General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[wilko]

He had thrown 50 pitches man come on

 

It was 47!

[L54]

Bit of a talent gap there though

 

Today? That gap is not as big anymore

[L54]

It was 47!

 

I can only assume the biometric data that the nerds had in real time told them that he was beginning to labour and it was time to bring in Kikuchi for his first appearance out of the pen all year

[Brownie19]

He had thrown 50 pitches man come on

 

Oh thanks - I didn't notice that. All I'm doing is countering people who say "use your eyes, he was lights out, that's the best he's ever thrown, electric". Perhaps there was a reason for the uptick in velocity and we don't know how long that would have lasted. Could it have lasted 60 pitches? Maybe, 80 pitches? Maybe. We don't know. The coaching staff wasn't going to let him pitch long enough to find out when the 'stuff' dropped off. I can understand that logic.

 

We scored 1 run in 2 games. The offensive players lost us the series. They weren't good enough and hadn't been good enough all year. End of story.

[Brownie19]

Would Atkins and Schneider have taken the ball from Scherzer? No chance

 

It's like you forget that last year the Mets rode Scherzer into the 5th inning v. the Padres in Game 3 of the wild card series and he got lit the f*** up, surrendering 4 runs in the 5th and 7 runs overall - ending the Mets season.

[L54]

It's like you forget that last year the Mets rode Scherzer into the 5th inning v. the Padres in Game 3 of the wild card series and he got lit the f*** up, surrendering 4 runs in the 5th and 7 runs overall - ending the Mets season.

 

That was Game 1

[L54]

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mets-max-scherzer-allows-four-home-runs-vs-padres-in-dreadful-playoff-outing-one-of-the-lowest-of-lows/amp/

[L54]

The only team to ever be eliminated in a three game series on the first night

[BigCecil]

If you are Jose Berrios right now...

 

... aren't you kind of tempted to say "trade me to an organization that will never do that to me"?

 

To be fair this org traded two top prospects for him and gave him a $131,000,000 deal.

 

He sucked in 2022 posting 1 WAR and the org stuck by him never ragging him publicly and throwing him out there every 5th day. He gave them 3 WAR back this year.

 

I think he is a really good dude and while upset, I'd like to think he isn't going to forget the orgs treatment of him when he was struggling in '22.

[Terminator]

The only team to ever be eliminated in a three game series on the first night

 

Lol he blows up your point so you resort to getting nitpicky because he mistakenly thought it was the elimination game but not Game 1

[Laika]

Today? That gap is not as big anymore

 

Okay well 2023 Max Scherzer doesn't even start a wild card game for Toronto so

[L54]

Lol he blows up your point so you resort to getting nitpicky because he mistakenly thought it was the elimination game but not Game 1

 

Please explain how my point was blown up

[Terminator]

Please explain how my point was blown up

 

Can't you just read it yourself?

 

-You bring up Max Scherzer like it's somehow relevant to pulling Berrios.

-Brownie points out that Scherzer should in fact have been pulled from his last playoff game bc he got destroyed.

-You then pivot and make 3 posts in a row (the last of which was pretty snarky) pointing out how Brownie thought it was the elimination game when it was actually Game 1. That's the definition of a red herring argument.

 

It's not a big deal I just though it was kind of funny.

[Brownie19]

The only team to ever be eliminated in a three game series on the first night

 

Whoops - apparently the box scores were listed newest to oldest. My mistake. But I think the point still stands - there is very recent history of a Manager sticking with Scherzer too long in a playoff spot and it costing them the game.

[L54]

Can't you just read it yourself?

 

-You bring up Max Scherzer like it's somehow relevant to pulling Berrios.

-Brownie points out that Scherzer should in fact have been pulled from his last playoff game bc he got destroyed.

-You then pivot and make 3 posts in a row (the last of which was pretty snarky) pointing out how Brownie thought it was the elimination game when it was actually Game 1. That's the definition of a red herring argument.

 

It's not a big deal I just thought it was kind of funny.

