2021 Collective Bargaining Agreement Discussion Thread

[Spanky99]

Live sports have commercial breaks built in. What exactly happens during your live-sports streams?

 

*Commercial Break in Progress*

[itaos]

Is the viewing experience that much better? Games are formatted for commercial breaks, so either you’re going to change the channel for the break, or ignore the tv for that time. If you just like the quiet visuals, turn the commercials on mute lol

 

I tend to have games on in the background when I'm working. So not hearing the same Gronk commercial at an elevated volume repeatedly is nice. Missing the food commercials helps cut down on snacking too.

[Spanky99]

I tend to have games on in the background when I'm working. So not hearing the same Gronk commercial at an elevated volume repeatedly is nice. Missing the food commercials helps cut down on snacking too.

 

The latter is truth. Commercial in progress works so well.

[John_Havok]

Live sports have commercial breaks built in. What exactly happens during your live-sports streams?

 

There’s just a timed gap with stuff on the screen that says “commercial in progress.” MLB used to put short highlights on from years past to fill those gaps, but they don’t anymore.

[jerb]

 

Jeff Passan

@JeffPassan

 

Major League Baseball and the MLB Players Association plan to hold a bargaining session Thursday, sources tell ESPN. MLB is expected to make a core-economics proposal at the session, which would be the first between the sides since the league locked out the players on Dec. 2.

[Jimcanuck]

'bout frigging time

 

The delay is just tactics by the owners.

[John_Havok]

'bout frigging time

 

The delay is just tactics by the owners.

 

Yeah. If I was the negotiator for the PA, i would have been putting out a tweet or release every day stating that he/they were ready to negotiate and has reached out to the owners, waiting for their reply - while of course knowing they wouldn't.

 

Obvious tactic to try and keep public sentiment on their side, but can be quite effective.

[Grant77]

MLB is expected to offer an increase in minimum salary to 600-700k and some superficial changes to qualifying offers. They are not going to address service time concerns at all.

 

The PA is going to love that.

[John_Havok]

MLB is expected to offer an increase in minimum salary to 600-700k and some superficial changes to qualifying offers. They are not going to address service time concerns at all.

 

The PA is going to love that.

 

Yeah, that's a laughable increase. Last season the minimum was 575,000 and likely would have increased to 590,000 on it's own due to the built in way it already increased. If they even think an extra 10K is some massive gesture... they're smoking the good s***.

[AdamGreenwood]

Most of the stuff seems like small potatoes.

The two big things are:

 

Minimum/Maximum salaries:

The two sides still seem pretty far apart on these. Sounds like the owners are OK adding a pretty heft minimum, but despite this the union still wants a huge boost to the maximum. They should recognize the average team spend will get a massive boost from the minimum alone and accept a smaller maximum increase.

 

COVID

They really have to address what happens to player salaries in the event that:

1) Games are cancelled: I think currently this is pro-rated.

2) Public is not allowed in, or attendance is restricted. The union should share the revenue loss in this instance, since the owners will get far less revenue. I haven't heard this mentioned at all.

[Brownie19]

Yeah, that's a laughable increase. Last season the minimum was 575,000 and likely would have increased to 590,000 on it's own due to the built in way it already increased. If they even think an extra 10K is some massive gesture... they're smoking the good s***.

 

I mean $700,000 from $575,000 is still a 21.7% increase. I guess you could argue it's been too low forever and a 50% increase is appropriate, but if they got to the high end of that report, it's not awful. I don't think you can expect the Owners to agree to some massive increase all in one year. I could see them setting it at $700K, with yearly escalation clauses that allow it to approach the 'right' number over the next 5-10 years. $700K with a 5% annual increase gets them to $1M in 8 years.

[Grant77]

I mean $700,000 from $575,000 is still a 21.7% increase. I guess you could argue it's been too low forever and a 50% increase is appropriate, but if they got to the high end of that report, it's not awful. I don't think you can expect the Owners to agree to some massive increase all in one year. I could see them setting it at $700K, with yearly escalation clauses that allow it to approach the 'right' number over the next 5-10 years. $700K with a 5% annual increase gets them to $1M in 8 years.

 

I was a little vague with my paraphrasing, sorry. The proposal is to start at 600k next season and be at 700k by the end of this next CBA. It's not a whole lot better than status quo from what I can tell.

 

"Major League Baseball has offered to increase the minimum salary from $570,500 to $600,000, which would rise to $650,000 and $700,000 through the CBA."

