General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[Jays24]

Oh was it? Backpedaling now eh

 

No, varsho was absolutely horrible last year and a big reason why our offense was putrid. Getting that output from LF was a joke.

 

Entire comment was made that KK could have provided exactly what Varsho is but could have saved us Moreno/Gurriel who we could have used to gain an actual impact player.

[Eat My Shatkins]

We would have batted his ass 10th last year if it was possible. Also, we are hoping he could improve next season into a league average bat. Yayy Varsho lol.

 

He had an 85 wRC+ bat last season

 

Not nearly as abysmal as you like to exaggerate it

 

He projects well too

[Rusty_Savage]

The Pillar comment was tongue and cheek lol. Whole point was that we could have gotten a player to fill the CF void for a lot cheaper, plain and simple.

 

And funny how you're quick to say Moreno spent several seasons with a Pillar type bat when he just finished his first season as a pro and absolutely tore it up in the playoffs when things matter MUCH MORE.

 

We aren't going to agree here... enjoy Varsho lol.

 

He tore it up in the playoffs? I mean he hit a couple of dandy home runs but I wouldn't call a .238/.304/.444 slash line with a .748 OPS tearing it up. Would you?

 

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[max silver]

The Pillar comment was tongue and cheek lol. Whole point was that we could have gotten a player to fill the CF void for a lot cheaper, plain and simple.

 

And funny how you're quick to say Moreno spent several seasons with a Pillar type bat when he just finished his first season as a pro and absolutely tore it up in the playoffs when things matter MUCH MORE.

 

We aren't going to agree here... enjoy Varsho lol.

 

Moreno didn't tear things up in the playoffs, he ended with a 100 wRC+, placing him 40th among all players who played in the post season. This was only 5th on the Diamonbacks behind Pham who ended up 103 wRC+. This is remarkably close to Daulton Varsho's 96 wRC+ career value who you are calling a throwaway player, yet for Moreno you are acting like he's Aaron Judge behind the plate.

[Jays24]

He had an 85 wRC+ bat last season

 

Not nearly as abysmal as you like to exaggerate it

 

He projects well too

 

And with standards like that is the reason why we knew games were over when the other team scored 3 runs on us lol.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Jays24 and the hyperbole

 

In every single post, it's hilarious

[max silver]

Jays24 and the hyperbole

 

In every single post, it's hilarious

 

The guy's brain is missing the logic center, all he's capable of is firing off a stream of emotional overreactions.

[Jays24]

He tore it up in the playoffs? I mean he hit a couple of dandy home runs but I wouldn't call a .238/.304/.444 slash line with a .748 OPS tearing it up. Would you?

 

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I would for a rookie who also shuts down the running game behind the plate. We all know offensive numbers dip in the playoffs for most so seeing his overall output was encouraging. What were Varsho's playoff numbers btw? Lol

[Jays24]

Jays24 and the hyperbole

 

In every single post, it's hilarious

 

Agreed that I'm going to the extreme but feel like you have to sometimes to make a point on the internet lol.

[max silver]

I would for a rookie who also shuts down the running game behind the plate. We all know offensive numbers dip in the playoffs for most so seeing his overall output was encouraging. What were Varsho's playoff numbers btw? Lol

 

Moreno has a career wRC+ value of 104 in the regular season. This barely above league average offensive performer is the guy you are absolutely losing your mind over. Varsho has a career wRC+ value of 96. This is a whopping 8 point difference.

[burlingtonbandit]

Moreno has a career wRC+ value of 104 in the regular season. This barely above league average offensive performer is the guy you are absolutely losing your mind over. Varsho has a career wRC+ value of 96. This is a whopping 8 point difference.

 

Well to be fair that’s quite a bit better when you compare the average catcher offence vs a CF offence.

 

Finding a catcher that can hit and be good defensively is extremely difficult.

