Montoyo Fired

[Brownie19]

Chuckles is the perfect minor league manager. No pressure to win, the ability to mesh with the staff and new guys year after year, positive attitude, allow the other coaches to work with players to develop skills and just sit back and oversee the operation.

 

Do you think accountability is key at the major league level, but not required in the minors? If anything, I'd expect it would be more important in the minors because the players are younger and more immature. Developing good habits and establishing expectations from the organization would seem like a priority to me.

[Brownie19]

Believe it or not pro athletes want to be held accountable. This notion that managing the egos of millionaires is impossible because they’ll do what they want anyway is wrong.

 

These guys have spent quite literally their entire lives under the instruction of someone else. They thrive on being told what to do, having positive reinforcement when they do something right and being told when they are doing something wrong. Whether that’s in the weight room, analyzing swings, footwork on balls in play, etc. Their abilities don’t make them immune from criticism from superiors especially at the highest level. If that superior can’t hold them accountable then problems and bad habits will begin to surface.

 

Who's suggesting this?

 

I've obviously enjoyed this debate over the past few days, but I was suggesting that I don't think yelling at adults is overly effective. I also was asking which managers consistently hold players accountable for mental errors and poor play as I don't think you see this on a regular basis. I agree that players should be held accountable, but I think most of that happens behind the scenes. I think rarely do managers show up players in game by pulling them or benching them. Are guys given the night off as punishment on a regular basis? Hard to know these days as the benefits of giving players more days off is now so popular you'd never know if it was disciplinary or for physical reasons and teams aren't going to release that info to the public.

 

You're second part is interesting though as a lot of players also have their own coaches/teams that they train with in the offseason. If a pitcher trains with driveline all year and they work on mechanics, pitch grips, spin rates, tunneling, etc. I wonder how often there is conflict with the team coaches. The coach wants a higher release point and different pitch usage than what the pitcher has trained with all winter. This was likely not a huge issue 20 years ago, but I have to think team coaches have to be a bit more open to the idea that 'their' way may not be the only way and they probably have to work with the players a lot more to work towards a common goal.

 

Another example would be a player works with some proven training facility all offseason, comes to camp with a new leg kick...it's not like the hitting coach can or should just tell him to scrap that idea. Interesting stuff.

[Solaxys]

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2385844

 

Looks like Bo wasn't that big of a fan of Charlie

[John_Havok]

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2385844

 

Looks like Bo wasn't that big of a fan of Charlie

 

Per Bo, on the promotions of Schneider to interim manager and the guy from AAA to bench coach ""I think they'll bring direction, I think they'll bring accountability. They'll bring a presence that's really important for a team."

 

Looks like Bo probably wasn't feeling that Charlie was providing those things. Direction, accountability, presence.

[John_Havok]

Who's suggesting this?

 

I've obviously enjoyed this debate over the past few days, but I was suggesting that I don't think yelling at adults is overly effective. I also was asking which managers consistently hold players accountable for mental errors and poor play as I don't think you see this on a regular basis. I agree that players should be held accountable, but I think most of that happens behind the scenes. I think rarely do managers show up players in game by pulling them or benching them. Are guys given the night off as punishment on a regular basis? Hard to know these days as the benefits of giving players more days off is now so popular you'd never know if it was disciplinary or for physical reasons and teams aren't going to release that info to the public.

 

You're second part is interesting though as a lot of players also have their own coaches/teams that they train with in the offseason. If a pitcher trains with driveline all year and they work on mechanics, pitch grips, spin rates, tunneling, etc. I wonder how often there is conflict with the team coaches. The coach wants a higher release point and different pitch usage than what the pitcher has trained with all winter. This was likely not a huge issue 20 years ago, but I have to think team coaches have to be a bit more open to the idea that 'their' way may not be the only way and they probably have to work with the players a lot more to work towards a common goal.

 

Another example would be a player works with some proven training facility all offseason, comes to camp with a new leg kick...it's not like the hitting coach can or should just tell him to scrap that idea. Interesting stuff.

 

You make solid points. There's the old school type of thinking where the manager has to be a hard ass, has to yell at the players, drill into them they have to do everything 1 way... my way or the highway and if you cant get with the program... etc etc etc. That way of managing is dead. Why? Because it had no flexibility. The manager was managing one way, for everyone, regardless of the range of personalities on the roster. Some personalities repond to that kind of thing. Some don't.

 

THen there's the new school, contructive feedback. Well, that was good, but here's how we might be able to do better. Lets give that a shot. - some personalities respond to that kind of thing. Some don't.

 

The best managers, leaders, in any business are the ones who can communicate effectively the way each personality needs to be communicated to. If you kick everyone in the ass and never offer support, you'll lose a massive amount of the room. If all you ever do is give people cookies and say theyre doing fine, youll lose a massive amount of the room. You have to be able to do both and everything in between.