[John_Havok]

I mean $700,000 from $575,000 is still a 21.7% increase. I guess you could argue it's been too low forever and a 50% increase is appropriate, but if they got to the high end of that report, it's not awful. I don't think you can expect the Owners to agree to some massive increase all in one year. I could see them setting it at $700K, with yearly escalation clauses that allow it to approach the 'right' number over the next 5-10 years. $700K with a 5% annual increase gets them to $1M in 8 years.

 

Until you take the numbers into context. PLus they generally only negotiate 5 year deals.

 

The minimum salary has gone up every year since 2003, the increases are already a part of the CBA. From 2017 - 2021, the min salary went from 535,000, to 545, to 555, to 563.5 and 570.5. so the 10k per year increase was already happening, and i can only assume the slowdown towards the end was due to COVID negotiations.

 

So, starting at 600,000 would be a decent start, but lets assume for a moment that if this wasn't being negotiated right now and there hadn't been a COVID slowdown... the min salary would already have been 575,000 for 2021 and would have expected to be 585,000 for 2022.

 

so an extra 15k over what they already would have had for 2022 is supposed to be some monumental give by the owners? And instead of increasing by 10 K per year, if we assume a 5 year deal, they increase by 20.

 

Well, they sure could spin it by saying they've doubled the yearly increase of league minimum. Sounds great, until the actual context is presented.

 

If I were the union negotiator, my counter would be 750K for players in the first year, year 2 get 1 million, and year 3 (unless they get arbitration in year 3 as a super 2) gets 2 million. Then annual increases in that minimum can be tied proportionally to revenues or a static number, whichever is higher that year. There would also be bonuses for annual awards which the owners had proposed before.

 

This counter would offer a concession that they don't change the current arbitration system and leave it as is. If the owners want less money than those minimums, then they'll be listening to a counter proposal that changes the arbitration system and gets players to arbitration sooner.

 

That would be my angle from the players union, either you're paying up known quantities with increases tied to revenues, or we are re-doing the arb system to get players there sooner. I think the owners would rather do known quantities in order to preserve the ability to manipulate service time.

Edited January 11, 2022 by John_Havok

[Brownie19]

I was a little vague with my paraphrasing, sorry. The proposal is to start at 600k next season and be at 700k by the end of this next CBA. It's not a whole lot better than status quo from what I can tell.

 

"Major League Baseball has offered to increase the minimum salary from $570,500 to $600,000, which would rise to $650,000 and $700,000 through the CBA."

 

Ah - that makes more sense and I agree - it's pretty s*****. Thanks for clarifying.

[glory]

 

Kinda wish we just had this lockout after 2016 when the Jays window was over. Vlad and Bo's years of control so far have been a 60 game 2020 season, a 2021 season where they couldn't play at home for most of the year, and now likely a shortened 2022 where I'm sure they'll be playing in an empty stadium for at least part of the season. But I'm sure there will be CBA peace in 2026.

[Ehjays]

MLB’s Core Economics Proposal Not Well-Received By MLBPA

By Anthony Franco | January 13, 2022 at 1:33pm CDT

 

JANUARY 13: Details of this afternoon’s meeting remain unclear, but both Passan and Nightengale (Twitter links) characterize the union’s response to the league’s proposal as unfavorable. It’s not yet known when the sides will meet again, which Passan suggests is dependent on how quickly the union makes a counterproposal. Passan ominously adds that an on-time start to Spring Training “is in peril.”

[Spanky99]

Pisses me off they waited so long to get back to the table, 6 f***ing weeks was way too long to get a sandbag offer.

[BTS]

These idiots are going to piss away at least some of the season.

[Deadpool]

 

Interesting, I suppose?

[jerb]

 

Jeff Passan

@JeffPassan

 

Plenty more coming in a story at ESPN but the broad strokes of MLB's proposal, per sources:

 

- Funnel additional money to all players with 2+ years service

- Award draft picks to teams that don't manipulate service of successful top prospects

- Tweaks to proposed draft lottery

 

Jeff Passan

@JeffPassan

 

This is very important to understand: Bargaining is not linear. Sometimes it's big proposals. Others it's incremental. The union will counter -- likely sooner than later.

 

This is a long process. Significant progress before March 1, when games are threatened, could be minimal.

[Cbert]

 

Jeff Passan

@JeffPassan

 

Plenty more coming in a story at ESPN but the broad strokes of MLB's proposal, per sources:

 

- Funnel additional money to all players with 2+ years service

- Award draft picks to teams that don't manipulate service of successful top prospects

- Tweaks to proposed draft lottery

 

Jeff Passan

@JeffPassan

 

This is very important to understand: Bargaining is not linear. Sometimes it's big proposals. Others it's incremental. The union will counter -- likely sooner than later.

