Toronto Blue Jays @ Oakland Athletics (Game 1 of 3)

[jaysblue]

Out of all our RP's this year, Yimi is:

 

2nd in xFIP

5th in FIP (including Genesis)

3rd in K/9

3rd in BB/9 (including Genesis and Bowden)

2nd in IP

2nd in SIERA

2nd in avg EV (behind Jay Jackson)

2nd in HardHit%

3rd in Stuff+

5th in Pitching+

3rd in holds

 

Can't seem to find the inherited runners stranded stat, but we know he has a ton of those too (and a high % of stranding them).

 

I understand some recent frustration, but are people ripping Yimi based off his ERA? What year is it? Prepare to see Yimi in a lot more games this year, including the playoffs if we make it.

 

You guys love taking the bait haha.

 

Good post. He hasn't been that bad of a reliever. Sure there is recent frustration when he blows a lead, which does get magnified given that this team has put themselves in a position where they can't afford to lose or blow games down the stretch. I wouldn't be using him in high leverage spots in close games. I think he's better as a 6th/7th inning guy. But Schneider seems to like using 4-5 relievers per game and Garcia is one of his favourites he loves going to first.

[Spanky99]

You guys love taking the bait haha.

 

Good post. He hasn't been that bad of a reliever. Sure there is recent frustration when he blows a lead, which does get magnified given that this team has put themselves in a position where they can't afford to lose or blow games down the stretch. I wouldn't be using him in high leverage spots in close games. I think he's better as a 6th/7th inning guy. But Schneider seems to like using 4-5 relievers per game and Garcia is one of his favourites he loves going to first.

 

Yes, he goes to Yimi in the 6th/7th innings? Wtf... you just said that in your post?

[Brownie19]

You guys love taking the bait haha.

 

Good post. He hasn't been that bad of a reliever. Sure there is recent frustration when he blows a lead, which does get magnified given that this team has put themselves in a position where they can't afford to lose or blow games down the stretch. I wouldn't be using him in high leverage spots in close games. I think he's better as a 6th/7th inning guy. But Schneider seems to like using 4-5 relievers per game and Garcia is one of his favourites he loves going to first.

 

So you'd use him exactly how Schneider is currently? Good call.

[Spanky99]

So you'd use him exactly how Schneider is currently? Good call.

 

I had to read that twice, lmao.

[jaysblue]

Yes, he goes to Yimi in the 6th/7th innings? Wtf... you just said that in your post?

 

I stated in "close games" I wouldn't use him. Yesterday he was used in a high leverage situation in the 7th inning in a 3-2 game. Would have preferred to see Berrios go another inning or use another BP arm.

[jaysblue]

So you'd use him exactly how Schneider is currently? Good call.

 

I said I wouldn't use him in high leverage spots in close games. Yesterday he was used in a 3-2 game in the 7th inning.

 

You guys are hilarious. I love how you get so worked up about when someone criticizes Yimi Garcia. I knew you both and Max would take the bait haha. You guys are going to be defending him all day.

[Spanky99]

I stated in "close games" I wouldn't use him. Yesterday he was used in a high leverage situation in the 7th inning in a 3-2 game. Would have preferred to see Berrios go another inning or use another BP arm.

 

I'd have loved to see Berrios come out in the 7th, but here we are... our team's staff is run by analytics and Yimi is the guy they want, get used to it, man. He's a good pitcher. Jackson and Cabrera were used in the 8th and 9th. He gave up a dinger, move on. U aLsO sTatEd 6th and 7th innings.

[Spanky99]

I said I wouldn't use him in high leverage spots in close games. Yesterday he was used in a 3-2 game in the 7th inning.

 

You guys are hilarious. I love how you get so worked up about when someone criticizes Yimi Garcia. I knew you both and Max would take the bait haha. You guys are going to be defending him all day.

 

So trolling, gotcha.

[jaysblue]

I'd have loved to see Berrios come out in the 7th, but here we are... our team's staff is run by analytics and Yimi is the guy they want, get used to it, man. He's a good pitcher.

 

I said he was a good pitcher, but he has blown his fair share of games when he's put in a close game. I just wouldn't use him in high leverage situations. I understand if you have no choice obviously like if the bullpen is taxed etc. I know our team's staff is run by analytics and Schneider is a puppet down there. Don't agree with it. We're in September and the Jays lost several games when Garcia pitched which at the end of the day could be the difference of this team making the Postseason or not. That's frustrating.

[Spanky99]

*mY bRaIn HuRtS*

[jaysblue]

So trolling, gotcha.