 

Charlie seems like the "Give everyone a cookie" kind of manager and couldnt find a way to be the other guy to those who needed it.

[HERPDERP]

Per Bo, on the promotions of Schneider to interim manager and the guy from AAA to bench coach ""I think they'll bring direction, I think they'll bring accountability. They'll bring a presence that's really important for a team."

 

Looks like Bo probably wasn't feeling that Charlie was providing those things. Direction, accountability, presence.

 

What comes to mind

-Teoscar and his lack of hustle and no accountability for that

-Sunglasses-gate x2

-Vladdy glove-gate x2

 

And perhaps Bichette was tired of the loose comraderies of the barrio which is why he refused to wear the jacket

[Laika]

Bo refused to wear the jacket?

 

I didn't notice that. That's pretty saucy.

 

Interesting that Bo is the one who seems to support the change given his struggles this year.

[Laika]

Bo needs a beeeg stronnnnggggg daddy figure to be mean to him

[Dagagad]

Accountability for Bo should mean hitting 5th and playing second base. He’s been a massive beneficiary of lack of accountability lol.

 

Kudos to him that he can see that if that’s the case though.

[polar bear]

Ross did mention, philosophical differences, as for the latter we shall see what he has up his sleeve soon.

Probably just his arm.

 

I’m eager to see if Schneider replaces any of the other coaches. He said something like “im happy to be in charge of my own coaching staff” which to me sounded like he would be making some changes. Maybe I read into it too much

[polar bear]

Ross did mention, philosophical differences, as for the latter we shall see what he has up his sleeve soon.

 

He could also be a great bench coach or third base / first base coach.

 

No thanks,I’ve seen enough.

[L54]

Exactly. If the player is worth a f*** then he wants the manager to tell him how to get better. They want to get better so they get more money. Imagine this chucklehead literally playing bongos in a storage room, jesus christ.

 

And you can easily lose the lockerroom if hard ass players think you're too soft on their teammates. Bichette might not be having the greatest year but he strikes me as a guy who works 24/7. He probably would lose his mind if he saw chuckles going soft when Teo forgets to run back to 1b or something.

 

Bichette might look like Justin Bieber but I'm pretty sure he works his ass off you're right. There is no doubt Dante wasn't a "do your best son" kind of dad, Dante was an intense get your s*** done kid kind of dad. Exact opposite of Charlie.

[L54]

He could also be a great bench coach or third base / first base coach.

 

Yup agreed. He's not a leader, that became obvious.

[L54]

Do you think accountability is key at the major league level, but not required in the minors? If anything, I'd expect it would be more important in the minors because the players are younger and more immature. Developing good habits and establishing expectations from the organization would seem like a priority to me.

 

No I don't think accountability is required in the minor leagues. I think it's best to let 18-23 year olds run wild and let them do whatever they want. Bonding for the boys

 

Like did you even read what I said? Nowhere did I mention anything about accountability. I think it's easier for Charlie to hold a 20 year old in AA accountable than it is for him to hold Bo Bichette or Vladdy accountable. Why? Because Vladdy and Bo would walk all over him because he's not fit to lead a major league team that's why.

[jaysblue]

Bo needs a beeeg stronnnnggggg daddy figure to be mean to him

 

[L54]

Who's suggesting this?

 

I've obviously enjoyed this debate over the past few days, but I was suggesting that I don't think yelling at adults is overly effective. I also was asking which managers consistently hold players accountable for mental errors and poor play as I don't think you see this on a regular basis. I agree that players should be held accountable, but I think most of that happens behind the scenes. I think rarely do managers show up players in game by pulling them or benching them. Are guys given the night off as punishment on a regular basis? Hard to know these days as the benefits of giving players more days off is now so popular you'd never know if it was disciplinary or for physical reasons and teams aren't going to release that info to the public.

 

You're second part is interesting though as a lot of players also have their own coaches/teams that they train with in the offseason. If a pitcher trains with driveline all year and they work on mechanics, pitch grips, spin rates, tunneling, etc. I wonder how often there is conflict with the team coaches. The coach wants a higher release point and different pitch usage than what the pitcher has trained with all winter. This was likely not a huge issue 20 years ago, but I have to think team coaches have to be a bit more open to the idea that 'their' way may not be the only way and they probably have to work with the players a lot more to work towards a common goal.

 

Another example would be a player works with some proven training facility all offseason, comes to camp with a new leg kick...it's not like the hitting coach can or should just tell him to scrap that idea. Interesting stuff.

 

Man I don't know why you're taking Charlie's firing so personally. Like I said to you earlier if you can't see that these guys didn't respect Charlie then I really don't know what to tell you - it was painfully obvious to anyone who knew what they were watching. Nobody is saying you need someone yelling and screaming at these guys day in and day out that is a narrative you keep repeating that nobody else has.

