General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[DigitalRock]

Well, there goes Soto, as expected. Yankees will extend him and have a killer one-two punch for years to come. Would have been nice to have Moreno for such a deal, but we pissed him away for defensive proficiency. Judge/Soto vs Guerrero/Bo...LOL

 

Meanwhile we are dreaming in technicolour with a unicorn whose value we are being used to drive up for himself and his agent.

 

Fourth place here we come! The slow decline that started after 2021 will see its way into a rebuild in a year or two.

 

God you are an idiot

[Masterbather]

So you wanted to keep Moreno strictly to trade him for a 1 year rental?

Well if you have all this money for the unicorn then you have money to extend Soto. The point is to trade him as part of a package for a real superstar, Soto or somebody else, but not the trash bag that we did trade him for.

[Masterbather]

God you are an idiot

Go ahead and keep believing whatever religion tells you that this team's management is any good.

[max silver]

Well if you have all this money for the unicorn then you have money to extend Soto. The point is to trade him as part of a package for a real superstar, Soto or somebody else, but not the trash bag that we did trade him for.

 

Atkins went on record stating that it was very unlikely they would have been able to sign Ohtani and also trade for Soto in the same offseason.

 

The "trash bag" that was traded for has historically been a 4 win center fielder over his career. Sooner or later you would think that a certain segment of the fanbase would clue in that Moreno simply wasn't valued enough by other front offices to bring a superstar back in return.

[Carlos Danger]

Well, there goes Soto, as expected. Yankees will extend him and have a killer one-two punch for years to come. Would have been nice to have Moreno for such a deal, but we pissed him away for defensive proficiency. Judge/Soto vs Guerrero/Bo...LOL

 

Meanwhile we are dreaming in technicolour with a unicorn whose value we are being used to drive up for himself and his agent.

 

Fourth place here we come! The slow decline that started after 2021 will see its way into a rebuild in a year or two.

 

As many have said, the Padres were not looking for a catcher in a deal. The Yankees catcher was the last piece of the deal. The Padres have Campusano but are losing over 90 starts from 2023 in FA and can't afford to replace that via FA.

 

We would have had to clean out our pitching closet, which isn't exactly full.... I am positive the Yankees are going to the FA route to replenish the pitching they just lost..

[Eat My Shatkins]

Go ahead and keep believing whatever religion tells you that this team's management is any good.

 

The teams management isn't perfect, but 91, 92 and 89 win seasons, playoffs 3/4 seasons.....they certainly seem decently good with those results.

[Masterbather]

Atkins went on record stating that it was very unlikely they would have been able to sign Ohtani and also trade for Soto in the same offseason.

 

The "trash bag" that was traded for has historically been a 4 win center fielder over his career. Sooner or later you would think that a certain segment of the fanbase would clue in that Moreno simply wasn't valued enough by other front offices to bring a superstar back in return.

 

Well numbers do lie sometimes. Anyone who watched enough Diamondbacks games knew he was a trash bag with good defense. He's not an impact piece. Moreno certainly had value, enough that you could put him in a package to get an impact piece. Maybe not necessarily Soto, but somebody.

 

Truth be told I really didn't expect much this offseason, we don't have a lot of assets left to trade, there's not much out there offensively and I don't believe the Ohtani hype one bit. The one thing we can do is go even more in on pitching. That's where I would spend the money. Get a true number 2, get a good depth vet, get Hader. Offensively, I guess whatever IF bat you can trade for with a Manoah package. Maybe bring in a veteran bat like they did with Belt for a year.

[Rusty_Savage]

Well numbers do lie sometimes. Anyone who watched enough Diamondbacks games knew he was a trash bag with good defense. He's not an impact piece. Moreno certainly had value, enough that you could put him in a package to get an impact piece. Maybe not necessarily Soto, but somebody.

 

Truth be told I really didn't expect much this offseason, we don't have a lot of assets left to trade, there's not much out there offensively and I don't believe the Ohtani hype one bit. The one thing we can do is go even more in on pitching. That's where I would spend the money. Get a true number 2, get a good depth vet, get Hader. Offensively, I guess whatever IF bat you can trade for with a Manoah package. Maybe bring in a veteran bat like they did with Belt for a year.

