2021 Collective Bargaining Agreement Discussion Thread

[John_Havok]

Someone posted that 60% of the PA's last year came from players with 1 to 3 years experience, who they only made 4% of the total salaries in baseball. I think that's a major issue and if I play off your example above, the Owners say this is how much we have in salaries - you guys figure out how to divvy it up. I think in this case, the older players want to improve that distribution, while maintaining the amount the top earners make.

 

There's also the (likely legitimate) argument that the Owners simply keep too much of the pie anyway - I'm a bit shocked that a minimum cap (or CBT) wasn't proposed. If we only have 3-4 teams willing to spend up to the CBT right now - raising it won't add more $ to the players. Adding a minimum could drastically increase the slice of the pie the players get. Perhaps they knew that would be met with great resistance and simply wasn't worth proposing?

 

Yeah that was me that posted that stuff about the percentages. i wish i could find the article that I got it from as it was really interesting.

 

I think in all reality both the Owners and union know that baseball needs a cap/floor situation, but being the last of the major sports to not have something like that they're going to fight it tooth and nail ... but, eventually the work stoppage that precedes a cap/floor in MLB will be really long.

[glory]

James Harden in his next contract is going to make $60m in the final year of his deal, and that's in a salary cap league. While MLB players wear the "free market" like a badge of honor when players didn't even break $40m AAV until last year. A salary cap tied to league revenue solves pretty much all of the PA's issues but it will never happen.

[rookiefuzz]

Someone posted that 60% of the PA's last year came from players with 1 to 3 years experience, who they only made 4% of the total salaries in baseball. I think that's a major issue and if I play off your example above, the Owners say this is how much we have in salaries - you guys figure out how to divvy it up. I think in this case, the older players want to improve that distribution, while maintaining the amount the top earners make.

 

There's also the (likely legitimate) argument that the Owners simply keep too much of the pie anyway - I'm a bit shocked that a minimum cap (or CBT) wasn't proposed. If we only have 3-4 teams willing to spend up to the CBT right now - raising it won't add more $ to the players. Adding a minimum could drastically increase the slice of the pie the players get. Perhaps they knew that would be met with great resistance and simply wasn't worth proposing?

 

Right, so the players got everything they asked for in that first paragraph. A 33% increase for 2/3 of the workforce is more than ok. If I got that I’d s*** myself.

 

Secondly, I think your next point comes down to do the owners pay a “just wage”. I think the owners pass this test. And now because the more wealthy players have piles of cash to wait this out, they’re indirectly hurting the guys they claimed to be there for initially. A floor wouldn’t be discussed because it benefits neither party.

 

You could blame the owners, but IMO they gave a fair deal to the PA.

[TwistedLogic]

I will say, if there was anything good at all in this, it was the amazing job TL did with the updates on Reddit. Great job.

 

Appreciate it!

 

He loves and promotes it all the time. Dude missed his draft in one of our leagues that he was stoked to own, but can rep 9 days of the Reddit online... I've been broken... *weeps* Where were you TL?

 

Haha sorry homie. I was gutted to find out I missed the draft but I've been down and depressed bad on baseball the last few months and lost track. Wasn't even coming on here (or reddit, haha) so I missed it. I gave BTS my number though so he can hit me up in the future for stuff like this so I don't miss it.

[John_Havok]

Right, so the players got everything they asked for in that first paragraph. A 33% increase for 2/3 of the workforce is more than ok. If I got that I’d s*** myself.

 

Secondly, I think your next point comes down to do the owners pay a “just wage”. I think the owners pass this test. And now because the more wealthy players have piles of cash to wait this out, they’re indirectly hurting the guys they claimed to be there for initially. A floor wouldn’t be discussed because it benefits neither party.

 

You could blame the owners, but IMO they gave a fair deal to the PA.

 

It's all relative. If the players are providing a product that is being sold at higher and higher dollar vallues every year, they have every right to collectively bargain for a relatively increased piece of the pie.

 

In the long run, a cap and floor is inevitable imo. Whether it's hard caps/minimums or soft... remains to be seen.

[Abomination]

It's all relative. If the players are providing a product that is being sold at higher and higher dollar vallues every year, they have every right to collectively bargain for a relatively increased piece of the pie.

 

In the long run, a cap and floor is inevitable imo. Whether it's hard caps/minimums or soft... remains to be seen.

 

They have every right to make sure they have at least the same percentage of the pie.