 

My point was that they wouldn’t have the balls to do that to Scherzer

 

Uh ya hey Max, Ross here. Look John and I were crunching the #’s and we think it would be most effective if you only went 47 pitches tonight and then we’re going to bring David Peterson in. You know, because of the platoon advantage

[L54]

Whoops - apparently the box scores were listed newest to oldest. My mistake. But I think the point still stands - there is very recent history of a Manager sticking with Scherzer too long in a playoff spot and it costing them the game.

 

So should every starter be limited or just Scherzer and Berrios?

[wilko]

My point was that they wouldn’t have the balls to do that to Scherzer

 

Uh ya hey Max, Ross here. Look John and I were crunching the #’s and we think it would be most effective if you only went 47 pitches tonight and then we’re going to bring David Peterson in. You know, because of the platoon advantage

 

That's comparing apples to oranges. Mad Max is a throwback psychotic person and Berrios is a sweet, loving kind gentle soul. The point is, if they are dealing... who cares who's up there. Read the game and put the data sheet down for a sec.

[Brownie19]

So should every starter be limited or just Scherzer and Berrios?

 

I'm just saying I understand the strategy to pull your starter a bit too soon, rather than too late in a playoff game - especially an elimination game. I don't love that baseball has turned to this - I grew up watching starters go deep into the playoffs and it's more enjoyable to watch, but I understand why baseball has changed (the bullpen arms are just so good now).

 

Personally, in your odd theoretical scenario, I'd be more upset if the FO didn't have the balls implement the same plan with Scherzer that they did with Berrios - especially when Scherzer is a declining 38 year old pitcher who just got lit up in the playoffs last year when the team tried to 'ride him' a bit too long.

[Olerud363]

Whoops - apparently the box scores were listed newest to oldest. My mistake. But I think the point still stands - there is very recent history of a Manager sticking with Scherzer too long in a playoff spot and it costing them the game.

 

Another example is Robbie Ray in 2021 cruising after 5, leading 2-1, ready to win the Cy Young, about to bring Joy to a city, a fanbase, and then Aaron Judge and the Yankees absolutely hammer him with 3 bombs and 4 runs so bad, so sad. Playoff chances swing by like 30 or 40% that inning.

[glory]

Would Atkins and Schneider have taken the ball from Scherzer? No chance

 

Forget Scherzer, they wouldn’t have taken the ball from Chris Bassitt. I’d be pretty annoyed if I was Berrios.

[Brownie19]

Forget Scherzer, they wouldn’t have taken the ball from Chris Bassitt. I’d be pretty annoyed if I was Berrios.

 

I think there's a very good chance Berrios knew the strategy going into the game.

[Brownie19]

Another example is Robbie Ray in 2021 cruising after 5, leading 2-1, ready to win the Cy Young, about to bring Joy to a city, a fanbase, and then Aaron Judge and the Yankees absolutely hammer him with 3 bombs and 4 runs so bad, so sad. Playoff chances swing by like 30 or 40% that inning.

 

Oh there's a good one. Funny how quickly fans forget this type of stuff.

[Laika]

Another example is Robbie Ray in 2021 cruising after 5, leading 2-1, ready to win the Cy Young, about to bring Joy to a city, a fanbase, and then Aaron Judge and the Yankees absolutely hammer him with 3 bombs and 4 runs so bad, so sad. Playoff chances swing by like 30 or 40% that inning.

 

fun game!

 

Michael King got the win

Nate Pearson was electric in 2 relief innings

Julian Merryweather gave up a HR

Chad Green got a Hold

[Krylian]

Would Atkins and Schneider have taken the ball from Scherzer? No chance

 

Scherzer would've taken one of Schneider's balls.

[Spanky99]

I think there's a very good chance Berrios knew the strategy going into the game.

 

JS said he knew of the plan in his presser.

[Omar]

I think there's a very good chance Berrios knew the strategy going into the game.

