jaysblue

You just keeping proving my point lol. In baseball, things could change quickly. You can't pass up on an opportunity when it arises. Sure sometimes it could work and sometimes it might not. With the 2021 team, you had breakouts from Vlad and Bo, Springer was still solid and two years younger than he is now, Manoah had a breakout season, Semien had a huge bounceback, Ray won the AL Cy Young, Teo had a monster year offensively, you traded for Berrios and I could go on. Wasted opportunity. Like I just pointed out, Kirk has turned into a pumpkin, Manoah s*** the bed, Springer is starting to show his age, Vladdy regressed significantly. We're in 2023 now, which is only TWO years from their 2021 season. I'll even use the example with guys like Gausman, who right now is pitching at an elite level and is one of the best SPs in the game. Can he continue pitching at this high level moving forward? Hopefully he does, but who knows maybe he's a bit off in 2024 or 2025 like has a 4 ERA or is maybe only worth 3 WAR instead of 6 WAR. You need to take advantage of the present when you have these core pieces in place, healthy, in their prime and when they're performing at their highest level. Every season that goes by where the Jays don't win a World Series, that window becomes smaller and smaller.

You're insufferable when you use the excuse that everyone is cheating like to explain why the Rays were having success or why someone threw a no-hitter lol.

You really love defending Atkins and this front office at all costs haha. We might never see a better opportunity for the Blue Jays to go on a deep Postseason run. It would have been great to see what that 2021 team could have done in the Postseason given their lineup and rotation. We're already starting to see the window for Jays get smaller - Chapman is a FA after 2023 and will be tough to replace, Vladdy isn't the same Vladdy from 2021, Bo is a FA after 2025, Gausman, Berrios, Bassitt will all be a year older, Springer is showing signs he's slowing down, Kirk not living up to his expectations with the bat, etc. Right now, it even looks like making the third WC spot is going to be a battle until the last couple days of the season. Let's hope the Jays could get in and things start to click in October where they could go on a deep run. Anything could happen. So if we go by this logic all the time, I guess we can apply that with AA during his time with the Blue Jays as well. You always give Atkins a free pass when something doesn't work out, so we can do the same with AA haha.

Isn't that the job of the front office to know that his peripherals weren't as strong as in the past, so there could be a chance he implodes? There is a reason why Hand cost nothing to acquire in the first place. Given the roster they had that season, it would have been better to aim higher on a true elite late inning reliever. It's frustrating because that 2021 window was probably the best one the Jays had. Hicks hasn't been as sharp so far with the Jays. He's obviously still going to be used as the closer until Romano gets back. If he doesn't show signs of improvement, then yes he moves down the depth charts behind other guys like Swanson, Mayza, and Green (once and if he comes back). I have no issue at all with them trading for Hicks. He can be erratic at times as he has shown during his time with the Cardinals. Same thing happened earlier this season - Hicks started off awful, the Cards moved him into lower leverage spots to work on some things and he rebounded.

Lmao of course you defend the Brad Hand acquisition in 2021. The issue wasn't acquiring Brad Hand for nothing. Hand already showed signs of decline beforehand, which is why they got him for nothing in the first place. His FIP and other peripherals showed he wasn't the same top BP arm he was from before. The issue was rolling with him as long as they did thinking he was an elite reliever from his prime days. They put him in many high leverage spots which cost them games and cost them the Postseason by ONE game! It's frustrating because that 2021 team likely was the best team on paper Atkins put together that could have went on a deep Postseason run with that fearful lineup and excellent starting rotation. I never criticized the Hicks trade. I actually liked the trade. Sure Hicks can be wild and can implode as he has shown in the past. If he shows signs of that, you push him back out of high leverage situations. You don't keep running him out there in the 8th or 9th innings of a one-run game then.

Freeman is probably one of the most underrated stars in baseball. He's just one of the best well-rounded hitters in the game. Can contend for a batting title every season, gets on-base, can hit for power, can steal around 15 bases. Seems like he gets better with age, like a rare or exclusive bottle of wine haha. That contract he signed 6 years, $162 million through 2027 was a bargain.

Belt and KK were coming off awful seasons and injuries, so they were a risk when signed here which is why they came at discounts. Jays definitely got lucky that both worked out and have provided excellent value. Those deals could have went the other way where Belt and/or KK were useless. Though will give Atkins credit on those signings to patch up the roster. I think Merrifield at 2 years/$25M would be fair if the Jays decided to bring him back. His age is only deterrent though hopefully that discounts him versus a player in their early 30s.