[Stangstag]

If you’re on the owners side over the players, I ask you this:

 

Why did the owners feel the need to start canceling games already? There’s 30 days till opening day…

 

Very scummy. f*** the owners

[Abomination]

If you’re on the owners side over the players, I ask you this:

 

Why did the owners feel the need to start canceling games already? There’s 30 days till opening day…

 

Very scummy. f*** the owners

 

Because ST can only be shortened so much for players to be built up enough to play (especially pitchers). They've clearly decided the shortest is a month (which sounds about right since pitchers usually have about 6 weeks, and only start hitting 5 innings after about 4 weeks with no setbacks).

[TheHurl]

If you’re on the owners side over the players, I ask you this:

 

Why did the owners feel the need to start canceling games already? There’s 30 days till opening day…

 

Very scummy. f*** the owners

 

Because overall owners lose money in April. If the season is 130 games, fans still come back in July because there is f*** all else to do and by playoffs all the greed is forgotten. I hope this answers your question

[saskjayfan]

Up the playoff teams to 12 or 14, the Rays cut payroll, guaranteed.

 

Yeah, but Texas, Detroit, Seattle, Angels, Twins and Royals will all spend more.

 

The Rays are a unique team. In a year in which they win a division they get almost the same revenue as a year in which they finish last. They averaged 14,552 fans in 2019 when they won 96 games and averaged 15,879 fans in 2016 when they won 68. Most teams get much better attendance and revenue when they play well. The Rays are an Enigma.

 

See you all in 2023 for the exciting Feb labour negotiations. The my god, we just lost a full season, we can't afford to miss games to start 2023 talk should be fun.

[rookiefuzz]

They have every right to make sure they have at least the same percentage of the pie.

 

This I would agree with. Keep the percentage equal at a minimum. The only issue is that by raising the CBT you risk a few owners inflating salaries across the board. This there is no CBA for and the PA would certainly love this.

 

As far as the owners waiting to negotiate until now that’s a classic negotiating move. Wait around and in the 11th hour put money on the table. I’ve seen it in my own work environment. It’s scummy but effective.

 

I don’t necessarily side with the owners, but I think the players got what they said they were after, and it turned out to be not the case.

[Stangstag]

Because overall owners lose money in April. If the season is 130 games, fans still come back in July because there is f*** all else to do and by playoffs all the greed is forgotten. I hope this answers your question

 

Yeah I agree this is it. Owners don’t give a s*** about April and I believe they had always planned to punt the first month to put massive pressure on the players union to accept a favorable deal.

[Stangstag]

Because ST can only be shortened so much for players to be built up enough to play (especially pitchers). They've clearly decided the shortest is a month (which sounds about right since pitchers usually have about 6 weeks, and only start hitting 5 innings after about 4 weeks with no setbacks).

 

I don’t think the players agreed/stated any of this. It was the owners that decided to cancel games prematurely

[Spanky99]

Appreciate it!

 

 

 

Haha sorry homie. I was gutted to find out I missed the draft but I've been down and depressed bad on baseball the last few months and lost track. Wasn't even coming on here (or reddit, haha) so I missed it. I gave BTS my number though so he can hit me up in the future for stuff like this so I don't miss it.

 

Awesome.

[rookiefuzz]

I don’t think the players agreed/stated any of this. It was the owners that decided to cancel games prematurely

 

Wasn’t covid spring training only 3 weeks or so and ended up with an insane amount of injuries? Pretty sure this was well established.

[glory]

Because overall owners lose money in April. If the season is 130 games, fans still come back in July because there is f*** all else to do and by playoffs all the greed is forgotten. I hope this answers your question

 

Yeah April is horrendous for attendance and weather, so I could see the logic from the owners. If the season starts May 1, then they'll be fine with that. Unfortunately I think this lasts a lot longer than that.

[Stangstag]

Wasn’t covid spring training only 3 weeks or so and ended up with an insane amount of injuries? Pretty sure this was well established.

 

A lot of guys were also out of shape after being off for 3 entire months. This isn’t the same situation

[saskjayfan]

Yeah April is horrendous for attendance and weather, so I could see the logic from the owners. If the season starts May 1, then they'll be fine with that. Unfortunately I think this lasts a lot longer than that.

 

The problem is owners would be fine with a May 1 start date as long as players only got pro-rated salaries for the 140 games the players actually play. The players will want to get paid for 162 games. There isn't going to be a season. Time to find a new sport to watch for the summer.

