General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2022)

[Spanky99]

No George in the lineup tonight…

 

DL stint likely I guess, just hope its not a major elbow issue that prevents him from playing the OF for the rest of the year

 

Seems that way...

 

[Spanky99]

Hahaha... tell em' Tim...

 

[Laika]

Mostly every pitcher is at more of a disadvantage third time through the order, versus first or second. Though that doesn't mean some of your top starters can't pitch a third time through the order. Again a lot depends on score, matchups, game situation, pitch count, # of stressful innings/pitches prior and most importantly the bullpen arms you have available. No reason why some of the Blue Jays top starters like Manoah, Gausman and Berrios can't pitch past the seventh inning on occasion when they have a good pitch count and aren't laboring. If they're cruising along, keep them in.

 

If the score is 4-1 or 5-1 entering the 7th or 8th inning, and one of those starters is around 90 or so pitches, let them go out for the 7th or 8th and have guys in the BP warming up if need be. Again, depends on matchups at that time in the game.

 

Nobody is saying they "can't".

 

Don't muddle the point

[gruber92]

Ross must be showcasing Biggio, Vladdy has been DHing way too often.

[jaysblue]

Nobody is saying they "can't".

 

Don't muddle the point

 

I'm not muddling the point. Though the thinking amongst front offices, management and stat geeks is that starters shouldn't be pushed going 7 or 8 innings/100 pitches and you're seeing that more and more around baseball. A lot of managers pull guys after only 70 or 80 pitches sometimes and don't allow their starters to work deeper into games. If you have an elite and deep bullpen then the strategy can work majority of the time, though when you have a mediocre bullpen, good luck over a full 162 game season. You will never see arms/workhorses like Verlander, Halladay, Oswalt, Wainwright, Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling etc. coming up again. The days of starters pitching 220 or more innings is over. Even last season, only 7 starters in all of baseball threw more than 200 innings. Wouldn't surprise me to see that number lower moving forward.

Edited June 25, 2022 by jaysblue

[John_Havok]

I'm not muddling the point. Though the thinking amongst front offices, management and stat geeks is that starters shouldn't be pushed going 7 or 8 innings/100 pitches and you're seeing that more and more around baseball. A lot of managers pull guys after only 70 or 80 pitches sometimes and don't allow their starters to work deeper into games. If you have an elite and deep bullpen then the strategy can work majority of the time, though when you have a mediocre bullpen, good luck over a full 162 game season. You will never see arms/workhorses like Verlander, Halladay, Burnett, Wainwright, Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling etc. coming up again. The days of starters pitching 220 or more innings is over. Even last season, only 7 starters in all of baseball threw more than 200 innings. Wouldn't surprise me to see that number lower moving forward.

 

Bad example with Burnett, even at the height of his non-injured-all-the-time years from 2008-2014 he surpassed 200 innings 4 times, and his highest 221. From 2006-2011 Halladays lowest total was 220.

[keggy]

Pulling a starter after twice through the order makes sense to me in a must win situation like the playoffs when there are plenty of off days.

 

Doing it consistently over a long season seems like a recipe to shred your bullpen though.

[keggy]

No George in the lineup tonight…

 

DL stint likely I guess, just hope its not a major elbow issue that prevents him from playing the OF for the rest of the year

 

Management is bricked up thinking about how many PAs Tapia can get now.

[Deadpool]

I wonder what the actual follow up process is for these guys. Like I know we'll never see it or really even hear about it, but there has to be some kind of mechanism that would require someone to go over a game like this with the ump after the fact and point out how very clearly wrong he was on 35% of his called strikes in an effort to have him clearly see where his blind spots were so he could potentially improve going forward.

 

But then again, Angel Hernandez. So obviously there is no mechanism.

 

Ah well, most of their ball strike decisions will be replaced soon enough

 

Disagree. 5 years ago would have been "soon enough".

[connorp]

T

I'm not muddling the point. Though the thinking amongst front offices, management and stat geeks is that starters shouldn't be pushed going 7 or 8 innings/100 pitches and you're seeing that more and more around baseball. A lot of managers pull guys after only 70 or 80 pitches sometimes and don't allow their starters to work deeper into games. If you have an elite and deep bullpen then the strategy can work majority of the time, though when you have a mediocre bullpen, good luck over a full 162 game season. You will never see arms/workhorses like Verlander, Halladay, Burnett, Wainwright, Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling etc. coming up again. The days of starters pitching 220 or more innings is over. Even last season, only 7 starters in all of baseball threw more than 200 innings. Wouldn't surprise me to see that number lower moving forward.

