Trevor Bauer and Moustakas became FA

[Jonn]

People forget how Liberal Toronto is. The moment there’s even a whisper the Jays would think about signing Bauer it would be absolutely shut down. Twitter and Facebook would see record traffic numbers.

 

But f*** it would be so sick if they did it.

[L54]

There’s zero chance Toronto signs him.

[Terminator]

What are the long term ramifications of signing him exactly? Nobody has said what those would be, just that they exist

 

The journalists will be very mad online

[L54]

The journalists will be very mad online

 

Lol that is almost the entire extent of it

[wilko]

The journalists will be very mad online

 

[Terminator]

Would be worth it for the Keith Law meltdown alone

[TheHurl]

People forget how Liberal Toronto is. The moment there’s even a whisper the Jays would think about signing Bauer it would be absolutely shut down. Twitter and Facebook would see record traffic numbers.

.

 

The Jays are in the works to return the GAB program, would be a crazy reactions to say we are committed to growing the sport for Women and Girls... followed by "Hey Trevor pitched great last night". But there is zero indication that there is a bottom line hit from these types of incidents in other sports or MLB. It's all repuatational hits. Which we have learned have all gone away. They will be brought up every time Bauer pitches, and especially when he gets rocked, but fewer each time. The Astros and time, managed those just fine (amazing how beating the Yankees can make you a feel-good story).

 

There may be employees of the team who are not Atkins or Shapiro that disagree with Bauer coming and will leave (actually a smart thing to do if you are looking to leave as they need to pay you out to get you to sign a non-disclosure). The Raptors once nixed a trade because a female member of Junior Management shared a story about the player to Masai. Masai chose the employee over the trade.

 

The biggest one that hasn't even been mentioned yet is what if Trevor has another incident or is accused of having another incident. That becomes one or both of Shatkins jobs on the line.

 

It's a lot to deal with for a player that JimCanuck has irrevocably said will be terrible.

[L54]

All good points Hurl especially the one about if there is another incident BUT how easy is it to plant an accuser in order to do harm to the player of the organization? Believe all women is a nasty road that should never be travelled and the burden of proof falls on the accuser. Impossible to defend against and could pop at any moment.

[L54]

 

That’s what they call a face only a mother could love

[Laika]

All good points Hurl especially the one about if there is another incident BUT how easy is it to plant an accuser in order to do harm to the player of the organization? Believe all women is a nasty road that should never be travelled and the burden of proof falls on the accuser. Impossible to defend against and could pop at any moment.

 

It’s impossible for Bauer to defend. But the easiest thing in the world for an MLB org to defend against. Just don’t sign him!

 

Even if he’s completely innocent he’s still wayyyy more likely now to have similar stuff happen to him

[L54]

It’s impossible for Bauer to defend. But the easiest thing in the world for an MLB org to defend against. Just don’t sign him!

 

Even if he’s completely innocent he’s still wayyyy more likely now to have similar stuff happen to him

 

Yup this is valid for sure. The only argument I’ve seen that holds some weight.

[Krylian]

That’s what they call a face only a mother could love

 

His mom hates him too.

[Spanky99]

I didn't know this....very interesting. Anyone with a subscription want to post the full story?

 

Sarris: Across MLB, spin rates are back up near their peak. Is the sticky stuff here to stay?

 

Jul 28, 2021; Cleveland, Ohio, USA; MLB third base umpire Ramon De Jesus, left, and second base umpire Chris Guccione, right, check the equipment of Cleveland Indians pitcher James Karinchak (99) during the ninth inning against the St. Louis Cardinals at Progressive Field. Mandatory Credit: Scott Galvin-USA TODAY Sports

By Eno Sarris

Sep 14, 2022

182

 

Save Article

Is the battle against spin hopeless? Spin rates around baseball are climbing back up — almost back to where they were before baseball started to more actively enforce the foreign substance rules mid-season last year — and it’s probably due to some sort of evolution in the sticky solutions used by pitchers to augment their stuff.

 

And the reality is that’s only one of the ways pitchers have the edge over their counterparts at the plate right now, some of whom are increasingly frustrated about the situation.

 

“Pitchers have the ultimate advantage right now, with sticky stuff, the dead ball, and humidors,” lamented one major league hitter recently.

 

Last June, MLB made the seemingly unprecedented decision to ramp up enforcement of a pre-existing rule about using foreign substances to doctor the ball. There was immediately a precipitous drop in spin rates, but a mere two months later, we started to see players adjust to the enforcement method — consisting mostly of a check of the hat and belt — and regain some of their old spin rates. About a fifth of the players that saw a huge drop mid-season got their spin back late last year.

 

So baseball upped the enforcement this season and started touching pitchers’ hands. Which of course led to some tension, at least with certain pitchers.

 

 

The thinking is clear: the stickiest stuff leads to the biggest increases in spin rate (which in turn leads to the most dramatic increases in stuff) and so a check of the hand should keep anyone from using a substance that they can’t get off their hands quickly. If you’ve touched pine tar or Spider Tack — which was developed to help strongmen grip Atlas Stones during The World’s Strongest Man competitions — you know you can’t get it off easily. So, check the hands, stop the crazy-level cheating. That makes sense.