How many full games did you watch of Varsho playing in Arizona?

 

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[max silver]

Well numbers do lie sometimes. Anyone who watched enough Diamondbacks games knew he was a trash bag with good defense. He's not an impact piece. Moreno certainly had value, enough that you could put him in a package to get an impact piece. Maybe not necessarily Soto, but somebody.

 

Truth be told I really didn't expect much this offseason, we don't have a lot of assets left to trade, there's not much out there offensively and I don't believe the Ohtani hype one bit. The one thing we can do is go even more in on pitching. That's where I would spend the money. Get a true number 2, get a good depth vet, get Hader. Offensively, I guess whatever IF bat you can trade for with a Manoah package. Maybe bring in a veteran bat like they did with Belt for a year.

 

How do numbers lie? All of the available numbers point to Varsho being an elite outfield defender who has typically provided around league average offense. He would have been the Blue Jays most valuable player in 2022 if he were employed with the team at that point, which is kind of a big deal considering the team had players like Vladimir Guerrero Jr., Bo Bichette and Matt Chapman.

[Masterbather]

The teams management isn't perfect, but 91, 92 and 89 win seasons, playoffs 3/4 seasons.....they certainly seem decently good with those results.

 

Given the talent they had, the money they have, I think they should have done better. I'm not suggesting they're the worst, but they've been here for a while and I would just like to see us go in a different direction.

 

At this point, if you honestly assess where we are and where we're going we're not in a great place. The two best players on the team both have significant long-term risk. One has very little discipline at the plate, the other one is completely lost. The rotation is made of free agent signings mostly in their 30's. They aren't old but they're not young. If there is a window here it's very short and maybe disappearing already. Orioles and Rays aren't going away for a while and the Yankees will rise again.

 

I think it's time to consider a rebuild and you can't do that with the same management team.

 

Obviously, ownership has decided to keep trying so I guess we should just spend and hope to find one magical year in the next couple.

[Jays24]

Atkins went on record stating that it was very unlikely they would have been able to sign Ohtani and also trade for Soto in the same offseason.

 

The "trash bag" that was traded for has historically been a 4 win center fielder over his career. Sooner or later you would think that a certain segment of the fanbase would clue in that Moreno simply wasn't valued enough by other front offices to bring a superstar back in return.

 

Please don't sit here to tell us Varsho is good when we could have gotten the same value from KK or Grisham. Many wanted the scrub out of the lineup by the end of the season. Only if there was such a thing as Designated Fielder lol.

[Masterbather]

How many full games did you watch of Varsho playing in Arizona?

 

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I actually watched a good amount of Arizona games in 2022, not to watch them but mostly because I was watching for other teams, a lot of Dodgers and Padres, plus other various teams. I probably ended up watching between 50 and 60 Diamondbacks games just in 2022. Maybe 25 or 30 the year before. I'm a bit of a night owl so I catch a lot of West coast games. Dude can play defense but he's not special. I don't consider him impact even in his better seasons.

[Jays24]

I actually watched a good amount of Arizona games in 2022, not to watch them but mostly because I was watching for other teams, a lot of Dodgers and Padres, plus other various teams. I probably ended up watching between 50 and 60 Diamondbacks games just in 2022. Maybe 25 or 30 the year before. I'm a bit of a night owl so I catch a lot of West coast games. Dude can play defense but he's not special. I don't consider him impact even in his better seasons.

 

His entire value comes from his defense. Dude was pathetic at the plate last year and his history shows you that he is that guy. It was a pathetic trade and only homers will say otherwise... Sadly there are a bunch of homers who try to bully others on this board lol.

[Eat My Shatkins]

His entire value comes from his defense. Dude was pathetic at the plate last year and his history shows you that he is that guy. It was a pathetic trade and only homers will say otherwise... Sadly there are a bunch of homers who try to bully others on this board lol.