 

Yeah it’s no annoying when guys are like “look at Tampa, that’s how you do it”… so great with the analytical decisions… let’s trade BPs with Tampa any of these years and see how they do

[connorp]

Score 1-1 tied in the 6th. Time to pull out really good SP and put Richards in LOL

 

Oh by the way, that’s how we lost our last playoff series lol… trying to be Tampa

 

Let’s give the ball to a guy that won’t be in the majors next year

[BigCecil]

 

Joke. Eddings should get a 10 game suspension for sucking so incredibly badly affecting the outcome of a MLB game. The accountability here is misplaced.

 

Props Martinez - it was worth it.

[jaysblue]

Bad example with Burnett, even at the height of his non-injured-all-the-time years from 2008-2014 he surpassed 200 innings 4 times, and his highest 221. From 2006-2011 Halladays lowest total was 220.

 

Yeah sorry about the Burnett addition, his 2008 season was at the back of my mind when mentioning him. Doc and him were such a fantastic 1-2 punch and workhorses that season. Should have used Oswalt instead haha.

Edited June 25, 2022 by jaysblue

[jaysblue]

T

 

Yeah it’s no annoying when guys are like “look at Tampa, that’s how you do it”… so great with the analytical decisions… let’s trade BPs with Tampa any of these years and see how they do

 

I love Tampa and they're one of my favourite organizations though what works in Tampa doesn't repeat and work for all the remaining 29 teams. Not every team will have a deep bullpen and deep system of arms who they can call up and rely on over 162 games.

[jaysblue]

Pulling a starter after twice through the order makes sense to me in a must win situation like the playoffs when there are plenty of off days.

 

Doing it consistently over a long season seems like a recipe to shred your bullpen though.

 

Over a 162 game season, if you don't have a strong bullpen, you need your top starters to go deep into games, even if that means having them throw 100-110 pitches. It's not going to kill them. That's why a starter like Roy Halladay was so valuable. You knew even on his bad days (maybe he gives up 4ER), he would give you 6 or 7 innings and save the bullpen.

 

In the Postseason, you definitely can manage differently. You can shorten the game for starting pitchers and use your elite BP arms two games in a row, knowing they will have an off-day and be rested for Game 3.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Just in reference to up and coming Jays arms in the system:

 

Some are hopeful starters and some are straight up relievers, but it'll be interesting to watch and see if any of these guys end up as useful future high leverage bullpen pieces.

 

 

1. Nick Frasso - (23) - 14.54 K/9 - 2.91 BB/9 - 2.21 xFIP - (A)

2. Ricky Tiedemann - (19) - 14.09 K/9 - 3.02 BB/9 - 2.29 xFIP - (A, A+)

3. Dahian Santos - (19) - 15.71 K/9 - 5.09 BB/9 - 2.87 xFIP - (A)

4. Jimmy Burnette - (23) - 17.78 K/9 - 5.27 BB/9 - 2.89 xFIP - (A+, AA)

5. Conor Larkin - (23) - 11.63 K/9 - 3.74 BB/9 - 3.00 xFIP - (A, A+)

6. Yosver Zulueta - (24) - 13.63 K/9 - 3.53 BB/9 - 3.00 xFIP - (A, A+)

7. Brandon Eisert - (24) - 11.28 K/9 - 2.39 BB/9 - 3.00 xFIP - (AAA)

8. Braden Scott - (24) - 14.10 K/9 - 3.90 BB/9 - 3.06 xFIP - (A, A+, AA)

9. Trenton Wallace - (23) - 12.51 K/9 - 2.54 BB/9 - 3.14 xFIP - (A)

10. Connor Cooke - (22) - 12.46 K/9 - 3.12 BB/9 - 3.29 xFIP - (A)

11. Adrian Hernandez - (22) - 12.75 K/9 - 3.75 BB/9 - 3.34 xFIP (AA, AAA)

 

 

Lots of 22-24 year old guys performing right now, that you hope will move up to AAA/MLB in the next year or so.

 

And there are still other guys to keep an eye on like Robberse, Ohashi, Kloffenstein, Dallas, Juenger, Danner, Palmer, etc

 

Hopefully some of this s*** sticks to the wall.

[Laika]

Funny how in the last two weeks... Biggio looks like his old self and Espinal looks like his old bench player self.

[connorp]

Funny how in the last two weeks... Biggio looks like his old self and Espinal looks like his old bench player self.

 

Last time you guys group pimped Biggio, he went on a nosedive. Espy is discouraging. Maybe he’s getting too far removed from the off-season cycle

[Dagagad]

Funny how in the last two weeks... Biggio looks like his old self and Espinal looks like his old bench player self.

 

I don’t believe but we’ll see.

