Olerud363

That would be hilarious. Biggio 3.8 WAR. Espinal 3.7 WAR Toronto 90 wins TBR 90 wins but.... TBR makes playoffs based on some dumb tie breaker runs scored based on .1 of an extra win Biggio created.

Espinal has 12 PAs Biggio 5, despite the fact that the Blue Jays haven't a faced a lefty starter yet (lefty relievers yes). Maybe Keith Law is consulting with the Jays again?

Is Biggio injured? Biggio has 5 plate appearances. Tapia 8, Collins 3. No reason for this to happen. This is the type of thing that would cost the team a couple of WAR if it continued, like at this rate Biggio gets 200 plate appearances, and Tapia 350, Collins 150. That would cost some WAR assuming everyone plays at career rates. Assuming Biggio is healthy he needs regular at bats. No reason he can't get back to 2019/20 form.

If anyone is confused about Junior and my assessment of 5 implosions, when only 3 have happened so far, keep in mind that the root casue is Pete Walker's drinking problem. Junior is one of the sharpest minds on the board and has recognize the season ending implosion of all 5. Even though Manoah and Kikuchi haven't pitched yet, there is no way they make it out of the 2nd inning against the Yankees.

Don't worry Junior. I'm with you. All hope is lost. Every one of our starting pitchers has imploded because Pete Walker was too hammered to help them. Question is what do we do now? Do you think we should rebuild? Or a 2 year retool? This is kind of similar to what happened in 2013 (Ricky Romero, Josh Johnson, Brandom Morrow implosions). However this is worse with 5 implosions, at least then Buerhle and Dicky stabalized, and then we supplemented with Hutchison (who himself imploded), Stroman, Estrado and Price. If we can just salvage 2 of the starting 5 we can still have hope for 2024. Which 2 do you think can be saved?

Alas that is very unlikely. All pitchers have imploded Berrios - always a number 4 can't take pressure of #1, Ricky Romero implosion. Gausman - A number 1, one year, now implolsion, Josh Johnson implosion. Ryu - Also Ricky Romero implosion. Manoah - Ricky Romero implosion. Kikuchi - Ricky Romero implosion too, in fact he already pitched like imploded Ricky Romero half the time, now he really will lose it. Seems obvious what is happening is 4 Ricky Romero implosions and 1 Josh Johnson implosion, bold to predict against, only other people not predicting continued implosion are Mike Wilner, and a couple of the elitist Trudeau voters on this board

This seems super-dumb. They are moving the fence back 25 feet? Why? It was a hitters park but not extreme. It will be like "Ryan Mountcastle up to bat... kid hit 33 homers last year, this year 14. 12 on the road. " Anyone remember Citifield the first 2 or 3 years? What a disaster. Also while checking the parkfactor I noticed Jays beat Orioles in attendance. Jays 12/15 in attendance despite like a) playing 2 months in A+ park, two months a AAA park, and 2 months in Toronto mostly under dumb-ass restrictions ** (** not political, meant to say 'well thought out safety-first restrictions' just was typing too fast)

3. He hit awesome in 2019. Hasn't played in the minors really since. Things are still a bit messed up because of the missing 2020 minor league stats and shortened major league. Not like he's had 1000 at bats since 2019 and struggled in the minors. Not a lot of data here.

Humans suck. As a human I could inject the following adjustments and raise his projected WAR-- are they valid?? Maybe. Maybe not. 1. He was a 10th overall pick, must be something there. 2. Blue Jays scouts must not think his D is as bad as you do, or else they wouldn't have got him. 3. Lots of walks and homers in the minors, those are good 4. Lots of walks in the majors but not as many homers in the majors as you'd expect. So maybe some extra homers will still show up. 5. He's a big strong guy and Pat Tabler tells me those types have potential.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Ring is a ring and I never missed Kent too much, and he was traded two other times (both times for good players) before breaking out. In an alternative history Kent could have played 3rd instead of Sprague. In August 1992 Jays had Roberto Alomar 24, Olerud 23, Kent 24, Delgado 20, Green 20ish, Gonzales Would have been interesting to see those guys play together, all be given 150 games a year every year from the mid 90s until early 2000s