 

[Daniel Labude]

I hope the person who does our video review also goes into retirement. Can we get people with good eye sight?

 

I think there's a very good chance Berrios knew the strategy going into the game.

 

Schneider said everyone knew the plan. Assuming that meant all the pitchers, clearly the hitters had no clue and were shocked

[Ehjays]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/blue-jays-faq-uncomfortable-decisions-need-to-be-made-after-early-playoff-exit/

 

Blue Jays FAQ: Uncomfortable decisions need to be made after early playoff exit

Shi Davidi

 

 

 

MINNEAPOLIS — During his media availability ahead of Game 2 Wednesday afternoon, John Schneider was mid-answer when the cellphones of everyone in the room started to chime with a test of the National Wireless Emergency Alert system.

 

At 1:18 p.m. CT, 2½ hours before first pitch, it provided a moment of levity, and again moments later when a questioner was interrupted when the alarms were sounded a second time. That it became a metaphor hours later, after the Toronto Blue Jays manager executed an organizational plan by pulling Jose Berrios, in spite of a performance that clearly merited more rope, in the fourth inning of what ended as a season-ending 2-0 loss to the Minnesota Twins, seems apt.

 

 

The pitching change may be the most polarizing in-game decision ever made in franchise history and the fall-out from it, both internally and within the toxic-fire-discourse externally, certainly qualifies as a ring-the-alarm Blue Jays emergency.

 

 

 

To unpack it all, it’s FAQ time, based on the questions I’ve received from within and outside the industry in the hours since it all went down.

 

Q: Dude, WTF?

 

A: I totally hear you. I could see the logic behind yanking a dealing Matt Shoemaker for Robbie Ray in Game 1 of the 2020 wild-card series against the Tampa Bay Rays. Pulling Kevin Gausman in Game 2 of the wild-card round a year ago against the Seattle Mariners can be debated but I think it was the right call after Carlos Santana had been on the right-hander in his previous at-bats. Bigger picture, I didn’t even hate Kevin Cash pulling Blake Snell in Game 6 of the 2020 World Series — they were staying true to who they were and Mookie Betts is a hell of a problem.

 

Removing Berrios, though, even if Yusei Kikuchi had escaped the fourth unscathed, is indefensible because of how it schisms the organization. The numbers on Berrios versus lefties are what they are, and I get the notion of forcing the Twins to flip some of their lefties for a better bullpen path later in the game. But Berrios was as nails as he’s been with the Blue Jays in that outing. Eight whiffs on 25 swings. No hard contact. No long at-bats where the Twins looked to be timing him up. He wasn’t getting through innings, he was dominating them.

 

The change was forcing a plan on a game blind to the flow of play, while in the process telling one of your star pitchers that you don’t trust him versus Max Kepler and Alex Kirilloff, very good but not great hitters, a second time through. It’s totally dissonant to brag about the rotation’s strength only to do that.

 

Q: So, fire Schneider ASAP, right?

 

A: Wrong. Schneider is wearing this and while you can argue that maybe he should have fought off organizational thinking and abandoned that game plan, well that just isn’t how things work when it’s your ass in the jackpot, as Tom Hallion might say. I refuse to believe that Schneider or pitching coach Pete Walker were down with this. Schneider didn’t speak with his usual conviction in explaining the decision-making post-game Wednesday and I’m not sure all of it can be attributed to the raw emotions of a season-ending loss.

 

The problem here is that Schneider (and the rest of the coaching staff) has to answer to the players and he gets caught between the organizational decision-making and his clubhouse, impacting his credibility within the group. In part, that’s what I think happened with Charlie Montoyo, players feeling disconnected from him and him seemingly withdrawing because he couldn’t square what he was executing nightly with what he actually wanted to do.

 

As a result, the club factionalizes — front office, coaching staff, players — and while everyone is grinding their heinies off to win, there’s too much inefficiency. In that way, firing Schneider without addressing the same core issues that existed before him accomplishes nothing but changing the façade. He’s an easy answer for anyone seeking one.