[Stangstag]

Yeah April is horrendous for attendance and weather, so I could see the logic from the owners. If the season starts May 1, then they'll be fine with that. Unfortunately I think this lasts a lot longer than that.

 

I’m hopeful the season will begin sometime in May. I think the owners always planned on losing April

[Brownie19]

Right, so the players got everything they asked for in that first paragraph. A 33% increase for 2/3 of the workforce is more than ok. If I got that I’d s*** myself.

 

Secondly, I think your next point comes down to do the owners pay a “just wage”. I think the owners pass this test. And now because the more wealthy players have piles of cash to wait this out, they’re indirectly hurting the guys they claimed to be there for initially. A floor wouldn’t be discussed because it benefits neither party.

 

You could blame the owners, but IMO they gave a fair deal to the PA.

 

Why doesn't the floor benefit the players? Because the PA is represented by the older rich players? BTW - you should post here more.

[connorp]

Why doesn't the floor benefit the players? Because the PA is represented by the older rich players? BTW - you should post here more.

 

Careful what you wish for. I think you said that about me not too long ago, there’s prob a lot of ppl upset with you now lol

[Spanky99]

Appreciate it!

 

 

 

Haha sorry homie. I was gutted to find out I missed the draft but I've been down and depressed bad on baseball the last few months and lost track. Wasn't even coming on here (or reddit, haha) so I missed it. I gave BTS my number though so he can hit me up in the future for stuff like this so I don't miss it.

 

Dude thanks, but be well man. We drafted you legit dudes, check it out, lol

[max silver]

The problem is owners would be fine with a May 1 start date as long as players only got pro-rated salaries for the 140 games the players actually play. The players will want to get paid for 162 games. There isn't going to be a season. Time to find a new sport to watch for the summer.

 

Jesus dude step away from the ledge, there's no reason to go full hysteria mode on March 1.

[Olerud363]

Jesus dude step away from the ledge, there's no reason to go full hysteria mode on March 1.

 

But the problem is there is now another issue that will be hard to resolve. Players will demand full pay for 162 game season even though only 140, owners will say no, so this go on quite some time.

[rookiefuzz]

Why doesn't the floor benefit the players? Because the PA is represented by the older rich players? BTW - you should post here more.

 

It would but marginally. The PA is much better to negotiate league wide minimums rather than implement a policy that would affect likely only 4-5 clubs. It then raises a bunch of ownership questions, gets too messy.

 

Thanks btw. I’ve been following this board since it’s inception. I remember when ECJF came over from the other board along with BTS. I come here for high IQ baseball conversations. I do more reading here than anything. When I was reading Twitter and everyone is naturally s***ing all over ownership, I had to vent out what I thought was super obvious so I came here.

 

Last thought of this rant is that I noticed most journalists side heavily with the players and I didn’t find it to be at all balanced. Then I realized they probably don’t want to end up like Barry Davis and have players like them and this is an easy way to get in their favour. If their in the favour it’s probably all lot easier to have or maintain access to players.

[Abomination]

The problem is owners would be fine with a May 1 start date as long as players only got pro-rated salaries for the 140 games the players actually play. The players will want to get paid for 162 games. There isn't going to be a season. Time to find a new sport to watch for the summer.

 

Lots of Canadians doing good things in tennis, and golf is fun ... if you bet on it.

[Brownie19]

Careful what you wish for. I think you said that about me not too long ago, there’s prob a lot of ppl upset with you now lol

 

meh - I stand by my comment. I enjoy having you post on the baseball side of things myself.

[Spanky99]

meh - I stand by my comment. I enjoy having you post on the baseball side of things myself.

 

No worries, he's a sociopath, lol

[JaysAllMighty]

Lol

 

[BigCecil]

No worries, he's a sociopath, lol

 

Weird vibes for me on these talks. Lots of guys on here probably too young to remember well 94 and what it cost the Expos. Back then I remember thinking "no way, they wont really do this..." and they did. Will they do it again? f*** I seriously hope not. I'm so excited for this season.

 

With the current media/streaming environment people have so many options for content, I'm not sure baseball recovers as well as it did 94-95. I remember the aftermath of 94 and us all turning a blind eye cheering on guys who suddenly were huge (er) and making 60 home runs common. Everyone kinda knew everyone was juiced but we didnt want to upset the happy vibe. What gets us the avg fan back in the seats and watching at home this time?