2021 Collective Bargaining Agreement Discussion Thread

[Jimcanuck]

I'm old enough to remember when games were just under 2 1/2 hours in length. Jays games started at 7:30, ended at 10 am. The timing was great. Nothing was better than watching Stieb and Morris battle for 7 or 8 innings before watching the Jays bullpen blow it.

 

Now the games just f***ing drag on.

[Abomination]

I'm old enough to remember when games were just under 2 1/2 hours in length. Jays games started at 7:30, ended at 10 am. The timing was great. Nothing was better than watching Stieb and Morris battle for 7 or 8 innings before watching the Jays bullpen blow it.

 

Now the games just f***ing drag on.

 

Halladay and Buehrle starts made for some pretty short games too.

[TheHurl]

Halladay and Buehrle starts made for some pretty short games too.

 

Now MLB just has to figure out how to get 200 or so players like that starting for each team.

[Spanky99]

Way is subjective. Plus I have a young heart

 

It is sitting in a child in a third world country waiting for when I need it.

 

Hah... mint!

[Ehjays]

Britton, Giolito And Semien Discuss Lockout

By Anthony Franco | December 27, 2021 at 7:04pm CDT

 

The MLB lockout has been ongoing for nearly a month, with the accompanying transactions freeze halting essentially all major league activity. The league and the MLB Players Association aren’t expected to discuss the game’s core economics issues — the most contentious in collective bargaining — until sometime after the New Year.

 

A few prominent players — each of whom assumes an active role within the MLBPA — recently appeared on the Chris Rose Rotation (YouTube link via Jomboy Media) to discuss the current state of talks (or lack thereof). Yankees reliever Zack Britton, Rangers middle infielder Marcus Semien and White Sox starter Lucas Giolito all expressed some frustration with the lack of progress to date.

 

Not surprisingly, the players argued MLB has yet to seriously engage in negotiations. “We feel like we’ve offered some good proposals,” Britton said. “And really we didn’t get anything from their end in Dallas (in negotiations during the final few days of November).”

 

Semien and Giolito largely echoed that sentiment. The former pointed out that MLB could’ve continued to negotiate rather than locking the players out upon the expiration of the previous collective bargaining agreement. The latter plainly stated that the MLBPA was hoping to return to the table as soon as possible. “We’re here, we’re ready to negotiate,” Giolito told Rose. “We’re pretty much waiting on MLB. We’ve made our proposals, we’ve made multiple proposals right before they decided to lock us out. They said no, they weren’t interested at the time. … We’re not going to negotiate against ourselves. It takes two to tango.”

 

Of course, there’s been similar rhetoric on the part of MLB. At the time the league locked the players out, commissioner Rob Manfred told reporters that MLB “candidly … didn’t feel that sense of pressure on the other side” and added it was the league’s desire to “get back to the table as quickly as we can.” Very little has happened in the nearly four weeks since, although it’s not clear whether continued discussions on core economics would’ve done much regardless. Evan Drellich of the Athletic wrote a few weeks ago that December negotiations would have likely entailed the parties “saying the same things to each other over and over.”

 

The most pressing issues in talks — the competitive balance tax, the service time structure, salaries for early-career players, etc. — have been discussed ad nauseam in recent weeks. While speaking with Rose, each of Britton, Semien and Giolito argued that the union was more concerned than the league is with competitive balance. “We want every team to be trying to win year-in and year-out,” Britton said. “We think that’s fair to the fanbases and that’s what we want. We’re going to continue to send that message.” Giolito took a similar tack, alluding to clubs that have slashed their MLB payrolls during rebuilds. “We want thirty teams competing, trying to field the best possible players so that the game is more competitive. That’s kind of what we are stressing with our proposals: let’s make the game better for everybody, number one being the fans.”

 

Some lower-payroll clubs have of course managed to consistently remain successful in spite of budgetary limitations. Yet it’s clear that the players took issue with clubs that have largely chosen to sit out free agency while orchestrating massive organizational overhauls. Britton pointed to his former team, the Orioles, as one such club of concern, although he cautioned that the Baltimore franchise was merely one of a few examples of what the players feel to be a widespread problem.

 

Given the lack of movement to date, is it still possible for a new deal to be reached without games being interrupted? Semien expressed optimism on the union’s behalf about avoiding interruptions to Spring Training, although he unsurprisingly noted that “January is a huge month.” That said, all three players reiterated they didn’t feel any time pressure to meaningfully move off their current goals.