It's okay, the Jays have an off-day tomorrow and Thursday haha.

Yeah Ryu was cruising along, had a good pitch count and given the 8-2 lead, didn't hurt having him try for 6 innings.

Yeah and I wasn't a fan of AA when he did the Marlins deal, was one of his mistakes will admit that and call him out. I understand some of the logic - tough to lure big name FAs to Toronto at the time and the Marlins after going on a huge spending spree wanted to blow it up after a year. AA probably saw an opportunity. As well, its not like any of those prospects or players moved amounted to anything much. The organizational depth on this team right now is awful lol. Again its crazy how you're such an apologist for this front office. This should trigger you and your other homers: AA was a better GM and baseball mind during his time in Toronto than Atkins has been.

You write revisionist history all the time lmao when it comes to this team. Yes Atkins rushed to sign Morales to a 3-year deal/$33M early in the offseason because they were afraid of losing EE since his agent did turn down a deal. Sure can place some blame on EE's agent for the negotiations as well, but regardless should have been handled better by both sides. Who knows, maybe under AA they keep Edwin and other players are brought in to compliment the roster. We'll never know obviously. As for 2017, they still had a competitive window but like you said a lot went wrong. Was an aging roster, Tulo became broken, Bautista was done, Martin wasn't the same as in 2015 and 2016, a lot of injuries etc. Atkins still kept that window open before the season and didn't dismantle it, so it's not like they thought 2017 was going to be a lost year at the beginning. Unless you had a crystal ball, the team on paper still had a bit of a window in 2017. A lot went wrong during the season and yes then the writing was on the wall. Atkins should have traded Donaldson at the trade deadline in 2017 or at least the next offseason though didn't and lost out on getting better value.

You're avoiding the questions which is hilarious. You're saying AA traded for expensive FA contracts. What about Atkins using up $65M of the payroll for signed guys like Springer, Ryu and Bassitt for this season, who are all above 33. Blue Jays also have the 7th highest payroll in baseball right now. Pretty much the entire Jays rotation were free agents or were acquired via trade- Gausman, Bassitt, Kikuchi, Ryu, and Berrios who they traded and then extended. How much money is tied up to all of those arms? Manoah is really their only homegrown arm. How is the Jays farm system currently? It looks pretty bare to me so I don't understand how you can criticize AA for stripping down the Jays organizational depth while he was here, where you give Atkins a free pass. Unless Atkins pulls off some magic, things don't look that promising for the Jays after 2025.

I mean of course with experience, you become better at your craft and understand more than you did before. AA was still a great GM and baseball mind while he was here with the Jays. Yes he made some mistakes as every GM does, but it's shocking to see a lot of posters on here putting Atkins up higher than him. In terms of AA, you can argue a lot of what he did in Toronto in terms of contract extensions he's doing in Atlanta. It's not like he just discovered under the Dodgers lol. He signed Bautista and EE to team friendly contract extensions which doesn't get talked about enough. Similar to what he's doing in Atlanta now. On the trade front, AA has matured and probably has learned from his past mistakes in Toronto, will acknowledge that. We haven't seen him make a Marlins trade with the Braves.

Maybe in 2014 but there was no expanded WC format like there is today so would have been risky. Also, I know some core players like Bautista and others called out AA for not adding before the deadline to help the team, which I think definitely influenced AA to go big at the 2015 deadline when it came to upgrading the roster. A lot of trades made in 2015 definitely helped the Jays over the final two months. None of those Jays players and prospects traded didn't amount to much anyways afterwards, so it's not like those trades set the organization way back.

Did they really open up a short contention window? 2013 and 2014 didn't work out obviously but that's when AA decided to add to the roster. Who knows maybe in 2014 they add more at the trade deadline if they had the expanded WC format as they do now. You can count 2014 as a window if that's the case. No different than one of Atkins teams making the third WC spot or missing out by the Postseason by one game in 2021. As well, in 2015 and 2016 they had their window where they were legit World Series contenders. Who knows in 2017 if AA was still around what other moves he would have made to upgrade the roster. Atkins and Co. botched the EE negotiations that offseason and instead rushed to sign Morales which was a mistake. As well, once the 2017 season was a lost year and it became evident the window was probably closing, Atkins never traded Donaldson at the right time which definitely set the Jays back a bit in terms of adding to the farm system. Even under Atkins, the Jays have a short contention window. What happens to this team after 2025 when Bo leaves as a FA or Vladdy and many other core pieces? Do the Jays have the farm system to replace those guys?