 

I was defending Yimi Garcia yesterday and said he has been one the Blue Jays best bullpen arms this season. I was hoping Brownie19 and Max were going to "Thank" my posts.

[jaysblue]

*mY bRaIn HuRtS*

 

I didn't write an essay, c'mon man! Drink some coffee in the morning!

[Brownie19]

I was defending Yimi Garcia yesterday and said he has been one the Blue Jays best bullpen arms this season. I was hoping Brownie19 and Max were going to "Thank" my posts.

 

Except we're not stupid and we know you're being sarcastic. Everything suggests Yimi is one of the best relivers on the team - except his ERA and we know you struggle to understand the element of luck that's involved in the game of baseball. Taking Garcia (or any pitcher) out of certain situations based on recency bias is pretty stupid. When you play roulette and it's come up 'black' 3 times in a row, do you bet colours thinking you have the edge over the house?

 

Are you taking Richards out of high leverage too? His ERA is 6.75 since August 1st (even though he has the 2nd best xFIP). Are you letting Genesis close out games? He has the lowest ERA in our pen since August 1st (dispite having one of the highest xFIP's). I'm curious how you'd run this bullpen.

 

You can say "you took the bait", but I'm just responding to fact less opinions - with you know, facts.

[jaysblue]

Except we're not stupid and we know you're being sarcastic. Everything suggests Yimi is one of the best relivers on the team - except his ERA and we know you struggle to understand the element of luck that's involved in the game of baseball. Taking Garcia (or any pitcher) out of certain situations based on recency bias is pretty stupid. When you play roulette and it's come up 'black' 3 times in a row, do you bet colours thinking you have the edge over the house?

 

Are you taking Richards out of high leverage too? His ERA is 6.75 since August 1st (even though he has the 2nd best xFIP). Are you letting Genesis close out games? He has the lowest ERA in our pen since August 1st (dispite having one of the highest xFIP's). I'm curious how you'd run this bullpen.

 

You can say "you took the bait", but I'm just responding to fact less opinions - with you know, facts.

 

I'm pretty rational when it comes to discussing baseball and have a solid understanding of the game, statistics, etc. However, if I criticize one thing about this front office or team, you and your brigade of FO defenders come out like cockroaches and just use the rhetoric that we're all idiots for criticizing the FO any way. You go on the attack instead of actually having discussion or debate which becomes insufferable. You're a nice guy but you're too much sometimes man!

[Stangstag]

Except we're not stupid and we know you're being sarcastic. Everything suggests Yimi is one of the best relivers on the team - except his ERA and we know you struggle to understand the element of luck that's involved in the game of baseball. Taking Garcia (or any pitcher) out of certain situations based on recency bias is pretty stupid. When you play roulette and it's come up 'black' 3 times in a row, do you bet colours thinking you have the edge over the house?

 

Are you taking Richards out of high leverage too? His ERA is 6.75 since August 1st (even though he has the 2nd best xFIP). Are you letting Genesis close out games? He has the lowest ERA in our pen since August 1st (dispite having one of the highest xFIP's). I'm curious how you'd run this bullpen.

 

You can say "you took the bait", but I'm just responding to fact less opinions - with you know, facts.

 

Not that I disagree…

 

But im pretty sure people were saying the same s*** about Chatwood in 2021. He was electric in April, and then we continued to use him in tight games in May and he blew a handful and we know what happened.

 

We always talk about relievers being fickle. They can absolutely go through rough patches.

 

Yimi has been pretty jeckyl/hyde lately, unreliable. But he’s being used properly IMO. He’s like 4th/5th on the depth chart. At some point these guys have to produce, can’t use Romano every game. (Romano was kinda bad yesterday too and we’re lucky)

[Spanky99]

I didn't write an essay, c'mon man! Drink some coffee in the morning!

 

Glass of milk was suffice, I don't drink that s***.

[Spanky99]

(Romano was kinda bad yesterday too and we’re lucky)

 

Nah, he was fine.

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/wins.aspx?date=2023-09-04&team=Athletics&dh=0&season=2023

[BigCecil]

Not that I disagree…

 

But im pretty sure people were saying the same s*** about Chatwood in 2021. He was electric in April, and then we continued to use him in tight games in May and he blew a handful and we know what happened.

 

We always talk about relievers being fickle. They can absolutely go through rough patches.

 

Yimi has been pretty jeckyl/hyde lately, unreliable. But he’s being used properly IMO. He’s like 4th/5th on the depth chart. At some point these guys have to produce, can’t use Romano every game. (Romano was kinda bad yesterday too and we’re lucky)

 

Too true. To my ever living shame I even started a "Tyler Chatwood Appreciation thread" then. The low point was Buntoyo leaving him in to BB away into an L to prove a point, after a Chatwood hissy fit.

