General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[jaysblue]

Even you shouldn't be so dumb that you wouldn't realize that actively cheering for your team to lose during the most important stretch of the season isn't going to be received with open arms. This team is going to see a lot of turnover this offseason due to the large amount of expiring contracts anyway so there's no need to cheer for them to lose in order to satisfy your own sense of self loathing.

 

You freak out way too much man and get all pissy when someone criticizes this team. I don't agree 100% with everything Jonn said. All he was saying is that the Jays should look at trading some valuable assets to replenish their system if they fail at making the Postseason. I don't think the Jays should trade off guys like Gausman or Bo after this season if they fail to make one of the WCs. I still think they have a window in 2024 and 2025 to make some noise with this group. This offseason will be very important.

 

Reality is if the Jays fail to make the Postseason this year, you have to start asking serious questions about some core players and the front office. If the Jays underachieve again in 2024, and fail to sign Bo to an extension, you have to look at trading some key veteran pieces before they become FAs and lose them for nothing. Common sense. If this team doesn't succeed in 2024, what makes you think 2025 will be any different with this same core? If the Jays miss the Postseason in 2023 and start off poorly in 2024, Atkins is likely gone anyways.

[max silver]

You understand the term “low key” right. I don’t actually want them to lose or cheer against them. Think of it more of putting the group out of its misery and ensuring changes. I highly question the roster decisions and its hard to just blindly support it. Scheneider despite his success struggling to get into the lineup. People were calling me an idiot just a month ago for going on rants on why he should be even promoted in the first place. But more than that it’s continued decision to roster Espinal when theirs young options absolutely thriving in the Minors. Most of whom are already on the 40-man. Its a lot of the little things that have made this Season very not enjoyable. Sorry if that’s negative? Like I’m just calling it as I see it. This organization make’s some really f***ing dumb decisions that shoots them in the foot. 2021 to this day is very heart breaking for me and I’m sure many others. I’m not asking for perfection. Just do the little f***ing things to give yourself the best chance to be successful. I don’t feel they do that often enough.

 

Why would you even state that you "low key" hope they lose if you didn't actually want them to lose? Low key wanting them to lose still means you want them to lose after all. Change is coming no matter what, and given how this offense has struggled to click all season long there is no chance that there won't be some major changes happening in the off season, whether it's mostly roster changes, coaching philosophy and/or coaching staff chances, front office changes etc.

 

The current offensive environment in AAA needs to be factored into the success of the AAA team this season as it makes it pretty tough to know which players down there are going to be able to enjoy immediate MLB success vs those who are being propped up by an environment that makes even mediocre hitters look like stars. The automatic strike zone being utilized in AAA this season sounds like it's about the size of a postage stamp so the hitters have gained a huge advantage from this. For instance Orelvis Martinez has produced an .872 OPS in AAA so far but this only translates to a 109 WRC+ after all.

[Jonn]

You freak out way too much man and get all pissy when someone criticizes this team. I don't agree 100% with everything Jonn said. All he was saying is that the Jays should look at trading some valuable assets to replenish their system if they fail at making the Postseason. I don't think the Jays should trade off guys like Gausman or Bo after this season if they fail to make one of the WCs. I still think they have a window in 2024 and 2025 to make some noise with this group. This offseason will be very important.

 

Reality is if the Jays fail to make the Postseason this year, you have to start asking serious questions about some core players and the front office. If the Jays underachieve again in 2024, and fail to sign Bo to an extension, you have to look at trading some key veteran pieces before they become FAs and lose them for nothing. Common sense. If this team doesn't succeed in 2024, what makes you think 2025 will be any different with this same core? If the Jays miss the Postseason in 2023 and start off poorly in 2024, Atkins is likely gone anyways.

 

I honestly don’t expect a lot of people to agree. I know it’s unpopular opinion but at some point these decisions have to be made. This group is going to get expensive. You have to identify if its the group that can do the job for the money they will be paid. We don’t want to be stuck in the middle with an expensive roster.