 

Imagine Charlie Montoyo coming into the clubhouse and flipping a lid on the team after that Seattle series. Guys would roll their eyes and probably try and hide their laughter. They didn't take him seriously. Now imagine someone who demands your respect doing it - totally different message sent and received.

 

As far as Driveline or whatever... if a pitcher comes back a better pitcher (which presumably is the reason they went to Driveline) why would the pitching coach want to change anything?

[Spanky__99]

I’m eager to see if Schneider replaces any of the other coaches. He said something like “im happy to be in charge of my own coaching staff” which to me sounded like he would be making some changes. Maybe I read into it too much

 

Casey Candeale?

[L54]

Per Bo, on the promotions of Schneider to interim manager and the guy from AAA to bench coach ""I think they'll bring direction, I think they'll bring accountability. They'll bring a presence that's really important for a team."

 

Looks like Bo probably wasn't feeling that Charlie was providing those things. Direction, accountability, presence.

 

Pretty much everything I've been saying

 

No accountability

No leadership

It's important for the ship to have a captain

[Omar]

Let’s see how the batting order is affected. If it changes than we know Charlie had control over it, if it doesn’t than someone else calling the shots.

 

So this took one game before changes were made. Draw your own conclusions but it may come down to something as simple as Charlie was afraid to meddle with order to avoid upsetting others. Either that or he’s dumn:p

[Omar]

Pretty much everything I've been saying

 

No accountability

No leadership

It's important for the ship to have a captain

 

Don’t know why the media and others are acting like this is a revelation. We could see it from our tv screens. The body language of the players and coaches was telling.

[L54]

Don’t know why the media and others are acting like this is a revelation. We could see it from our tv screens. The body language of the players and coaches was telling.

 

It was plain to see. Hopefully Johnny boy can do the job.

[Krylian]

 

Looks like Bo probably wasn't feeling that Charlie was providing those things. Direction, accountability, presence.

 

Charlie was bringing the bongos.

[Spanky__99]

It was plain to see. Hopefully Johnny boy can do the job.

 

He's got dis'

[Boxcar]

Imagine opting to replace Gibby with this clown, extending him and then ultimately firing him for being a s***** manager who lost the clubhouse. Maybe Atkins should fire himself.

 

John Gibbons had worse teams and never lost his team's respect. This is as much on Atkins for casting aside a great manager in favor of hand picking a guy who had none of the traits needed to succeed in the role.

[Brownie19]

As far as Driveline or whatever... if a pitcher comes back a better pitcher (which presumably is the reason they went to Driveline) why would the pitching coach want to change anything?

 

Obviously I'm talking about what happens when the pitcher slumps or has some struggles. Pitching coach tells him it's because his release point dropped - but that conflicts with all the training he did this past winter at Driveline where they worked to lower his release point to create more movement/spin.

 

I'm just curious if it's more difficult for hitting/pitching coaches these days because players are getting such improved training by true professionals in laboratories during the offseason.

[Brownie19]

Man I don't know why you're taking Charlie's firing so personally. Like I said to you earlier if you can't see that these guys didn't respect Charlie then I really don't know what to tell you - it was painfully obvious to anyone who knew what they were watching. Nobody is saying you need someone yelling and screaming at these guys day in and day out that is a narrative you keep repeating that nobody else has.

 

Imagine Charlie Montoyo coming into the clubhouse and flipping a lid on the team after that Seattle series. Guys would roll their eyes and probably try and hide their laughter. They didn't take him seriously. Now imagine someone who demands your respect doing it - totally different message sent and received.

 

As far as Driveline or whatever... if a pitcher comes back a better pitcher (which presumably is the reason they went to Driveline) why would the pitching coach want to change anything?

 

I was simply trying to get clarification on who suggested that "managing the egos of millionaires is impossible because they’ll do what they want anyway". I assumed you were referring to me and I wanted to clarify that's not what I said. I understand why Charlie was fired and I'm not losing any sleep over it. I think some of the comments about what fans "knew" are a bit much though.

 

I can also buy you're suggesting that Charlie could conceivably hold minor leaguers accountable, even though you think he couldn't do it at the ML level.

 

It's ironic that Bo wants (needs?) a tough Daddy in the clubhouse. If he was playing better this year, Charlie may still have a job. Will be interesting to see if a new manager makes a tangible difference. Hope it does!

[M.E.]

every time I see this thread I smile with glee that the firing of CM actually happened. i didn't think they would do it in season and when they make the playoffs they would have given CM more time

[Stangstag]

every time I see this thread I smile with glee that the firing of CM actually happened. i didn't think they would do it in season and when they make the playoffs they would have given CM more time

 

Funny how he just dropped off the face of the planet. Haven’t seen/heard anything from him since the firing.

[Jimcanuck]

Funny how he just dropped off the face of the planet. Haven’t seen/heard anything from him since the firing.

 

He's in a corner somewhere crying.

[Krylian]

He's in a corner somewhere crying.