 

But it looks like pitchers have found something clear and wipeable that gives them more of a boost than sunscreen and rosin, because spin rate is back up in baseball. Almost back to where it was before enforcement started.

 

 

 

The highest and lowest points in league-average spin rate in the spin-rate tracking era are both on this graph, so it’s not a trick of the y-axis: spin took a huge drop after enforcement, and then it started to creep back to past levels almost immediately. Adjusting for velocity, because velocity and spin are interrelated, creates the same graph. This is a real effect.

 

“It’s really obvious,” said a hitting coach who then rattled off examples of pitchers who had come to town recently and used some sort of substance.

 

But pitchers aren’t back to the extreme days of Spider Tack. You have to go through 51 pitcher seasons before you get to this year’s highest four-seam spin rate, and then another 123 pitcher seasons before you get to this year’s second-highest spin rate. The very top spin rates have been eliminated, but pitchers seem to be finding something that’s almost as good.

 

A league source confirmed this is something they are monitoring closely, but there is an obvious question they have to debate as they consider the way forward. What more can they do? Consider this breakdown of perhaps the most detailed frisking of a pitcher in modern memory: James Karinchak has been accused of using something in his hair to gain spin, and his spin rates are up (almost back to pre-enforcement levels). The umpire literally touches his hair upon request of the opposing manager.

 

 

“Of course it is,” said another major league hitter when presented with the evidence that spin is back up. “The umpire checks are almost useless.”

 

But that umpire check seems pretty thorough. If that’s useless, what more could umpires do? This is basically the same sort of frisking that MMA fighters get before a fight, which is fairly intimate and thorough. And yet it doesn’t seem to be working.

 

“I think they need to hire MLB officials that sit in the dugout or bullpen and do serious checks,” suggested a hitter.

 

Others thought more eyes on the field could help.

 

“If anyone really cared about this, they could put an umpire behind the mound that could step in and do spot checks at any moment,” said a hitting coach, pointing out there are pitchers with solutions on their pants that help dissolve sticky stuff before the hand inspections.

 

The union wouldn’t comment on any negotiations concerning sticky stuff enforcement, nor would the league comment on any additional moves they might make to remedy the situation. Each potential additional solution has drawbacks, too.

 

There are already MLB officials that move around the clubhouse in order to monitor things like the storage and rubbing of the baseballs, and also officials that do random dugout sweeps for sign-stealing technology, but if they’re checking pitchers who have already stepped off the mound, they’re not likely to find much. That seems too similar to what umpires are already doing.

 

An umpire right behind the mound that could step in and check a pitcher between acquiring their sticky stuff and throwing the ball might actually stop the practice cold, but would also be completely new to the sport. Baseball went to a four-umpire system for all regular season games in 1952, at least, so it’s been a while.

 

But before either side agrees to something more radical, there’s another question that has to be considered. Who exactly cares enough to push that kind of change?

 

Selective enforcement of the rules is not ideal in any context, but in a sport with unwritten rules, there have always been slight differences between what’s in the rule book and what happens on the field. Baseball made a push to eliminate steroids from the game, but steroids produced players that looked different and broke hallowed numbers. Is sticky stuff really in the same category?

 

The sport is trying to change the play on the field and increase balls in play at the cost of reducing strikeouts, so reducing spin would help that effort. There’s a link between spin rate and results, but we’re talking about a strikeout percentage point or two when we talk about removing sticky stuff from the game, and that’s been borne out by play on the field. This isn’t a very effective way to reduce strikeout rates across the game.

 

Then there’s just raw interest in the whole thing. Though this story did break through and capture the national interest for a short time, it seems to have receded from the spotlight recently, as this graph from Google Trends shows.

 

 

 

There is, of course, a group that still cares a lot: Major league hitters (and their hitting coaches) care, especially when it comes to the link between spin rate and stuff and the more complicated history of the rise of hit-by-pitches within the game, and they aren’t necessarily largely happy to let things lie as they are.

 

But in the face of limited benefit to the game, perhaps limited interest from the fans, and difficult precedent-changing enforcement decisions, the road forward for baseball isn’t clear. Maybe capping spin rates below the extremes we saw when Spider Tack reigned will be good enough for the sport — if not for its hitters.

 

...

[Brownie19]

I think you'd have to be a moron to think the Jays wouldn't take a massive PR hit by signing Bauer

 

Did I suggest the Jays would sign him? I'm just questioning whether the 'risk' is actually real or not. Watson, Vick, Astros, etc. have all somewhat shown that while there is some initial backlash, it's all short lived and I'm not so sure there's actually any financial or reputation repercussions. There certainly are some perceived repercussions and FULLY expect the Rogers won't touch him. I really do have a hard time believing that when it comes down to it that a significant % of the population would have strong, negative feelings about signing Bauer.

 

Again - a team literally just traded a f***ton of assets for Deshawn Watson and made him the highest paid player in football and the face of their franchise after like 22-24 woman accused him of sexual assault.