[The Cats Ass]

I actually watched a good amount of Arizona games in 2022, not to watch them but mostly because I was watching for other teams, a lot of Dodgers and Padres, plus other various teams. I probably ended up watching between 50 and 60 Diamondbacks games just in 2022. Maybe 25 or 30 the year before. I'm a bit of a night owl so I catch a lot of West coast games. Dude can play defense but he's not special. I don't consider him impact even in his better seasons.

 

28th highest WAR among batters isn't impact?

[Rusty_Savage]

I would for a rookie who also shuts down the running game behind the plate. We all know offensive numbers dip in the playoffs for most so seeing his overall output was encouraging. What were Varsho's playoff numbers btw? Lol

You have an odd definition of tearing it up. His overall performance was very average at the plate.

 

If you're looking for recent rookies who *actually* tore it up, Jeremy Pena in 2022 or Arozerana in 2020 actually are. Moreno wasn't even close

 

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[max silver]

Well to be fair that’s quite a bit better when you compare the average catcher offence vs a CF offence.

 

Finding a catcher that can hit and be good defensively is extremely difficult.

 

Good thing the Jays have one catcher who averaged 121 wRC+ over the last 3 seasons (Jansen), and another who averaged 113 wRC+ over the last 3 seasons (Kirk).

[The Cats Ass]

Well to be fair that’s quite a bit better when you compare the average catcher offence vs a CF offence.

 

Finding a catcher that can hit and be good defensively is extremely difficult.

 

19 catchers had a higher wRC+ than Moreno. Defense was just above average.

 

Moreno is a very middle of the pack catcher. Maybe he gets better, maybe he doesn't

[Masterbather]

I'm surprised he didn't call you a liberal/Trudeau supporter as that seems to be the go to argument for this type of poster.

 

Why do people have to bring politics into everything?

[max silver]

Why do people have to bring politics into everything?

 

As opposed to religion which is much better?

[max silver]

19 catchers had a higher wRC+ than Moreno. Defense was just above average.

 

Moreno is a very middle of the pack catcher. Maybe he gets better, maybe he doesn't

 

To be fair Moreno did end the season on a very positive note as he produced a 146 wRC+ over the last 3 months/168 plate appearances. This is a pretty small sample size though and it remains to be seen if he can keep this up over a full season of play when dealing with the rigors of playing behind the plate and with the league having the opportunity to make adjustments. For comparisons sake Davis Schneider produced a 176 wRC+ over 141 plate appearances and he started to struggle once the opposition was able to poke holes in his overall plate approach.

[burlingtonbandit]

19 catchers had a higher wRC+ than Moreno. Defense was just above average.

 

Moreno is a very middle of the pack catcher. Maybe he gets better, maybe he doesn't

 

Projected to be tied for 6th among Catchers for WAR next year by Steamer going into his age 24 season. I wouldn't call that middle of the pack lol.

 

Ironically Kirk tied for same WAR. I think both are good players but not really sure why people are hating on Moreno.

[The Cats Ass]

To be fair Moreno did end the season on a very positive note as he produced a 146 wRC+ over the last 3 months/168 plate appearances. This is a pretty small sample size though and it remains to be seen if he can keep this up over a full season of play when dealing with the rigors of playing behind the plate and with the league having the opportunity to make adjustments. For comparisons sake Davis Schneider produced a 176 wRC+ over 141 plate appearances and he started to struggle once the opposition was able to poke holes in his overall plate approach.

 

You can split off number various ways. Of those 168 PAs you referenced he didn't hit a HR in his last 76 of them while only putting up a 106wRC+. Which is more in line with his larger season sample size.

[Rusty_Savage]

Projected to be tied for 6th among Catchers for WAR next year by Steamer going into his age 24 season. I wouldn't call that middle of the pack lol.

 

Ironically Kirk tied for same WAR. I think both are good players but not really sure why people are hating on Moreno.

 

I don't think anyone is hating on him, I'm hating on posters saying stupid things like he absolutely tore it up in the playoffs, when he didn't or when Varsho is, basically, Kevin Pillar.

 

Varsho and Moreno have a lot of similarities, good to great defence, and limited on certain parts of their offense. Varsho is a high power low average guy while Moreno is a low power, higher average guy.

