2021 Collective Bargaining Agreement Discussion Thread

[InsideThePark]

I hate banning the shift. I'm of the mind that if players can't beat the shift they don't deserve the help. More adaptable players will figure it out to some extent and make themselves more valuable and the 1 trick ponies like Gallo less valuable or obsolete completely. That being said I'm trying to keep an open mind and see how it goes. We've had shifts for a while now and most of the players are somewhat still 1 trick ponies rather than the handful that do hit to all fields. I think a lot of that has to do with the speed that almost all pitchers throw these days that it's more optimal to accept the strikeouts and ground outs to get the power. At that point maybe banning the shift makes the game a little more exciting? Not for me, but for the general population who doesn't spend 162 days a year watching a baseball game for 3 to 4 hours.

 

Banning the shift because Joey Gallo is sad he can't hit doubles is moronic. But if they're doing it because it makes the game more entertaining for more fans than I can live with it.

[Spanky99]

I hate banning the shift. I'm of the mind that if players can't beat the shift they don't deserve the help. More adaptable players will figure it out to some extent and make themselves more valuable and the 1 trick ponies like Gallo less valuable or obsolete completely. That being said I'm trying to keep an open mind and see how it goes. We've had shifts for a while now and most of the players are somewhat still 1 trick ponies rather than the handful that do hit to all fields. I think a lot of that has to do with the speed that almost all pitchers throw these days that it's more optimal to accept the strikeouts and ground outs to get the power. At that point maybe banning the shift makes the game a little more exciting? Not for me, but for the general population who doesn't spend 162 days a year watching a baseball game for 3 to 4 hours.

 

Banning the shift because Joey Gallo is sad he can't hit doubles is moronic. But if they're doing it because it makes the game more entertaining for more fans than I can live with it.

 

They're not doing this because Gallo's sad, lol. He's hardly a 1 trick pony also (3+ win player), but I get your jif. I don't care either way, lets just get a deal done and play some ball.

[Abomination]

2 infielders on each side of 2nd base should be fine. One could still be positioned almost up the middle, it just prevents the truly extreme shifts. I'm fully in favour of that. I'm NOT in favour of forcing players to stand in specific places.

[Ehjays]

162 back on??? Sounds like MLB is dangling it.

 

 

[InsideThePark]

They're not doing this because Gallo's sad, lol. He's hardly a 1 trick pony also (3+ win player), but I get your jif. I don't care either way, lets just get a deal done and play some ball.

 

I know that but it initially became a talking point because it makes it too difficult to get a hit and a lot of hitters became frustrated. I feel like that's the incentive, not because the games became boring.

 

I know Gallo's not a 1 trick pony, just the phrasing I used. He's a lot better of a player if teams can't use 4 outfielders and/or put 3 infielders on the same size of 2nd against him. If the shift gets banned next year he's a 5 win player, and I get annoyed players like that will be getting their way over more adaptable players.

[Brownie19]

I know that but it initially became a talking point because it makes it too difficult to get a hit and a lot of hitters became frustrated. I feel like that's the incentive, not because the games became boring.

 

I know Gallo's not a 1 trick pony, just the phrasing I used. He's a lot better of a player if teams can't use 4 outfielders and/or put 3 infielders on the same size of 2nd against him. If the shift gets banned next year he's a 5 win player, and I get annoyed players like that will be getting their way over more adaptable players.

 

They have been talking about this well before Gallo spoke out. They want more action in baseball. Fewer strikeouts, more hits, etc. I have to think those close to the game believe limiting the shift will create more action. I mean there already is a rule that you can't start a play standing in foul territory. I always thought that was odd...I mean if you want to stand in foul territory, that seems really stupid, so why not let them?

[Brownie19]

I hate banning the shift. I'm of the mind that if players can't beat the shift they don't deserve the help. More adaptable players will figure it out to some extent and make themselves more valuable and the 1 trick ponies like Gallo less valuable or obsolete completely. That being said I'm trying to keep an open mind and see how it goes. We've had shifts for a while now and most of the players are somewhat still 1 trick ponies rather than the handful that do hit to all fields. I think a lot of that has to do with the speed that almost all pitchers throw these days that it's more optimal to accept the strikeouts and ground outs to get the power. At that point maybe banning the shift makes the game a little more exciting? Not for me, but for the general population who doesn't spend 162 days a year watching a baseball game for 3 to 4 hours.

 

Banning the shift because Joey Gallo is sad he can't hit doubles is moronic. But if they're doing it because it makes the game more entertaining for more fans than I can live with it.

 

If players could adapt and suddenly hit .350 because people were shifting them all the time - they would have by now. If players had the ability to bunt and hit the other way, forcing teams to stop shifting on them - they would have by now. Teams, managers, coaches and players aren't stupid. You'd think at least some percentage of players would have adapted by now...maybe that tells us something?

[Brownie19]

Thats good to see, thats how you beat the shift.

 

Obviously it's not or the shift would be gone by now.