 

History shows that Varsho has been a league average bat. Why do you have to make things up all the time?

[max silver]

Please don't sit here to tell us Varsho is good when we could have gotten the same value from KK or Grisham. Many wanted the scrub out of the lineup by the end of the season. Only if there was such a thing as Designated Fielder lol.

 

Varsho in center field is almost certainly a far more valuable player than either Grisham or Kiermaier. Go back the last 3 seasons of play since Varsho converted to the outfield and compare his numbers as a center fielder to Grisham and Kiermaier.

 

In 1574 plate appearances Grisham provided 6.3 FWAR, or 2.2 WAR/550 plate appearances.

 

In 1011 plate appearances Kiermaier provided 5.9 FWAR, or 3.22 WAR/550 plate appearances.

 

In 480 plate appearances Varsho provided 3.8 FWAR, or 4.75 WAR/550 plate appearances.

 

You are simply placing far too much emphasis on a single down season at the plate where Varsho was playing in a much less valuable defensive position. There's no guarantee his best in baseball defensive metrics will fully translate over a full season of play in center field as he's yet to spend a full season out there, but if they do he is going to be a really valuable player even if he struggles with the bat a bit.

[Carlos Danger]

I actually watched a good amount of Arizona games in 2022, not to watch them but mostly because I was watching for other teams, a lot of Dodgers and Padres, plus other various teams. I probably ended up watching between 50 and 60 Diamondbacks games just in 2022. Maybe 25 or 30 the year before. I'm a bit of a night owl so I catch a lot of West coast games. Dude can play defense but he's not special. I don't consider him impact even in his better seasons.

 

Last year was Varsho’s 2nd full season in MLB. He had one season prior to the Jays. He came up his first year, sucked as many rookies do, then did much better when he came up the second time after being sent down. He was decent the year before we got him and had power for a CF which is what he was.

 

Hopefully will improve this year with the bat. The base running and D are grade A.

[Rusty_Savage]

I actually watched a good amount of Arizona games in 2022, not to watch them but mostly because I was watching for other teams, a lot of Dodgers and Padres, plus other various teams. I probably ended up watching between 50 and 60 Diamondbacks games just in 2022. Maybe 25 or 30 the year before. I'm a bit of a night owl so I catch a lot of West coast games. Dude can play defense but he's not special. I don't consider him impact even in his better seasons.

Fair enough but I wouldn't call a guy with elite defence who hit 27 homers a trash bag but I'm not a reactionary prick either

 

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[Jays24]

History shows that Varsho has been a league average bat. Why do you have to make things up all the time?

 

More recent history has shown he was practically unplayable at the plate because he couldn't hit to save his life. And let's not pretend like he has a big track history.

 

He has 1.5 seasons of being average at the plate vs 1 season of being completely useless. So currently he is in between being useless and average. I'm so pumped lol.

[max silver]

History shows that Varsho has been a league average bat. Why do you have to make things up all the time?

 

Because he's a reactionary doofus that constantly shoots from the hip and offers zero insight to back up his opinions.

[max silver]

More recent history has shown he was practically unplayable at the plate because he couldn't hit to save his life. And let's not pretend like he has a big track history.

 

He has 1.5 seasons of being average at the plate vs 1 season of being completely useless. So currently he is in between being useless and average. I'm so pumped lol.

 

His down season at the plate was entirely a direct result of struggles against right handed pitching at home only. His career splits show him to be slightly above average against right handed pitchers for his career, so this is most likely something that's going to be a weird single year anomaly.

[Jays24]

His down season at the plate was entirely a direct result of struggles against right handed pitching at home only. His career splits show him to be slightly above average against right handed pitchers for his career, so this is most likely something that's going to be a weird single year anomaly.

 

Hilarious that you can spin the conversation this way when it's just as likely he will continue to suck at the plate. There is not enough track record to expect any bounce back with conviction. Currently we can expect a repeat of last year or at best he can be league average.