 

You also have to factor in players egos where control isn’t everything anymore. Players dictate more about where they go more than ever. Gausman could turn around this off-season and ask for a trade and all of a sudden everything changes. He’s already blown up in the media once. You don’t think if September goes well that could potentially ger worse. This team had expectations of winning the division and now they couldn’t even hold onto Wild Card 3.

 

You have to look at things from all angles. The vibes in that clubhouse aren’t great. Were 5 months into we’ll just wait until they start hitting.

[MikeM3]

Within like 19 days one offseason they:

 

- traded Randy Arozarena for Matthew Liberatore

- traded Adolis Garcia for cash considerations

 

Imagine trading two aces for Ozuna with a bum shoulder

[Jonn]

Why would you even state that you "low key" hope they lose if you didn't actually want them to lose? Low key wanting them to lose still means you want them to lose after all. Change is coming no matter what, and given how this offense has struggled to click all season long there is no chance that there won't be some major changes happening in the off season, whether it's mostly roster changes, coaching philosophy and/or coaching staff chances, front office changes etc.

 

The current offensive environment in AAA needs to be factored into the success of the AAA team this season as it makes it pretty tough to know which players down there are going to be able to enjoy immediate MLB success vs those who are being propped up by an environment that makes even mediocre hitters look like stars. For instance Orelvis Martinez has produced an .872 OPS in AAA so far but this only translates to a 109 WRC+ after all.

 

I don’t want the Jays to lose. I wouldn’t even be posting here if I didn’t care about their success. I question if this team can be successful. I can question that and still be a fan. I would love to eat my words. I would love to be wrong. I’m not going to pretend I like how things are going. I’m just not going to do that.

 

I’m not saying Martinez or Barger or anyone else is going to hit the ground running or be better even. But we know what certain players on this roster are at this point. Specifically Espinal and the amount of the PA’s and defensive innings he’s getting is becoming a problem. I have often defended Biggio here but I question his usage as well. It’s September Friday. We kinda can’t keep waiting. Davis has sparked the team lets see who else can.

[Stangstag]

I honestly don’t expect a lot of people to agree. I know it’s unpopular opinion but at some point these decisions have to be made. This group is going to get expensive. You have to identify if its the group that can do the job for the money they will be paid. We don’t want to be stuck in the middle with an expensive roster.

 

You also have to factor in players egos where control isn’t everything anymore. Players dictate more about where they go more than ever. Gausman could turn around this off-season and ask for a trade and all of a sudden everything changes. He’s already blown up in the media once. You don’t think if September goes well that could potentially ger worse. This team had expectations of winning the division and now they couldn’t even hold onto Wild Card 3.

 

You have to look at things from all angles. The vibes in that clubhouse aren’t great. Were 5 months into we’ll just wait until they start hitting.

 

Then you tell him too f***ing bad, he’s under contract. Idk where you’re getting this outlandish idea that he wants out all of a sudden, he didn’t “blow up” on the team, he said we need to play better and we’re running out of time which is completely fair.

 

You’re making a mountain out of a mole hill. This comment is similar to Donaldson’s “this isn’t the try league” thing

[Laika]

Imagine trading two aces for Ozuna with a bum shoulder

 

Oh wow, I forgot about that. HORRENDOUS.

[Terminator]

Even Pete Walker a couple bottles deep could tell him, hey maybe throw the sinker to lefties not righties

 

Mike you've been pouring it on with the Pete Walker hate lately but the dude has been getting results for a while, has he not?

[jaysblue]

The lag on St Louis becoming a bad organization was frustratingly long.

 

I dunno what kept them hanging onto being good for the last 5 years.

 

I guess just a weak division and probably a few really good "old school" baseball people.

 

Weren't you and BTS both St. Louis Cardinals fanboys?

[jaysblue]

Then you tell him too f***ing bad, he’s under contract. Idk where you’re getting this outlandish idea that he wants out all of a sudden, he didn’t “blow up” on the team, he said we need to play better and we’re running out of time which is completely fair.

 

You’re making a mountain out of a mole hill. This comment is similar to Donaldson’s “this isn’t the try league” thing

 

Lmao easier said than done. Some players who don't want to be on a certain team and ask for a trade might not try their hardest after and be disgruntled etc. It's human nature. We see that across all sports, especially in the NBA. You wouldn't want those players in the clubhouse or on your roster for a long time.