 

Britton and Giolito each pointed to last year’s pandemic freeze as a potential strengthening factor for the union. That wasn’t technically a work stoppage, as the game was paused due to national emergency. Yet the return-to-play discussions proved contentious, with the MLBPA eventually filing a grievance alleging that MLB didn’t negotiate in good faith to play as many games as possible last year during a season with essentially zero gate revenue.

 

“(Waiting it out) is part of the process right now,” Giolito said. “ Going through the pandemic year, kind of fighting for what we wanted as players, really coming together, communicating well, that puts us in a good position now. … Even if things are delayed a little bit, we’re here, we’re ready to negotiate. We’re going to keep pushing for getting a season going as soon as possible.“

[Abomination]

"all three players reiterated they didn’t feel any time pressure to meaningfully move off their current goals."

“(Waiting it out) is part of the process right now,”

"we’re here, we’re ready to negotiate."

 

Yep. This thing is going to be loooonnnggg.

 

So the players also want all 30 teams to be competitive, but they don't want a salary cap structure that would make that happen.

[John_Havok]

Yep. This thing is going to be loooonnnggg.

 

So the players also want all 30 teams to be competitive, but they don't want a salary cap structure that would make that happen.

 

It’s all posturing. A salary cap without 50/50 revenue split and a salary floor doesn’t make sense, they know that, the owners know that….it’s all about who blinks first

[Eat My Shatkins]

Stupid bunch of greedy f***ing ****s.

 

All of them.

[Abomination]

It’s all posturing. A salary cap without 50/50 revenue split and a salary floor doesn’t make sense, they know that, the owners know that….it’s all about who blinks first

 

I'm not so sure it is posturing. I really don't think the PA has any clue what it is doing, and I think MLB knows that. Combined with the pandemic, I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few owners who would be just as happy to sacrifice a likely unprofitable season for a better deal for themselves.

[Abomination]

They want 30 teams to be competitive by spending money though.

 

Yeah, but that's impossible unless you have a salary cap and floor, which the players are dead set against.

[Grant77]

Yeah, but that's impossible unless you have a salary cap and floor, which the players are dead set against.

 

Why can't there be a floor without a cap? Having a modest floor around 60 million or so will force teams like Baltimore and Pittsburgh to actually add free agent talent or at least accelerate their rebuilds by taking on bad contracts. Having 110 loss teams in long cycles of losing isn't good for the league. Every fan should be 100% behind the players on that one.

[Abomination]

Why can't there be a floor without a cap? Having a modest floor around 60 million or so will force teams like Baltimore and Pittsburgh to actually add free agent talent or at least accelerate their rebuilds by taking on bad contracts. Having 110 loss teams in long cycles of losing isn't good for the league. Every fan should be 100% behind the players on that one.

 

In general there can be. There has to be a cap to have most teams be competitive and going for it though, which was the discussion. Frankly, it's kind of silly for the players to even care much about the cap imo. It would affect like 4 or 5 teams at the very most (probably less). If the cost of a moderately high floor (maybe 80M?) is a soft cap in the 180M range, the players almost certainly come out way ahead.

 

Maybe players need to start getting paid an individually negotiated percentage of payroll, with the team figure set based on league revenues or something. That could inherently eliminate any need for a cap or floor. Honestly, as players learn to better market themselves, they may soon make more from promotional deals than they make in actual pay anyway.

[John_Havok]

I'm not so sure it is posturing. I really don't think the PA has any clue what it is doing, and I think MLB knows that. Combined with the pandemic, I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few owners who would be just as happy to sacrifice a likely unprofitable season for a better deal for themselves.

 

The numbers just came out that players salaries on average declined for the last few years, while team valuations continue to rise. It's the perfect ammunition to use in the negotiations.

 

The players have been bent over in the last couple of negotiations, but they aren't stupid. They know they simply cannot get everything they ask for, they're just looking for a solid W in their column this time and it won't be a cap/floor situation because that would definitely be something that requires a long work stoppage. More likely it will be some give from the owners on salaries for younger players, arbitration changes etc in exchange for perhaps a slightly lower luxury tax, or some revenue sharing tweaks.

[z3r0s]

Changes I want as a fan (too bad our wants don't mean s***!) is a decently high floor, get rid of service time manipulation.

I just want to see good games with the best players the teams have.