 

This is a long process. Significant progress before March 1, when games are threatened, could be minimal.

 

I’m curious how they’d set up a system to give draft picks to teams that don’t manipulate service time. Like how do you prove a team has or hasn’t done that? It seems like everyone knows it happens when guys are kept down until the Super 2 cutoff, but you still can’t completely prove a team does that to keep a guy an extra year. Unless I’m completely misunderstanding the service time system haha

[Stangstag]

I’m curious how they’d set up a system to give draft picks to teams that don’t manipulate service time. Like how do you prove a team has or hasn’t done that? It seems like everyone knows it happens when guys are kept down until the Super 2 cutoff, but you still can’t completely prove a team does that to keep a guy an extra year. Unless I’m completely misunderstanding the service time system haha

 

Someone else mentioned above they were talking about awarding extra draft picks to teams that have a top 150 prospect finish top 5 in ROY voting??

 

So I guess the idea would be to award the teams that promote prospects, as opposed to punishing teams for NOT promoting prospects.

[The_DH]

Someone else mentioned above they were talking about awarding extra draft picks to teams that have a top 150 prospect finish top 5 in ROY voting??

 

So I guess the idea would be to award the teams that promote prospects, as opposed to punishing teams for NOT promoting prospects.

 

One other possibility is that it gets prospects into the hands of teams that know how to train the rookies as opposed to destroying their careers.

[jerb]

 

Ben Nicholson-Smith

@bnicholsonsmith

 

Also heard MLB’s offer to players today included 14 teams in playoffs

 

That's arguably players' biggest bargaining chip: owners clearly want expanded playoffs.

[jerb]

 

Ben Nicholson-Smith

@bnicholsonsmith

 

Per the AP, MLB players had asked to raise the CBT from $210 million to $245 million while owners offered to increase CBT to $214 million https://t.co/kigZBW3nqq

 

Ben Nicholson-Smith

@bnicholsonsmith

 

Also per @AP_Sports, players asked for a $775k MLB minimum salary while owners proposed tiers:

$600k minimum for players with < 1 year of service

$650k for 1+ players

$700k for 2+ players

So sounds like there's momentum for raising minimum

 

Ben Nicholson-Smith

@bnicholsonsmith

 

Via the AP, MLB would consider a draft lottery for bottom 3 teams.

 

Meanwhile, MLBPA would like to expand potential lottery to bottom 8 teams while also giving small-market teams bonus picks if they win

 

Ben Nicholson-Smith

@bnicholsonsmith

 

If MLB implements a draft lottery there's been talk of limiting the number of successive years a team would be lottery-eligible to three. Would dissuade teams from extended tanking efforts.

[Ray]

Someone else mentioned above they were talking about awarding extra draft picks to teams that have a top 150 prospect finish top 5 in ROY voting??

 

So I guess the idea would be to award the teams that promote prospects, as opposed to punishing teams for NOT promoting prospects.

 

So they are incentivizing teams with draft picks to bring up prospects based on

 

1. prospect lists, which vary outlet to outlet

2. BBWAA voting, which are also subjective

 

Mayyyybe this helps end the service time discussion for some prospects, but I highly doubt the O's are bringing up Adley Rutschman for the potential of an extra 2nd or 3rd round pick. That 7th year of cost-control over Adley is worth significantly more than the draft pick. I don't think this helps most top prospects get up faster.

 

A potential solution would be just to expand the service time cutoff date to later in the season. Maybe this doesn't help Adley since the Orioles are going to be really bad regardless, but teams like the Mariners now will be forced to think about bringing J-Rod up if they want him to produce for a significant part of their season.

[G-Snarls]

 

Interesting, I suppose?

 

Might not be the best solution but at least it shows MLB recognizes the problem

[Stangstag]

Ben Nicholson-Smith

@bnicholsonsmith

 

If MLB implements a draft lottery there's been talk of limiting the number of successive years a team would be lottery-eligible to three. Would dissuade teams from extended tanking efforts.

 

I like this idea honestly

[G-Snarls]

Did recent "full tank" teams like the Astros and Cubs finish in the bottom 5 for more than 3 years?

[John_Havok]

Might not be the best solution but at least it shows MLB recognizes the problem

 

Yeah, they know the problem because they love having it as an option. Terrible way to address it though. That's one of those things that's akin to a slap in the face.

 

"Hey guys, here's this problem that we know is a problem because we love having the ability to abuse it, so here's a completely non-sensical way to help solve the problem that we know is stupid, but we feel good because we offered to fix the problem."