 

Varsho does strike out a lot and Moreno has trouble framing.

 

There's a lot to like about both guys, IMO

 

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[max silver]

You can split off number various ways. Of those 168 PAs you referenced he didn't hit a HR in his last 76 of them while only putting up a 106wRC+. Which is more in line with his larger season sample size.

 

And his playoff sample was very similar, in which he hit very well in his first 5 games of the post season and then cooled off dramatically after that.

[The Cats Ass]

Projected to be tied for 6th among Catchers for WAR next year by Steamer going into his age 24 season. I wouldn't call that middle of the pack lol.

 

Ironically Kirk tied for same WAR. I think both are good players but not really sure why people are hating on Moreno.

 

That's tied for 6th with 4 other players. Including Kirk. They have Moreno getting the most games out of all of them, so it's more like 9th for him. Did you happen to check out where Varsho landed for CFers while on there?

[Brownie19]

Jays24 and the hyperbole

 

In every single post, it's hilarious

 

I just put the Jays brothers on ignore. You're wasting your time responding to morons.

[Brownie19]

That's tied for 6th with 4 other players. Including Kirk. They have Moreno getting the most games out of all of them, so it's more like 9th for him. Did you happen to check out where Varsho landed for CFers while on there?

 

Obviously not, or he wouldn't have brought up projections...

[The Cats Ass]

I don't think anyone is hating on him, I'm hating on posters saying stupid things like he absolutely tore it up in the playoffs, when he didn't or when Varsho is, basically, Kevin Pillar.

 

Varsho and Moreno have a lot of similarities, good to great defence, and limited on certain parts of their offense. Varsho is a high power low average guy while Moreno is a low power, higher average guy.

 

Varsho does strike out a lot and Moreno has trouble framing.

 

There's a lot to like about both guys, IMO

 

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This hits the nail on the head. You have some guys proclaiming this was the worst trade in the history of trades, and will continue to bitch about it until the day they die. Both have performed equal last year, and both are projected for equal next year. It made total sense on our end. We moved one of our surplus catchers for a top tier CF with control.

[Jays24]

I just put the Jays brothers on ignore. You're wasting your time responding to morons.

 

LOL someone who challenges the front office is a moron. My bad, I will accept everything the front office does as great lol.

[DigitalRock]

LOL someone who challenges the front office is a moron. My bad, I will accept everything the front office does as great lol.

 

That is not why people think you are an idiot, come on your posts are trash

[burlingtonbandit]

I don't think anyone is hating on him, I'm hating on posters saying stupid things like he absolutely tore it up in the playoffs, when he didn't or when Varsho is, basically, Kevin Pillar.

 

Varsho and Moreno have a lot of similarities, good to great defence, and limited on certain parts of their offense. Varsho is a high power low average guy while Moreno is a low power, higher average guy.

 

Varsho does strike out a lot and Moreno has trouble framing.

 

There's a lot to like about both guys, IMO

 

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Yeah I think the hope would be that "framing" is a more teachable aspect and it would be easier to improve there as we have seen with catchers in the past. Varsho actually has a ton of potential with the bat given his plus bat speed. I think that is why he's really frustrating for fans to watch as he has all the tools to be an incredible player, but then you watch the games and he's whiffing on fastballs at his eyes.

 

I'm not a scout by any means but it looks like he could improve a lot with a mechanical change to his swing.

[max silver]

This hits the nail on the head. You have some guys proclaiming this was the worst trade in the history of trades, and will continue to bitch about it until the day they die. Both have performed equal last year, and both are projected for equal next year. It made total sense on our end. We moved one of our surplus catchers for a top tier CF with control.

 

Surely you must realize that the only season of Varsho's career that counts when determining his relative value is the single season he played as a Blue Jay. Despite the down season at the plate he produced roughly similar value to Moreno. At the same time we are to ignore the fact that Gurriel had the worst offensive season on his career since his rookie season and that Moreno had a worse season than Jansen and remarkably similar season to Kirk in terms of overall value to his team.