[TheHurl]

How does everyone feel about hiding your weakest fielder in a position which the ball won't go to? Cause that will likely happen now, if they can get it done within the pitch clock.

[Laika]

How does everyone feel about hiding your weakest fielder in a position which the ball won't go to? Cause that will likely happen now, if they can get it done within the pitch clock.

 

I think that's fine

 

Most players can't bounce around like that without increasing their error/fumble rate significantly and that would negate the benefits

 

And for the most part that would happen between hitters, not between pitches

[Olerud363]

If players could adapt and suddenly hit .350 because people were shifting them all the time - they would have by now. If players had the ability to bunt and hit the other way, forcing teams to stop shifting on them - they would have by now. Teams, managers, coaches and players aren't stupid. You'd think at least some percentage of players would have adapted by now...maybe that tells us something?

 

I think some guys, like maybe Jose Ramirez or someone could hit .350 if they sacrificed a lot of power...

 

What would have happened to Tony Gwynn if he came up now? First 2 seasons he hit .289 and .309 with 2 homers. Do you think he would have still developed into a .350 hitter or do you think he would changed his style to hit for more power ?

 

It's not like .350 hitters are suddenly deciding to become .270 hitters with 35 homers instead.

 

It is like the guy that could be a .350 hitter, isn't a .350 hitter when he comes up, maybe .290, .310... then the nature of the game these days makes the .300 hitter with 5 homers work on developing power instead of batting average.

[Olerud363]

C'mon Olerud LOVEs getting us to wade into esoteric discussions on ancillary matters...the rabbit hole is his specialty. lol He is good at it.

 

It's not a rabbit hole though... it's tradition. It might only happen to every team 2 or 3 times a year, but it is the most intense high leverage situation in baseball.

 

Runner on 3rd, tie game, less than 2 outs bottom of the 9th or extra innings.

 

And with the 'man on second' thing it probably happened more than ever the last two years. I don't like constraining the defensive alignment in the most high leverage situation there is....

[Olerud363]

If players could adapt and suddenly hit .350 because people were shifting them all the time - they would have by now. If players had the ability to bunt and hit the other way, forcing teams to stop shifting on them - they would have by now. Teams, managers, coaches and players aren't stupid. You'd think at least some percentage of players would have adapted by now...maybe that tells us something?

 

No player has the ability to suddenly hit .350. All players could try to go the other way more and sacrifice power for average. Gallo could maybe hit .240 instead of .210 if he sacrificed power.

 

If they ban the shift and Gallo hit's .240 what will Vlad and Juan Soto hit? Like all those missile ground balls and no shift... will Gallo be better off relatively if they ban the shift or will everybody's batting average go up 30 points and we'll be back at late 90s numbers.

[Dick_Pole]

The baseball fan in me thinks this shift banning is ridiculous. The degenerate gambler in me, however, thinks this is an opportunity to pound the overs on total runs/hits for the first two weeks of the season until the lines adjust.

[Dick_Pole]

Im not saying he is a poor hitter, Im saying he doesnt even attempt to go the other way to counter their plan on him. Which means they wont change it. If he even attempted to place it down 3rd and it goes foul, Im sure one of the IF's moves over the very next pitch.

 

Yeah, Gallo isn't a poor hitter. He's a stupid one. And a whiny little bitch.

 

Imagine an NFL coach whining that an opponent's defensive formation makes it more difficult for his QB to pass to his right, when it's known that most of his passes go that way. Would be laughed out of the game. You don't like something? Make adjustments.

[Dick_Pole]

162 back on??? Sounds like MLB is dangling it.

 

 

 

At this rate and with expanded playoffs they are going to have to hold the World Series in a neutral southern location in December.

[Brownie19]

It's not a rabbit hole though... it's tradition. It might only happen to every team 2 or 3 times a year, but it is the most intense high leverage situation in baseball.

 

Runner on 3rd, tie game, less than 2 outs bottom of the 9th or extra innings.

 

And with the 'man on second' thing it probably happened more than ever the last two years. I don't like constraining the defensive alignment in the most high leverage situation there is....

 

I think you're over estimating how often it happens. The only time I can remember the Jays doing it was when Omar Vizquel was on the team. And how many times does that configuration even 'work' or matter in the play. It has to be negligible.

[Brownie19]

Yeah, Gallo isn't a poor hitter. He's a stupid one. And a whiny little bitch.

 

Imagine an NFL coach whining that an opponent's defensive formation makes it more difficult for his QB to pass to his right, when it's known that most of his passes go that way. Would be laughed out of the game. You don't like something? Make adjustments.

 

You're over simplifying how easy it is to make adjustments at the MLB level. The use of shifts just continues to rise. If cutting down on K's, sacrificing power, bunting and slapping the ball the other way were feasible adjustments - don't you think several players and teams would have done that by now? You can't believe EVERYONE is just stupid and stubborn.

