Around Baseball 2022

[BTS]

If the Jays didn't have Price, they wouldn't have won the division. Who would have made his 11 starts instead? Jays won 9 of the games he started.

 

They were the best team in baseball. They averaged 7 runs a game in Price’s starts. I think it’s pretty wild to say Price was worth 6 wins above replacement in an 11-game stint. They most likely go like 7-4 in that stretch instead of 9-2 if they had to use replacement level arms. And still win the division.

[BTS]

I feel like I’m arguing with people from 15 years ago. I get that the team went 3-1 against NY in Price starts, but come on people.

[Spanky__99]

lol

[Spanky__99]

I feel like I’m arguing with people from 15 years ago.

 

Price was dominant, and spear headed our turn around, there's no denying it. Great trade.

[connorp]

These are the arguments you really have to be committed to, deep diving into the sss from 10 years ago lol

[max silver]

I feel like I’m arguing with people from 15 years ago. I get that the team went 3-1 against NY in Price starts, but come on people.

 

I can't believe that you are arguing against the merits of acquiring an ace starter for a team expected to go on a deep playoff run. Sure Price struggled a bit in the playoffs but it was still easily worth what was paid to bring him aboard. It's not like a top prospect such as Noah Syndergaard was moved out, it was more guys that had ceilings of mid rotation arms if everything panned out for them. This is the type of trade a true contending ballclub should make in their sleep.

[BTS]

I can't believe that you are arguing against the merits of acquiring an ace starter for a team expected to go on a deep playoff run. Sure Price struggled a bit in the playoffs but it was still easily worth what was paid to bring him aboard. It's not like a top prospect such as Noah Syndergaard was moved out, it was more guys that had ceilings of mid rotation arms if everything panned out for them. This is the type of trade a true contending ballclub should make in their sleep.

 

I haven’t once ITT argued against the merits of trading for Price. He was great. The trade was good. The team would have won the division without him.

[Spanky__99]

I haven’t once ITT argued against the merits of trading for Price. He was great. The trade was good. The team would have won the division without him.

 

Shaddup, then.

[max silver]

Shaddup, then.

 

Yeah I'm totally missing the point here. It is impossible to overrstate how important an addition like Price was to the roster. Missed in all of this is that it was David Price pitching instead of a depth level starter whoever that would have been at the time. Instead we would have been seeing starters the likes of Drew Hutchison, Matthew Boyd and Daniel Norris. It's pretty hard to see the team only losing a few more games with these types of starters throwing every fifth game instead of an ace like Price. Price provided with a massive amount of innings as well which greatly reduced the overall load on the bullpen. Think if these inferior pitchers were getting their teeth knocked in, there would have been far more innings thrown by the middle relief and long relief options.

[BTS]

Sucks for the Mets losing like 20 wins this year if DeGrom has to be replaced with AAAA depth for the entire season. They don’t even have the best offense in baseball, so it might be closer to 25.

[connorp]

Sucks for the Mets losing like 20 wins this year if DeGrom has to be replaced with AAAA depth for the entire season. They don’t even have the best offense in baseball, so it might be closer to 25.

 

You sound like a casual. You saying Degrom is worth 20 WAR? Sounds like it

[Spanky__99]

lol

[Abomination]

Sucks for the Mets losing like 20 wins this year if DeGrom has to be replaced with AAAA depth for the entire season. They don’t even have the best offense in baseball, so it might be closer to 25.

 

Can you untie the real BTS and let him back on his computer again?

[max silver]

You sound like a casual. You saying Degrom is worth 20 WAR? Sounds like it

 

Certainly an exaggeration but he was on track for something like 11 WAR over the course of a full season. Numbers like that don't come around very often. Going back the last three decades the only starters to have single season output in this range are Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez and Roger Clemens.

[max silver]

Sucks for the Mets losing like 20 wins this year if DeGrom has to be replaced with AAAA depth for the entire season. They don’t even have the best offense in baseball, so it might be closer to 25.

 

[jaysblue]

I haven’t once ITT argued against the merits of trading for Price. He was great. The trade was good. The team would have won the division without him.

 

You also fail to acknowledge that if the Jays didn't acquire Price at the deadline in 2015, what happens if the Yankees acquired him instead? Would the Blue Jays still have won the division?

[bzapple]

I'm shocked nobody has brought up the Mike Napoli for Frank Francisco trade. That was one of the biggest immediate backfires I can remember.