Every projection system has him at about 0.5 WAR in 40 games. That would help the team in the event of an injury. He was a 10th overall pick, and has a minor league on base of .380 and is a real big guy. Could be a very good hitter for a catcher, though his defense seems to rate terrible. It's also old scouts wisdom that you take a catcher or 3rd basemen, big guy, struggling with defense, but obvious eye at the plate and power, and just put them at DH and say 'hit boy' and they hit. The guy could get some Dh time if needed. I was going to say 'he reminds me of Ken Phelps', but even though I'm old, I was still only 3 or something when Ken Phelps was in his prime. So I looked up and Ken Phelps basically hit like Barry Bonds, when Phelps was in Wichita, so I guess Collins isn't Ken Phelps after all. Or maybe he is... and they just have to take him off catcher and let him slug.

Yeah. Totally agree. And my point wasn't that Cito ruined Homer Bush or anything. Cito took over as hitting coach in 2000 and I remember hearing this interview in mid 2000. Cito was going on about how the coach's had screwed homer up, and tried to make him walk too much and Cito would fix it. It was funny because Homer had been fine under the other coaches (even if it was luck).

I said that you idiot. "I am sure it wasn't all Gaston's fault, however it was typical Cito, promoting himself and claiming he was helping a player, when he clearly wasn't." I wasn't blaming Cito for ruining Homer Bush... he was Homer Bush. It was laughable because Cito had no idea that Homer had hit better under the old coach. He was blaming the old coach for something that didn't happen. And it was funny because Homer actually walked more under Cito in 2000 then he had before anyway.

Old Jeter or Pujols isn't the same as old Juan Samuel or Pat Tabler. The latter group were a dime a dozen and always seemed to find 250 at bats on Citos teams.

I totally agree this was idiotic. However I don't care much if it just happened once or twice. I tend to look at total plate appearances at the end of the season and judge by that. I guess Panic was an issue if I use that criteria. He was with the Jays 4.5 calender months and got 220 plate appearances. I guess that would be 330 over a season. Should those have gone to someone else? If this happens going forward. Like if a washed up Dexter Fowler is getting DH appearances that should be Kirk's then that will be a huge issue.

People could probably tell you 1 million stories. Here's one about Cito and Homer Bush. Homer Bush wasn't all that, probably somewhere around Tapia level, but he had a good year in 1999. Cito took over as hitting coach in 2000 and the team took a step back, Bush in particular. No one really noticed because Carlos Delgado was having a monster year, and the teams stats looked good by historical measure, but they were in fact below average. One time I heard Cito on the radio talking about how he was helping Homer Bush, he said Homer was trying to walk to much and the old coaches had messed him up. This was crazy. Homer didn't walk at all, and he hit .320 under the old coaches but .220 under Gaston. I am sure it wasn't all Gaston's fault, however it was typical Cito, promoting himself and claiming he was helping a player, when he clearly wasn't.

Montoyo's biggest challenge will be to allocate playing time among Biggio, Espinal, Tapia, Kirk, and later Groshans and Lopez will be in the mix. Dexter Fowler and Reese McGuire will be in the group too. This is where the manager can potentially cost a couple of wins, if they let the wrong players get too much playing time and negative WAR at the expense of better players. Not easy stuff. Totally possible Tapia could break out with a 3 WAR season, also possible he could be a negative WAR guy. Same with the others. Gotta give the right guys playing time while not being fooled by small sample size early season stuff.

This is just classic Grant. Cito didn't receive anything close to Universal praise and was hated by many. He had a poor record developing young players despite a good record working with older mid-career types (Devon White and Jose Bautista turn arounds are Cito's best work). I honestly believe this was because of his own experiences. Cito had a good season in 1970 and tanked in 71 (.260 on base) and never played much again. I think he had a blind spot for every 29+ year old sub .300 on base guy, because he saw himself in them, so wanted these guys to get 8 more shots at the expense of the real prospectgs... I've brought up the young left handed hitters, Olerud, Green, Delgado and Snider (yes even Delgado lost a few hundred at bats becasue of Cito's stupidity), but he also had a hard time with other guys, David Wells comes to mind. Cito threw away a lot of talent because of personal disputes. In 1992 he left David Wells in to get hammered, like 13 runs or something just because he hated Wells, the Jays ended up losing a very good pitcher for nothing, because of Cito's tendency to feud with players.