[Brownie19]

Not that I disagree…

 

But im pretty sure people were saying the same s*** about Chatwood in 2021. He was electric in April, and then we continued to use him in tight games in May and he blew a handful and we know what happened.

 

We always talk about relievers being fickle. They can absolutely go through rough patches.

 

Yimi has been pretty jeckyl/hyde lately, unreliable. But he’s being used properly IMO. He’s like 4th/5th on the depth chart. At some point these guys have to produce, can’t use Romano every game. (Romano was kinda bad yesterday too and we’re lucky)

 

I agree with that - except the sample size has to be really small to get 'bad recent results' from Yimi. From August 1st (his last 12 innings), his xFIP is still 4th amongst our RPers, FIP is 3rd, K% is 1st, BB% is 5th - even his ERA is at 3.00. Even if you most if to August 15th, the numbers don't really drop much. It's literally been his last 2 outings. I'm not going to blame Schneider for using him in high leverage yesterday simply because he didn't pitch well when he last pitched on Saturday. He'd come off 9 straight appearances without giving up an ER and had only given up 1 in his last 12 appearances.

 

This isn't Chatwood. Now he has given up ERs in his last 2 appearances. I highly doubt it's a smart idea to pull him from high leverage situations moving forward based on those last 2 outings, but yes, if the situation presents itself, it would be nice to get him a clean inning in a low leverage situation over the next few games.

 

I'm not even sure who you guys want to use instead. Looks like we're playing with fire with Genesis, Mayza's recent results aren't great (K's way down, BB way up) - so not sure who's taking Garcia's role unless you're ready to put Chad Green into it. Richards has been touched up more than Garcia lately, so I assume by the same rational, he's not an option.

[max silver]

Too true. To my ever living shame I even started a "Tyler Chatwood Appreciation thread" then. The low point was Buntoyo leaving him in to BB away into an L to prove a point, after a Chatwood hissy fit.

 

It's too bad the manager decided to throw a game away to upstage one of his players. It would really have hurt if the 2021 team missed the playoffs by a single game or something.

[Laika]

Anecdotally, Garcia misses in the middle of the plate too much and that is why he gets hit.

 

But there is a huge element of luck in even that. Pitchers will get away with meatballs at some rate. How often you get "punished" can be pretty random.

 

If he was very "hittable" you would expect it to show up in his barrel rate against, or hard contact rate against, or something like that. But it doesn't.

 

Instead it looks like his LD% against, BABIP against, and HR/FB against are just.... unluckily high.

 

You can also tell helpful anecdotes. Like this: his stuff looks really good most of the time and his command is solid.

 

And then some of the more modern stats back up the helpful anecdotes. His Stuff+ is #3 of the current RP corps (a hair above Mayza) and his Pitching+ is #4.

 

Honestly, it does just seem like he has been getting unlucky in specific spots this year.

 

4.11 ERA

3.61 xERA

3.44 FIP (#5 reliever on team if you count Cabrera's Blue Jays sample)

3.15 xFIP (#2 reliever on team)

 

 

lmao

 

congrats to John Schneider and the team for not falling victim to troublesome anecdotal reasoning.

[Stangstag]

I agree with that - except the sample size has to be really small to get 'bad recent results' from Yimi. From August 1st (his last 12 innings), his xFIP is still 4th amongst our RPers, FIP is 3rd, K% is 1st, BB% is 5th - even his ERA is at 3.00. Even if you most if to August 15th, the numbers don't really drop much. It's literally been his last 2 outings. I'm not going to blame Schneider for using him in high leverage yesterday simply because he didn't pitch well when he last pitched on Saturday. He'd come off 9 straight appearances without giving up an ER and had only given up 1 in his last 12 appearances.

 

This isn't Chatwood. Now he has given up ERs in his last 2 appearances. I highly doubt it's a smart idea to pull him from high leverage situations moving forward based on those last 2 outings, but yes, if the situation presents itself, it would be nice to get him a clean inning in a low leverage situation over the next few games.

 

I'm not even sure who you guys want to use instead. Looks like we're playing with fire with Genesis, Mayza's recent results aren't great (K's way down, BB way up) - so not sure who's taking Garcia's role unless you're ready to put Chad Green into it. Richards has been touched up more than Garcia lately, so I assume by the same rational, he's not an option.