[King]

Does anyone know what the incentives are for teams to promote top prospects? Looks like Bobby Witt Jr, Julio Rodriguez, Hunter Greene among others are going to make their teams out of camp. This is just refreshing to see. The best prospects should be able to break spring training with their organizations if they are ready.

[Dick_Pole]

Worst all time trades according to this board:

 

Basically any rental

Any salary add

 

Complaining about Loaiza for Young makes sense. That was just a s*** trade, regardless of circumstance. But the Cone and Price trades? Come on. You're expected to give up something of value in those trades. Might as well add the Henderson/Karsay and Candiotti/Whiten/Hill trades too because those guys didn't immediately tank and become worthless once they left the Jays. Yes Kent turned into a HOF contender but that's the definition of a GOOD trade for both teams. Both teams won out of that deal. If Kent stays in Toronto and blocked by Alomar at least through 1995, does he have the career he has?

 

This Hendriks thing is just dumb. Average pitcher figures it out years later for a different team. s***, the Jays shouldn't have traded him. If Reese McGuire has a breakout season in 2026 are you guys going to cry spilt milk over that too?

 

The Sirotka/Wells deal is the undisputed king of bad trades just for the pure gross incompetence of it all and value that went the other way. Anything else is a distant second.

[Dick_Pole]

Now we should compare the top 5 worst trades to the top 5 best. Somehow I think the Jays will come out on top of that exchange. Some off the top of my head:

 

Bautista for the backup catcher

McGriff trade, the one that brought him in. The Alomar deal is a debatable one since a lot of value came in, but a lot of value left too.

Jose Cruz Jr. for the relievers. Even though he didn't become the next A-Rod, he was still a quality player and at the time that was highway robbery.

Tom Henke for Cliff Johnson. Before my time and I don't think it was a pure trade, more compensation for Johnson leaving, but that was a hell of a win regardless.

Hernandez/Liriano is looking pretty damn good right now.

[BTS]

Worst all time trades according to this board:

 

Basically any rental

Any salary add

 

Complaining about Loaiza for Young makes sense. That was just a s*** trade, regardless of circumstance. But the Cone and Price trades? Come on. You're expected to give up something of value in those trades. Might as well add the Henderson/Karsay and Candiotti/Whiten/Hill trades too because those guys didn't immediately tank and become worthless once they left the Jays. Yes Kent turned into a HOF contender but that's the definition of a GOOD trade for both teams. Both teams won out of that deal. If Kent stays in Toronto and blocked by Alomar at least through 1995, does he have the career he has?

 

This Hendriks thing is just dumb. Average pitcher figures it out years later for a different team. s***, the Jays shouldn't have traded him. If Reese McGuire has a breakout season in 2026 are you guys going to cry spilt milk over that too?

 

The Sirotka/Wells deal is the undisputed king of bad trades just for the pure gross incompetence of it all and value that went the other way. Anything else is a distant second.

 

Hendriks was borderline elite in 2015 before the Jays traded him. It was always a weird move, and it fell in the transitionary period when AA was gone and Atkins hadn't been hired.

[Jimcanuck]

Does anyone know what the incentives are for teams to promote top prospects? Looks like Bobby Witt Jr, Julio Rodriguez, Hunter Greene among others are going to make their teams out of camp. This is just refreshing to see. The best prospects should be able to break spring training with their organizations if they are ready.

 

J-Rod has just been confirmed for the M's opening day roster. The new CBA must have addressed the manipulation issue.

[Dick_Pole]

Hendriks was borderline elite in 2015 before the Jays traded him. It was always a weird move, and it fell in the transitionary period when AA was gone and Atkins hadn't been hired.

 

What I vaguely recall was generally neutral to positive reviews on the trade. He may have been a victim of the boards' smartasses falling back on the typical arguments to make the casuals or the out group here look dumb - SSS, reversion to the mean, ERA and W-L mean nothing etc.

[Laika]

Does anyone know what the incentives are for teams to promote top prospects? Looks like Bobby Witt Jr, Julio Rodriguez, Hunter Greene among others are going to make their teams out of camp. This is just refreshing to see. The best prospects should be able to break spring training with their organizations if they are ready.

 

Teams get incentive draft picks if they roster a rookie all year and that guy finishes high in MVP voting or first or second in ROY voting or makes the first or second all star team.

 

That's what I saw on twitter at least!

[Olerud363]

Yes Kent turned into a HOF contender but that's the definition of a GOOD trade for both teams. Both teams won out of that deal. If Kent stays in Toronto and blocked by Alomar at least through 1995, does he have the career he has?