 

I don't think Gausman though will demand a trade this off-season and Jonn is probably overreacting about what he said in the media the other day. I do think however if the Jays underachieve again in 2024, you have to look at moving some key pieces including Gausman. But we're not at that point yet.

[Brownie19]

When was the last time a ML star player asked for a trade and was traded? I'm drawing a blank. Don't think it happens often - this isn't the NBA.

 

Also, no FO in baseball would have predicted that Springer, Vlad, Kirk, Chapman, Varsho and Jansen (to a lesser extent) would underperform this year offensively. I find it difficult to blame this FO. If 3 of those 6 perform to expectations, we're firmly in the playoffs right now. The players deserve the blame.

[Spanky99]

When was the last time a ML star player asked for a trade and was traded? I'm drawing a blank. Don't think it happens often - this isn't the NBA.

 

Also, no FO in baseball would have predicted that Springer, Vlad, Kirk, Chapman, Varsho and Jansen (to a lesser extent) would underperform this year offensively. I find it difficult to blame this FO. If 3 of those 6 perform to expectations, we're firmly in the playoffs right now. The players deserve the blame.

 

This is a stupid topic, none of what Jonn gets a chubb for is ever going to happen, ever.

[MikeM3]

Mike you've been pouring it on with the Pete Walker hate lately but the dude has been getting results for a while, has he not?

 

We do have a really expensive staff. Our rotation is worth about 100M and all our bullpen is either signed or traded for. These guys are all vetrin pitchers.

 

If his job is to strictly deal with whoever shows up in the MLB clubhouse and literally nothing else then he's fine I guess.

 

If his job is any sort of development then he's done nothing. Manoah is in Siberia right now.

 

I just remember Aaron Sanchez throwing a sinker and a curveball and wondering how we couldn't figure out that those 2 pitches don't work together.

 

I'm also biased against an old guy from an old regime. There's no way he keeps up with the Mariners especially when he drinks.

 

But then again, what material does he have to work with because the guys that get to the show are dudes with fastball profiles from 2004.

 

I look at Woo from the Mariners. He has legit stuff but nothing at all vs LHBs. A couple months in the show and now he has 2 different sliders. One optimized for LHB. But then again he actually has talent.

[Laika]

Weren't you and BTS both St. Louis Cardinals fanboys?

 

Yes ironically

[Terminator]

I think with the Cardinals they have historically been probably the second best team in history and that success carried into this century. Easy to assume that the success would continue.

[jaysblue]

When was the last time a ML star player asked for a trade and was traded? I'm drawing a blank. Don't think it happens often - this isn't the NBA.

 

Also, no FO in baseball would have predicted that Springer, Vlad, Kirk, Chapman, Varsho and Jansen (to a lesser extent) would underperform this year offensively. I find it difficult to blame this FO. If 3 of those 6 perform to expectations, we're firmly in the playoffs right now. The players deserve the blame.

 

It happens more in the NBA and Euro soccer leagues I think. Don't really hear it much in baseball but I'm sure some ML star players ask for trades. Halladay I recall probably asked for a trade in 2009 and after the season when AA took over, but it was a given the Jays weren't contending and were going to move him with only one season left under contract. If the Jays didn't trade Doc, he probably would have been disgruntled but would have still worked extremely hard since he would be pitching for a contract. A star player in the middle of their contract and years away from free agency probably would have a different attitude.

 

I don't think the Jays will have that issue at all following this season, even if they miss the Postseason.

 

The struggles in 2023 definitely should be blamed more on the players than the FO. Though the FO will still get some blame if this team misses the Postseason. Atkins and his team were the ones who put this roster together, so yes their player assessment was off, in this case 5 regulars of their starting 9, which is a lot. Springer is an aging and injury prone OF, Vlad regressed already offensively in 2022, Kirk was always out of shape and really only hit in May/June of 2022, Varsho did have some flaws offensively even before he was acquired and Jansen has always been fragile and streaky. Don't know what happened to Chapman after April, but tough to blame the FO on him for his struggles. Like you said, if 2 or 3 of those guys play up to expectation, the Jays are most likely in a better position.