Lmao why are you comparing AA with Ruben Amaro?

AA's teams came closer to a World Series than Atkins teams have during a period where it was tougher to make the Postseason. He put together a team in 2015 that actually looked like a World Series contender. AA made mistakes along the way. For sure he wasn't perfect here. Some of his trades didn't pan out, but it's not like the organization lost sleep after that huge Marlins trade before the 2013 season. Also, at the time many FAs didn't want to sign here, so the trading route was a way for the Jays to add big names. Where is the organizational depth of the Jays now by the way?

2 if you count 2016 since it was mostly AA's core in place. 2 trips to the ALCS, where the Jays were within striking distance of reaching the World Series for the first time since 1993. As well, making the Postseason in the old WC format which was more difficult than now. Maybe in 2014, the Jays add more at the deadline if it was the same WC format currently. AA brought the Jays closer to a World Series in a shorter time period more than Atkins has done in a longer period here. AA brought excitement back to Toronto with their Postseason runs, and that was integral after years of missing the Postseason. You could argue if it wasn't for AA, Blue Jays baseball wouldn't be as popular as it is today across the country! Atkins still has this season, 2024 and 2025, so he still has a window, though so far none of his teams have won a Postseason series (again not including the 2016 season), let alone a Postseason game.

108 K's in 56.1 innings. Crazy! Has a chance to reach 150 K's.

Yeah Cimber was definitely solid in 2021 and 2022 for us. Nothing against him at all. Just wasn't the type of high leverage arm this team needed at the time. Cimber is a nice 6th/7th inning guy, nothing more. Hand never worked out unfortunately. There were some warning signs of decline before the Jays acquired him, but yeah. That 2021 team was really good and it's a shame they never were able to play in the Postseason. Really think they could have done some damage.

Cimber wasn't an elite BP arm with huge K rates which is what they needed. He was and still is just a middle reliever. He's a nice piece, but nothing game changing. Also forgot to mention Brad Hand who cost the Jays how many games?

The 2021 team was probably the best window/opportunity to go on a deep run in the Postseason. Atkins failed to address the bullpen at the trade deadline, and it cost them by missing out by one game. Not sure if we'll see a better team in 2024 and 2025.

Lynn was pretty awful with the White Sox - 6.47 ERA and 5.21 FIP. Yes his K rate was solid but he wasn't an elite arm given the season he had to date. Dodgers just targeted him for innings and depth purposes. A team with a huge payroll can afford that luxury. You're only saying that now since Lynn has been lights out since joining the Dodgers. Keep in mind, Lynn's first three starts with the Dodgers were against Oakland, San Diego and Colorado. Far from elite lineups. Flaherty, who yeah I think is overrated, was a decent pickup for them - 1.8 fWAR, 9.10 K/9 and 4.12 FIP. So far with the Orioles, he's posted a 3.27 ERA and has 16 K's in 11 innings. Against two pretty good teams as well - the Blue Jays and the Astros. Astros could have used a Verlander more than anything.

He's given them innings - 145 IPs to date - which is valuable. He's ranked 6th in all of baseball, just behind Cole, Alcantara, Nola, Gallen and Webb. From looking at his game logs, when he's on he usually goes 6 or 7 innings, giving up 1 or 2 ER. When he has a off day, he still does give them 4-5 innings maybe giving up 4-5 ERs. Really his last start where he gave up 9 ER was his only blowup this season. 13 quality starts (hate using it as a stat) but he's up there in that category, tied with Castillo, Strider, Elder, Gilbert, and ahead of guys like Ohtani and Snell lol. Pretty much he's been a durable arm for them and eating up innings for them. He's been worth the $10M contract they signed him for.

Yeah I don't understand how his fWAR can be so high given his other numbers. His FIP is below 4 though. He has been durable and has given them 145 innings, which is 6th best in all of baseball. From looking at his game logs, he usually goes 6-7 innings on a good day, or he'll give up 4-5 ER in 4 to 5 innings. He's pretty much like Jekyll and Hyde. Otherwise his last start where he gave up 9 ER was really his only blowup this season. For the most part of his career, Gibson has been a 2-3 WAR pitcher.