 

I'm not disagreeing with you. Ring is a ring and I never missed Kent too much, and he was traded two other times (both times for good players) before breaking out.

 

In an alternative history Kent could have played 3rd instead of Sprague.

 

In August 1992 Jays had

 

Roberto Alomar 24, Olerud 23, Kent 24, Delgado 20, Green 20ish, Gonzales

 

Would have been interesting to see those guys play together, all be given 150 games a year every year from the mid 90s until early 2000s

[Jimcanuck]

I'm not disagreeing with you. Ring is a ring and I never missed Kent too much, and he was traded two other times (both times for good players) before breaking out.

 

In an alternative history Kent could have played 3rd instead of Sprague.

 

In August 1992 Jays had

 

Roberto Alomar 24, Olerud 23, Kent 24, Delgado 20, Green 20ish, Gonzales

 

Would have been interesting to see those guys play together, all be given 150 games a year every year from the mid 90s until early 2000s

 

Great way to argue against a JRam deal

[BTS]

What I vaguely recall was generally neutral to positive reviews on the trade. He may have been a victim of the boards' smartasses falling back on the typical arguments to make the casuals or the out group here look dumb - SSS, reversion to the mean, ERA and W-L mean nothing etc.

 

I think people were riding the high of AA's firing and didn't want to be critical of the first trade made after his departure. I'm guessing that deal is never made if Atkins starts a few weeks earlier and LaCava isn't the interim GM.

 

Anyway, not hugely impactful, but I've always remembered it as being a strange move.

[Captain Adama]

Now we should compare the top 5 worst trades to the top 5 best. Somehow I think the Jays will come out on top of that exchange. Some off the top of my head:

 

Bautista for the backup catcher

McGriff trade, the one that brought him in. The Alomar deal is a debatable one since a lot of value came in, but a lot of value left too.

Jose Cruz Jr. for the relievers. Even though he didn't become the next A-Rod, he was still a quality player and at the time that was highway robbery.

Tom Henke for Cliff Johnson. Before my time and I don't think it was a pure trade, more compensation for Johnson leaving, but that was a hell of a win regardless.

Hernandez/Liriano is looking pretty damn good right now.

 

I'll still say the Dickey deal was the worst trade in history, not just for letting Syndergaard go, but also d'Arnaud leaving and thus having a replacement level shitheads in Arencibia and Thole as the two catchers.

 

Dickey RA/9 WAR: 9.6

Syndergaard WAR: 18.8

 

Travis d'Arnaud WAR: 8.8

JP Arencibia WAR: 0.0

Josh Thole WAR: -1.0 WAR (in basically f***ing 1 season worth of cumulative games)

 

Let's not forget the negative value that Dickey was generally not fun to watch pitch, even when he was having a good outing.

 

Best trade though should start with landing Josh Donaldson, looked incredible from the get go and only looked better as time played out.

[connorp]

Bautista trade prob biggest WAR win, no?

[John_Havok]

Worst all time trades according to this board:

 

Basically any rental

Any salary add

 

Complaining about Loaiza for Young makes sense. That was just a s*** trade, regardless of circumstance. But the Cone and Price trades? Come on. You're expected to give up something of value in those trades. Might as well add the Henderson/Karsay and Candiotti/Whiten/Hill trades too because those guys didn't immediately tank and become worthless once they left the Jays. Yes Kent turned into a HOF contender but that's the definition of a GOOD trade for both teams. Both teams won out of that deal. If Kent stays in Toronto and blocked by Alomar at least through 1995, does he have the career he has?

 

This Hendriks thing is just dumb. Average pitcher figures it out years later for a different team. s***, the Jays shouldn't have traded him. If Reese McGuire has a breakout season in 2026 are you guys going to cry spilt milk over that too?

 

The Sirotka/Wells deal is the undisputed king of bad trades just for the pure gross incompetence of it all and value that went the other way. Anything else is a distant second.

 

For me, I try to rate trades based on the idea and intent rather than the result. personally, i understood why the Jays wanted to add top end pitching when they did with the Dickey trade, I just never understood why Dickey was targeted as some kind of ace that would be the guy to carry a team to a title. Attaching your hopes to a 1 trick-pitch pony and giving up multiple top end talents to do so was just a dumb plan from the start. Had the target of that trade been an actual ace calibre pitcher with a real track record of dominance with no signs of slowing down with multiple yeras of control left like Dickey had... yeah, do it.

 

That's what makes it one of the most terrible trades from my perspective.