 

Regardless, some serious questions and decisions will have to be made for next season regarding some core players on the roster, especially if they miss the Postseason.

[BigCecil]

Sending him for an MRI at 5:00 PM yesterday, sent me red flags(why so late?). Worrisome indeed.

 

With Bo, sometimes there is a referral from another injury from over compensating in recovery Happens to pitchers a lot. I've had it happen. Pure speculation on Bo.

 

Hope he is ok.

[Terminator]

When was the last time a ML star player asked for a trade and was traded? I'm drawing a blank. Don't think it happens often - this isn't the NBA.

 

Also, no FO in baseball would have predicted that Springer, Vlad, Kirk, Chapman, Varsho and Jansen (to a lesser extent) would underperform this year offensively. I find it difficult to blame this FO. If 3 of those 6 perform to expectations, we're firmly in the playoffs right now. The players deserve the blame.

 

Agreed. I'm probably forgetting something but Ken Griffey Jr. is the last one to come to mind and that was over 20 years ago. The players and their union don't give a s*** about things like forcing trades from bad orgs. If anything, they encourage players to sign with bad orgs if the bad org is offering the most money.

[Spanky99]

With Bo, sometimes there is a referral from another injury from over compensating in recovery Happens to pitchers a lot. I've had it happen. Pure speculation on Bo.

 

Hope he is ok.

 

Yeah, it's his quad and they said dtd... then late afternoon/early evening they sent him 2 hrs pregame for it, didn't sit right, mate. Raised my brow, hope my gut's wrong, lol.

[Terminator]

Don't worry, Ernie Clement is going to slap hit us straight into the easy-to-make playoffs.

[BigCecil]

Don't worry, Ernie Clement is going to slap hit us straight into the easy-to-make playoffs.

 

I think we all agree that is a given.

[Stangstag]

When was the last time a ML star player asked for a trade and was traded? I'm drawing a blank. Don't think it happens often - this isn't the NBA.

 

Also, no FO in baseball would have predicted that Springer, Vlad, Kirk, Chapman, Varsho and Jansen (to a lesser extent) would underperform this year offensively. I find it difficult to blame this FO. If 3 of those 6 perform to expectations, we're firmly in the playoffs right now. The players deserve the blame.

 

Probably like Scherzer?? Verlander? Arenado I think?

 

It does happen, just not in a situation where the team is actually good. Jonn is dumm

[Spanky99]

Probably like Scherzer?? Verlander? Arenado I think?

 

It does happen, just not in a situation where the team is actually good. Jonn is dumm

 

Not Arenado, but the arm's did and the team gave them an out, it was relatively mutual. And a weird Mets situation.

[wilko]

Not Arenado, but the arm's did and the team gave them an out, it was relatively mutual. And a weird Mets situation.

 

Mets gonna Met.

[Spanky99]

Mets gonna Met.

 

They'll be hard in the paint on Ohtani... I still think the unicorn stays in LA, Dodgers or Angels.

[The Cats Ass]

They'll be hard in the paint on Ohtani... I still think the unicorn stays in LA, Dodgers or Angels.

 

No way he re-signs with the Angels. He wants to win, he's outta there even if they offer the most money.

[Spanky99]

No way he re-signs with the Angels. He wants to win, he's outta there even if they offer the most money.

 

We're talkin about Ohtani, and he eye witnessed what they tried, he's also loyal and a man's man. I'm not sure it matters, aside from winning.

[The Cats Ass]

Also, no FO in baseball would have predicted that Springer, Vlad, Kirk, Chapman, Varsho and Jansen (to a lesser extent) would underperform this year offensively. I find it difficult to blame this FO. If 3 of those 6 perform to expectations, we're firmly in the playoffs right now. The players deserve the blame.

 

I wonder what the first 3 would have to slash in September to bring their season numbers up to their pre-season projections.

[Spanky99]

I wonder what the first 3 would have to slash in September to bring their season numbers up to their pre-season projections.

 

Vlad and Springer, but Kirky continues to hit.

[Spanky99]