 

You can even take hitting a high fastball as an example. Pitchers adjusted to hitters teeing off on low pitches and now everyone pounds the top of the zone. It's not like batters just think "Verlander's throwing it up in the zone today boys, make the adjustments and tee off on him". This started like 5+ years ago and hitters still are trying to make adjustments because hitting a 97 MPH fastball at the letters is f***ing hard.

 

This isn't football where the defense stacks the box with 8 or 9 defenders and you simply call more pass plays, or they are blitzing a lot, so you run more draws to slow down the pass rush. C'mon Dick.

 

 

Gallo has made adjustments - leading the league in bunt singles...didn't change much.

[Abomination]

Yeah, Gallo isn't a poor hitter. He's a stupid one. And a whiny little bitch.

 

Imagine an NFL coach whining that an opponent's defensive formation makes it more difficult for his QB to pass to his right, when it's known that most of his passes go that way. Would be laughed out of the game. You don't like something? Make adjustments.

 

Imagine NFL players being forced to have 5 players on either side of the kicker during kickoff.

[Brownie19]

No player has the ability to suddenly hit .350. All players could try to go the other way more and sacrifice power for average. Gallo could maybe hit .240 instead of .210 if he sacrificed power.

 

If they ban the shift and Gallo hit's .240 what will Vlad and Juan Soto hit? Like all those missile ground balls and no shift... will Gallo be better off relatively if they ban the shift or will everybody's batting average go up 30 points and we'll be back at late 90s numbers.

 

Well I think that's what baseball wants. They want more hits, more runs, more action. I think most fans want that too. But no - not everyone will benefit from this. There are still hitters out there who's profile doesn't see shifts implemented against them. They'll stay the same (in theory).

[Terminator]

How does everyone feel about hiding your weakest fielder in a position which the ball won't go to? Cause that will likely happen now, if they can get it done within the pitch clock.

 

Good weight management for Vlad Jr. He'll be sprinting around the field all game.

[Olerud363]

You're over simplifying how easy it is to make adjustments at the MLB level. The use of shifts just continues to rise. If cutting down on K's, sacrificing power, bunting and slapping the ball the other way were feasible adjustments - don't you think several players and teams would have done that by now? You can't believe EVERYONE is just stupid and stubborn.

 

They are feasible adjustments. However they make you score less runs.

 

Good offensive teams in the late 80s could hit .280 with 150 homeruns and only score 800 runs. Teams today hit .260 with 250 homeruns and score 850 runs. Let's say an entire team decided to sacrifice power, and go opp-o. Could they hit .285 as a team? Yes. Would they score more runs then if they hit .265 with power? No.

 

What factor would ever make a team decide to score less runs? Nothing. Swinging for the fences score more runs. Going opp-o against the shift would make you score less runs. More ground ball singles, less home runs.

 

If swinging for the fences and hitting 250 homeruns scores the most runs, teams will keep doing it.

[Olerud363]

They are feasible adjustments. However they make you score less runs.

 

Good offensive teams in the late 80s could hit .280 with 150 homeruns and only score 800 runs. Teams today hit .260 with 250 homeruns and score 850 runs. Let's say an entire team decided to sacrifice power, and go opp-o. Could they hit .285 as a team? Yes. Would they score more runs then if they hit .265 with power? No.

 

What factor would ever make a team decide to score less runs? Nothing. Swinging for the fences score more runs. Going opp-o against the shift would make you score less runs. More ground ball singles, less home runs.

 

If swinging for the fences and hitting 250 homeruns scores the most runs, teams will keep doing it.

 

I think I said this a few months ago and people laughed at me, because I was always making fun of Cito and Murph, for 'pull dat ball' and 'be agressive'. And now it seems I'm the oppostite.

However the problem was the Murph/Cito teams weren't scoring the most runs.

 

My philosophy is always just to look at the teams scoring the most runs and what they are doing. These days it's these teams hitting .265ish with 250 homeruns and some walks. They may be hitting opposite field homeruns, but I think if a team tried to hit opposite field ground balls, it would increase team batting average but decrease total runs.

[jerb]

 

Bob Nightengale

@BNightengale

 

Good news: Progress and compromises on both sides are being made in today’s MLB negotiations.

Cautionary news: It’s a similar sentiment of a week ago.

We’ll see if it culminates in a new CBA deal in the next 24 hours.

[Jays24]

God bless all of you who are still staying active here during these times. It does separate the truly hardcore from the rest. See yall once there's a deal lol.

[jerb]

 

Ken Rosenthal

@Ken_Rosenthal

 

MLB expected to make written proposal shortly based on earlier conversations with union, sources tell @TheAthletic.

[Spanky99]

Please get it done, f***!

[rookiefuzz]

I have flights to Toronto for the weekend of April 8-10. I’m either going to the entire Jays/Rangers series or I’m doing the Raptors and bumming around the hockey hall of fame.

 

Please get this done tonight. Goodness.

[jerb]

[saskjayfan]

 

CBT now up to 230 running to 242. It was suggested bonus pool was up to 50 mil. We're getting a deal tonight so you better get used to the new bases. Ken Rosenthal should hopefully dropping the news soon!