lol. Remember the 2009 "mutiny"?? Cito did not receive universal praise from his players. Even 92/93 there were issues. Yes Tabler, Carter loved him, a would anyone who got undeserved line up spots and playing time. Olerud, Snider, Green, Overbay and even Vernon Wells had issues with him. Many players and media absolutely hated Cito. https://www.thestar.com/opinion/2009/10/03/mutiny_in_blue_jays_clubhouse.html "If something of that magnitude comes out, obviously there's some truth behind what comes up," Wells admitted. "It's tough for something like that to be stirred up and completely be fabricated. I think some of the issues that go on need to stay in here and be taken care of as a group."

Anyway even if Charlie is a complete idiot, there is zero chance he'll have the opportunity to cost the team any wins at all. Charlie bunts, costing team 1/100 of a win. Shapiro and Atkins... lol... good old old Charlie. Charlie suggest hitting Tapia 1st and giving him 550 at bats. NO. Charlie not allowed to this. Charlie suggests letting Gaussman get 10 complete games... no Charlie not allowed to do that either. Charlie suggest making Reese McGuire full time catcher cuz he looks good back there. Not allowed to do this either. In 2022 Charlie won't be allowed to do anything stupid and impactful, only things stupid and irrelevant.

Point is I'm pretty convinced Cito Gaston was a narcosist who cost the team 5 wins a year and stunted the development of many young players. You often hear guys say how awesome it was to play for Cito. Those guys are named Pat Tabler or Juan Samuel or Kevin Millar who got 250 plate appearances and a final pay check because of Cito. I'm sure he seemed awesome to them, not so much to Green, Olerud, Snider and probably even Delgado who missed a few hundred at bats from 94-98 when he was obviously ready, got sent down after slumps.... compare to Guerrero who was given chance to work out of slumps.

Cito - that kid Hentgen is lookin' sharp... gonna see what happens if we let him go 140 pitches a game, 265 innings. Kid looks good. Charlie equivalent Charlie - that kid Berrios is lookin' sharp... gonna see what happens if we let go 140 pitches a game, 265 innings. Kit looks good.

Cito: Gotta play that kid Ruben Sierra and the kid Brumfield, and Joe Carter is slowing in the outrield so trade our 57 WAR** first basemen and put him at 1st base. Charlie equivalent would be Gotta play that kid Dexter Fowler and the kid Socrates Brito and Grichkuk is slowin' in the outfield so trade our young first basemen put him at first. ** (Cito didn't know Oleruds final WAR total but he went 8-3-3 then sat for Brumfield)

If Charlie starts collecting -5 in WAR by giving .280 on base guys a few hundred at bats then he'll reach Cito level. Until then bunting at the wrong time, isn't the same as... I don't know. Say giving Grichuk and Panik 500 at bats each and Socrates Brito 200, and say Tapia has a .250 on base and gets 300 at bats... mean while say Biggio and Kirk are getting and base and performing well, but Charlie sits them regularly... that would be Cito level, and I just don't see Charlie ever doing that.

I think Dokken was bitter about being called out for having faith in Eziquiel Cabrera. I can't remember the nature of the conversation however the situation is different. Cabrera somehow got regular time in the playoff hunt and playoffs in 2016 despite a bad season. I can't see that happening with Tapia. Tapia will be fighting it out with Bird, Kirk, Biggio, Espinal, Groshans, Moreno. They won't just stick Tapia in the outfield if he sucks. If Tapia sucks they'll reconfigure things a bit sending Biggio or Espinal to the outfield when they need an extra one, DHing someone else hot. So it's not like he'll be handed 350 plate appearances and key playoff at bats even if he sucks, which was the problem with Cabrera. It wasn't that he "couldn't" break out, it was that he "didn't" break out, but because of 0 depth he was forced to play.