 

Again, give me KK all day even at his age rather than having to give up Gurriel/Moreno. We could have used them for a more impactful player elsewhere.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Jays24

[Masterbather]

Fair enough but I wouldn't call a guy with elite defence who hit 27 homers a trash bag but I'm not a reactionary prick either

 

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Even if you like Varsho, whatever, he's not useless, but I don't believe in trading a highly rated prospect for an okay player, I think you save those guys to feature in a package for a blockbuster piece. I don't like the asset management.

[max silver]

Hilarious that you can spin the conversation this way when it's just as likely he will continue to suck at the plate. There is not enough track record to expect any bounce back with conviction. Currently we can expect a repeat of last year or at best he can be league average. Wow lol.

 

You fail to realize how valuable a truly elite center field defender with a league average bat is. If he takes a bit of a step forward with the bat he could fire off 5+ win seasons akin to what Devon White provided during his career.

[Jays24]

You seem to fail to realize how valuable a truly elite center field defender with a league average bat is.

 

Which is why I love KK and seems like the Yankees got one to go ALONG with Soto.

 

We all understand the value of one, we just don't think even a prime Kevin Pillar would have gotten us that type of return. How on earth anyone can try to justify the Varsho trade last year is beyond ridiculous lol.

[max silver]

Which is why I love KK and seems like the Yankees got one to go ALONG with Soto.

 

We all understand the value of one, we just don't think even a prime Kevin Pillar would have gotten us that type of return. How on earth anyone can try to justify the Varsho trade last year is beyond ridiculous lol.

 

Prime Kevin Pillar's best season was a full win lower than Varsho's best season up to this point. Pillar's second best season of his entire career was worse than Varsho's worst season to date where Varsho played primarily in left field.

 

It's easy to justify the Varsho trade. All 3 of the Jays catchers had serious question marks that would limit their potential returns and the team chose the best offer they received. It's not rocket science. Moreno spent several seasons with a Kevin Pillar type of bat (lots of hit but very few walks and extra base hits) but behind the plate, Kirk is shaped like the baseball version of Danny Devito and Jansen simply can't stay healthy. Instead of fixating on the prospect ranking value of Moreno which has zero worth in determining his actual trade value, take an objective look at what he could have been reasonably expected to provide offensively in MLB when faced with superior pitching and defenses.

[Rusty_Savage]

Even if you like Varsho, whatever, he's not useless, but I don't believe in trading a highly rated prospect for an okay player, I think you save those guys to feature in a package for a blockbuster piece. I don't like the asset management.

Sure but do you think that maybe teams don't value Moreno as high as we did? I get he had a cup of coffee as the number one prospect and that carries some weight but our need was young controllable outfielders on teams who needed a catcher. Teams also knew we were going to have to unload a catcher so that hamstring is as well. I think I'll wait four or five years before making any grand declarations on how we fared on the trade but yeah, it was slightly underwhelming.

 

All that being said, I would've preferred to move Jansen out of the three.

 

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[Rusty_Savage]

Which is why I love KK and seems like the Yankees got one to go ALONG with Soto.

 

We all understand the value of one, we just don't think even a prime Kevin Pillar would have gotten us that type of return. How on earth anyone can try to justify the Varsho trade last year is beyond ridiculous lol.

Varsho is better then Pillar....like a lot better

 

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[DigitalRock]

Go ahead and keep believing whatever religion tells you that this team's management is any good.

 

WTF are you even talking about? Where have I ever mentioned management at all lol, you are an idiot. Poor strawman argument from a mental midget.

[max silver]

WTF are you even talking about? Where have I ever mentioned management at all lol, you are an idiot. Poor strawman argument from a mental midget.

 

I'm surprised he didn't call you a liberal/Trudeau supporter as that seems to be the go to argument for this type of poster.

[Eat My Shatkins]

More recent history has shown he was practically unplayable at the plate because he couldn't hit to save his life. And let's not pretend like he has a big track history.

 

He has 1.5 seasons of being average at the plate vs 1 season of being completely useless. So currently he is in between being useless and average. I'm so pumped lol.

 

He has a career 96 wRC+

 

Basically a league average bat