 

Q. Well, can we blame analytics then?

 

A: No and casting analytics as a one-stop boogieman every time things go wrong is flat-out ignorant. You want to dump analytics? Go ahead, hope you enjoy being the Kansas City Royals. The Blue Jays have a strong analytics department that provides players and coaches with a competitive advantage, and is a big part of the club’s success in recent years.

 

The challenge, and this is industry-wide, not just Blue-Jays-centric, is how to weigh out the different streams of information and factor it into decision-making. Understanding that lefties hit 16 of the 25 homers Berrios gave up in 2023, that his slurve and backdoor sinkers sometimes break right into their bat path, is helpful and can aid in good decision-making. But it’s problematic when a plan designed to, for example, counteract a 60 per cent probable outcome is held rigidly in the face of a 40-per-cent-probable performance. Is the coaching staff empowered to deviate, to trust what the game flow is telling them, without having to answer for it afterwards?

 

A manager should be put it in place to apply information against what he sees, not just follow a manual. Not every decision can be objective and allowing for some subjective, for what some might describe as feel, is the secret sauce. This is my interpretation here, but when Bo Bichette said that with the way Berrios was pitching “he deserves some trust in the biggest moments” and more broadly, that “from the top to the bottom of this organization, we need to reflect to see how we can be better,” I think that’s partly what he's getting at.

 

Q. What does the front office do with all of this?

 

A. That’s the crux of this off-season and it isn’t the easy-answer, pound-of-flesh fireable stuff. Of all the conversations I had in the clubhouse Wednesday, the comments that stuck out most to me were the ones from Bichette above, Cavan Biggio saying the pitching change “was confusing just because we hadn’t done that at all this year,” and perhaps most damningly of all, Vladimir Guerrero Jr. saying, “I think we’ve got to get better decisions on everything.” Players don’t say things like that if they’re confident about the organizational operation, if they have full trust in how games are being run.

 

That speaks louder than any of the more pop-out quotes that emerged, because that’s a far larger problem than a bad result in one key game. And while I can envision backs getting up about this, this decision was really a microcosm of the structural problems the Blue Jays endured all season, as I wrote Wednesday night. If process is the way to judge results, then this season was a failure not because the Blue Jays got swept in the wild-card round, but because this group underperformed its potential.

 

The deep dive necessary is into what internal factors allowed that to happen. That’s essential because Guerrero, Bichette, Jordan Romano and Danny Jansen are nearing free agency while Gausman, Berrios, Kevin Gausman and George Springer are each one year closer to decline and one of the best pitching staffs in franchise history wasn’t maximized. This is just as bad as 2021, when trying to lock down games with Rafael Dolis, Tyler Chatwood, Anthony Castro, Joel Payamps and Travis Bergen for two months cost them a playoff berth. Ascribing 2023 to bad luck and randomness is perilous.

 

 

Q. Umm, that doesn’t make me feel better.

 

A. It’s not meant to. That’s simply where the Blue Jays are right now. They have a smart front office. There is a lot of good on the major-league roster. But the vast majority of organizational talent is centralized in the big leagues, so they have to capitalize. There’s no mass wave in the farm system coming. Hence, there is a lot to improve on.

 

And they didn’t just lose Wednesday, they also shook faith in how they run a game during their most important game of the year. If the front office says, “we were a couple of feet away from a different outcome,” which is true, that will be ducking the issues. Because if Kikuchi had escaped the fourth, and if Chapman’s drive down the line in the sixth touched fair, everything wouldn’t suddenly be OK.

 

So, this is where the hard work starts. This is where everybody needs to get comfortable being uncomfortable.

[Omar]

Fair assessment by David but as usual he lets Atkins/Shapiro off the hook with nary a mention. #RogersShills

[Terminator]

Imagine being a fan of a professional sports team and they look like World Series favorites on paper but then they get swept up by the obesity epidemic of all things and get knocked out in the first round.

 

Welcome to sports hell everyone.