 

Everyone in the pen seems to be struggling right now. The management has been ok it just looks bad since everyone is bleeding runs.

 

The one thing i’d like to see improved is to stop bringing guys back out for a 2nd inning after sitting on the bench for way too long. Like Romano last night, that top half inning was way too long and he was clearly rusty coming back out. They were using Yimi like that alot earlier in the year and it almost never worked out

[max silver]

Not that I disagree…

 

But im pretty sure people were saying the same s*** about Chatwood in 2021. He was electric in April, and then we continued to use him in tight games in May and he blew a handful and we know what happened.

 

We always talk about relievers being fickle. They can absolutely go through rough patches.

 

Yimi has been pretty jeckyl/hyde lately, unreliable. But he’s being used properly IMO. He’s like 4th/5th on the depth chart. At some point these guys have to produce, can’t use Romano every game. (Romano was kinda bad yesterday too and we’re lucky)

 

I don't think Yimi deserves the type of consternation sent his way. Heading into last night's game with the A's he had a 3 month run where he was MLB's 15th most valuable reliever by FWAR effectively tied for 7th place with 1.0 FWAR. There is constant grousing about how he is the team's 8th best reliever where he had an extended stretch of games where he was basically tied as the 7th most valuable reliever in all of MLB. Talk about a massive disconnect between perception and reality.

[Brownie19]

I'm pretty rational when it comes to discussing baseball and have a solid understanding of the game, statistics, etc. However, if I criticize one thing about this front office or team, you and your brigade of FO defenders come out like cockroaches and just use the rhetoric that we're all idiots for criticizing the FO any way. You go on the attack instead of actually having discussion or debate which becomes insufferable. You're a nice guy but you're too much sometimes man!

 

I'm sorry, but if you understood baseball and statistics, you wouldn't be criticizing the FO for using Garcia in high leverage situations.

 

You simply made some comments about Garcia and I presented some facts that suggest otherwise. If you're rational in discussing baseball, that shouldn't throw you into defense mode, it should initiate more discussion. You could perhaps point out something I'm overlooking. The best argument was likely that Berrios should have continues - not that using Garcia was a bad call (if you're going to use the bullpen in that situation). You could have showed some statistics supporting that position (if they exist).

 

Me countering one of your posts isn't me and the brigade coming after you. It's to create discussion. If we all agreed with everything others said, there'd be no discussion.

[Stangstag]

Anecdotally, Garcia misses in the middle of the plate too much and that is why he gets hit.

 

But there is a huge element of luck in even that. Pitchers will get away with meatballs at some rate. How often you get "punished" can be pretty random.

 

If he was very "hittable" you would expect it to show up in his barrel rate against, or hard contact rate against, or something like that. But it doesn't.

 

Instead it looks like his LD% against, BABIP against, and HR/FB against are just.... unluckily high.

 

You can also tell helpful anecdotes. Like this: his stuff looks really good most of the time and his command is solid.

 

And then some of the more modern stats back up the helpful anecdotes. His Stuff+ is #3 of the current RP corps (a hair above Mayza) and his Pitching+ is #4.

 

Honestly, it does just seem like he has been getting unlucky in specific spots this year.

 

4.11 ERA

3.61 xERA

3.44 FIP (#5 reliever on team if you count Cabrera's Blue Jays sample)

3.15 xFIP (#2 reliever on team)

 

 

lmao

 

congrats to John Schneider and the team for not falling victim to troublesome anecdotal reasoning.

 

He seems to get blown up for 2-3 at bats, then he’ll strike out the side. Always seems to take a hitter or 2 for him to settle in. Not sure I like him as the “fireman” with guys on base. Leaves him 0 margins for error.

 

Yesterday’s game was fine. A solo shot. Fine whatever.

[max silver]

He seems to get blown up for 2-3 at bats, then he’ll strike out the side. Always seems to take a hitter or 2 for him to settle in. Not sure I like him as the “fireman” with guys on base. Leaves him 0 margins for error.

 

Yesterday’s game was fine. A solo shot. Fine whatever.

 

Eventually I could see Green joining Yimi as becoming another fireman option, but for the time being Garcia has done a tremendous job in the role. He's stranded 24 of 29 inherited runners this season, which is the third highest strand rate among all MLB relievers. Yimi seems to get himself into trouble a little more frequently than you would prefer but that doesn't detract from the excellent job he's done cleaning up other pitchers messes.

[Omar]

Too true. To my ever living shame I even started a "Tyler Chatwood Appreciation thread" then. The low point was Buntoyo leaving him in to BB away into an L to prove a point, after a Chatwood hissy fit.