 

Espinal has had to deal with some outrageous umping seemingly aimed squarely at him as well. Also, I just flat believe in his swing more against more types of pitching.

 

Espinal could use a day off though.

[Spanky99]

Last time you guys group pimped Biggio, he went on a nosedive. Espy is discouraging. Maybe he’s getting too far removed from the off-season cycle

 

A healthy Biggio's good, bro. Don't sweat it.

[Laika]

I don’t believe but we’ll see.

 

Espinal has had to deal with some outrageous umping seemingly aimed squarely at him as well. Also, I just flat believe in his swing more against more types of pitching.

 

Espinal could use a day off though.

 

Bad calls aside he's flailing at everything and making horrible contact

[Sorrow]

Biggio literally had one bad week to start the year. Biggio's sample size is small due to injury and AAA time but he has a 137 wRC+ since the 17th of April, Espinal has a 101. Since May 1st Espinal has 95 wRC+. In the last 30ish days Espinal has lost 1.1 fWAR (IIRC). Biggio should be getting every start at 2B against RHP.

[Laika]

They are who we thought they were

[Laika]

Biggio haters are in shambles

 

Espinal maxis in tears

[King]

Kirk rocking a casual 196 wRC+ since the start of May.

 

I know that's unsustainable production but wondering what his true talent level is. He doesn't look like he's getting lucky to me, actually underperforming his xxwOBA by a significant margin on the year. His MLB stats this year are similar to what he was doing in the minors, now.

 

What a stud.

 

Steamer has him as the 17th best hitter in baseball right now:

1) Vlad

2) Yordan

3) Soto

4) Trout

---- (tier drop)

5) Judge

6) Tucker

7) Tatis

----- (tier drop)

Harper

Ramirez

Stanton

Devers

Pete Alonso

Acuna

Goldy

Freeman

Bregman

Kirk

 

 

Just ahead of guys like Ohtani and Betts.

[Jimcanuck]

Kirk rocking a casual 196 wRC+ since the start of May.

 

I know that's unsustainable production but wondering what his true talent level is. He doesn't look like he's getting lucky to me, actually underperforming his xxwOBA by a significant margin on the year. His MLB stats this year are similar to what he was doing in the minors, now.

 

What a stud.

 

Steamer has him as the 17th best hitter in baseball right now:

1) Vlad

2) Yordan

3) Soto

4) Trout

---- (tier drop)

5) Judge

6) Tucker

7) Tatis

----- (tier drop)

Harper

Ramirez

Stanton

Devers

Pete Alonso

Acuna

Goldy

Freeman

Bregman

Kirk

 

 

Just ahead of guys like Ohtani and Betts.

 

His numbers this year are similar to his MiLB numbers. True talent 160 wRC+, minimum

[BigCecil]

Biggio literally had one bad week to start the year. Biggio's sample size is small due to injury and AAA time but he has a 137 wRC+ since the 17th of April, Espinal has a 101. Since May 1st Espinal has 95 wRC+. In the last 30ish days Espinal has lost 1.1 fWAR (IIRC). Biggio should be getting every start at 2B against RHP.

 

Charlie bats Espy lead off because based on this its important he gets the most PAs. Right?

 

Biggio has always been a key piece given our LHH pathetic situation. Its good to see him barreling balls and BB'ing again.

 

Espy is a solid piece, and I expect he will rebound some, but we need to be smart and ride the hot hand.

[King]

His numbers this year are similar to his MiLB numbers. True talent 160 wRC+, minimum

 

So you think he belongs in the tier with Vlad, Soto, Trout and Alvarez? I'm not so sure about that

[Laika]

Kirk rocking a casual 196 wRC+ since the start of May.

 

I know that's unsustainable production but wondering what his true talent level is. He doesn't look like he's getting lucky to me, actually underperforming his xxwOBA by a significant margin on the year. His MLB stats this year are similar to what he was doing in the minors, now.

 

What a stud.

 

Steamer has him as the 17th best hitter in baseball right now:

1) Vlad

2) Yordan

3) Soto

4) Trout

---- (tier drop)

5) Judge

6) Tucker

7) Tatis

----- (tier drop)

Harper

Ramirez

Stanton

Devers

Pete Alonso

Acuna

Goldy

Freeman

Bregman

Kirk

 

 

Just ahead of guys like Ohtani and Betts.

 

And hilariously the bowling ball has more defensive value than many of those other names

[Jimcanuck]

So you think he belongs in the tier with Vlad, Soto, Trout and Alvarez? I'm not so sure about that

 

Ya, maybe 160 too high, not enough power for that. But if he keeps his K rate below 10% and keeps barrelling balls.....