[Jays24]

Sign the man... if the performance doesn't outweigh the noise, cut him then. Enough of treating this guy like he murdered children already lol.

[Spanky99]

People forget how Liberal Toronto is. The moment there’s even a whisper the Jays would think about signing Bauer it would be absolutely shut down. Twitter and Facebook would see record traffic numbers.

 

But f*** it would be so sick if they did it.

 

No way Toronto signs him, that's a given. Sure would be nice at League Min, lol.

[max silver]

Did I suggest the Jays would sign him? I'm just questioning whether the 'risk' is actually real or not. Watson, Vick, Astros, etc. have all somewhat shown that while there is some initial backlash, it's all short lived and I'm not so sure there's actually any financial or reputation repercussions. There certainly are some perceived repercussions and FULLY expect the Rogers won't touch him. I really do have a hard time believing that when it comes down to it that a significant % of the population would have strong, negative feelings about signing Bauer.

 

Again - a team literally just traded a f***ton of assets for Deshawn Watson and made him the highest paid player in football and the face of their franchise after like 22-24 woman accused him of sexual assault.

 

Football is akin to religion south of the border. Accordingly the NFL is nearly exempt from the types of pressure faced by the rest of industry in North America.

[Spanky99]

Would be worth it for the Keith Law meltdown alone

 

lol... that's coming no matter who signs him. There'll be a long line after him too.

[Brownie19]

Football is akin to religion south of the border. Accordingly the NFL is nearly exempt from the types of pressure faced by the rest of industry in North America.

 

Yeah I'm not buying that God declared the NFL exempt from cancel culture.

[max silver]

Yeah I'm not buying that God declared the NFL exempt from cancel culture.

 

The NHL is pretty damn close to immune to cancel culture though. That league and it's players receive infinitely more latitude than every other entertainment related business in this continent.

[Brownie19]

The NHL is pretty damn close to immune to cancel culture though. That league and it's players receive infinitely more latitude than every other entertainment related business in this continent.

 

I assume you mean NFL?

[connorp]

All good points Hurl especially the one about if there is another incident BUT how easy is it to plant an accuser in order to do harm to the player of the organization? Believe all women is a nasty road that should never be travelled and the burden of proof falls on the accuser. Impossible to defend against and could pop at any moment.

 

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me

He needs to not put himself in that position ever again. Or at least find a girl that’s willing to go on video for the whole thing. Or a hidden camera idk

 

Rape is a hard thing to accuse someone if you can’t place them alone somewhere. So he needs to be smart. I would say with some confidence it’s very unlikely something like this happens again

[max silver]

I assume you mean NFL?

 

Damnit I caught that mistake the first time around but missed it in the follow-up post. I definitely don't think the NHL is any less susceptible to cancel culture than other leagues given how relatively niche the league is.

[connorp]

Football is akin to religion south of the border. Accordingly the NFL is nearly exempt from the types of pressure faced by the rest of industry in North America.

 

Not sure that’s true. Football has far, far more casual female fans than any other sport. It’s just a matter of one bending to the pressure more than the other. Mlb vs NFL I mean

[Krylian]

Football is akin to religion south of the border. Accordingly the NFL is nearly exempt from the types of pressure faced by the rest of industry in North America.

 

It's cause half of that league are degenerates. You'd have to shut it down completely.

[Dick_Pole]

LOL the NHL definitely gets more leeway. Junior hockey players have been getting away with gangbangs for years and Hockey Canada is...kinda...sorta...looking into it now. With the same amount of fervor and zeal one would expect when the world's first masculine feminist government leader makes ever sold bold threats against you.

[Dick_Pole]

Regarding Bauer and the age debate. It's an interesting one. Bauer is known as one of the most specialized and least athletic baseball players there is. Now does that mean he will age particularly poorly or Bartolo Colon his way to a 20 year career.

[Dick_Pole]

I don't think it was this thread. But I read in one of them that Boston is a prime destination for Bauer. Then someone started chiming in with Boston being a liberal city. In voting patterns maybe. But not when it comes to inviting in degenerates and being degenerates themselves. Known as the most racist city in the north. Remember that time that dude threw a beer can at the World Series trophy and damaged it? No? That's because that behaviour is so par for the course from the fan base it's not even a big deal. Bauer would fit in just fine at Fenway. Well maybe not so much pitching half his games at Fenway.

[Carlos Danger]

I don't think it was this thread. But I read in one of them that Boston is a prime destination for Bauer. Then someone started chiming in with Boston being a liberal city. In voting patterns maybe. But not when it comes to inviting in degenerates and being degenerates themselves. Known as the most racist city in the north. Remember that time that dude threw a beer can at the World Series trophy and damaged it? No? That's because that behaviour is so par for the course from the fan base it's not even a big deal. Bauer would fit in just fine at Fenway. Well maybe not so much pitching half his games at Fenway.

 

Kennedy killed a girl and they voted for him for 40 yrs. At least Bauer didn’t kill anyone…

[Krylian]

Kennedy killed a girl and they voted for him for 40 yrs. At least Bauer didn’t kill anyone…

 

That we know of...