[John_Havok]

Why can't there be a floor without a cap? Having a modest floor around 60 million or so will force teams like Baltimore and Pittsburgh to actually add free agent talent or at least accelerate their rebuilds by taking on bad contracts. Having 110 loss teams in long cycles of losing isn't good for the league. Every fan should be 100% behind the players on that one.

 

In theory there can be, but a modest floor like 60 million would only have impacted like 4 teams last season, and only really 1 team by more than 10 million, Baltimore who was 42 million. Miami was at 58, Pittsburgh at 54 and Cleveland at 50. So impacting those 4 teams for a total of 36 million doesnt really move the needle much.

 

Any kind of salary floor that would actually be impactful to the players would probably have to be 90 million or higher. Using 90 million you have 8 teams that need to add salary and 2 more than can't give any away to stay at that line.

[AdamGreenwood]

Why can't there be a floor without a cap? Having a modest floor around 60 million or so will force teams like Baltimore and Pittsburgh to actually add free agent talent or at least accelerate their rebuilds by taking on bad contracts. Having 110 loss teams in long cycles of losing isn't good for the league. Every fan should be 100% behind the players on that one.

 

Not really. Some of these teams that are forced to spend $60-$100 million in seasons where they have no chance of competing are just going to end up folding.

If your in the middle of a deep rebuild, and the only thing you can do is pay a bunch of money for old free agents that are gonna move the needle from a .450 team to a .460 team, it isn't going to help draw the fans in.

 

Maybe if it happens, teams can get a bit creative in spending their salary minimum in taking on bad contracts, and prospects at the same time, but a salary minimum isn't going to make 30 teams magically competitive. It's going to bankrupt a bunch of teams, while not giving them the flexibility to do a proper rebuild.

[Jimcanuck]

All Baltimore would need to do is sign Adley to a long term front loaded deal, and Grayson when the time comes. Salary floor met, still the same s***** team for a few years yet.

[Grant77]

Not really. Some of these teams that are forced to spend $60-$100 million in seasons where they have no chance of competing are just going to end up folding.

If your in the middle of a deep rebuild, and the only thing you can do is pay a bunch of money for old free agents that are gonna move the needle from a .450 team to a .460 team, it isn't going to help draw the fans in.

 

Maybe if it happens, teams can get a bit creative in spending their salary minimum in taking on bad contracts, and prospects at the same time, but a salary minimum isn't going to make 30 teams magically competitive. It's going to bankrupt a bunch of teams, while not giving them the flexibility to do a proper rebuild.

 

These teams make more in revenue sharing and TV revenue than they would spend on a 60 million floor or perhaps even an 80 million floor. The notion that they would go bankrupt is ludicrous.

 

Obviously it's not going to make every team competitive. That's an impossibility. However, we would probably see the Orioles and Pirates in on a guy like Seiya Suzuki. Maybe they would add a vet who falls through the cracks and deal him at the deadline. Maybe they would take a Grichuk for a prospect. Teams just not trying at all is such a horrible look for the league. I agree with players that it has to change.

[Ehjays]

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/12/mlb-owners-net-worth.html

 

MLB Owners’ Net Worth

By Darragh McDonald | December 29, 2021 at 11:16am CDT

 

Whenever a baseball player agrees to a contract, the financials of the deal are quickly reported by various media outlets, including here at MLBTR. What gets discussed much less often, however, are the financial details of the people paying those paychecks. Here is each team’s primary owner, along with their net worth, with source links provided. (Quick caveat that financial numbers of this nature are fluid and subject to change.)

 

Angels: Arturo Moreno – $3.6 billion. (Forbes link)

Astros: Jim Crane – $1.4 billion. (Forbes link)

Athletics: John Fisher – $2.6 billion. (Forbes link)

Blue Jays: Rogers Communications, chairman Edward Rogers III – $11.5 billion. (L.A. Times link)

Braves: Liberty Media, chairman John Malone – $8 billion. (Forbes link)

Brewers: Mark Attanasio – $700MM. (L.A. Times link)

Cardinals: William DeWitt Jr. – $4 billion. (L.A. Times link)

Cubs: Ricketts family – $4.5 billion (Forbes link)

Diamondbacks: Ken Kendrick – $600 million. (L.A. Times link)

Dodgers: Guggenheim Baseball Management, controlling partner Mark Walter – $5 billion. (Forbes link)

Giants: Charles B. Johnson – $5.8 billion. (Forbes link)

Guardians: Dolan family – $4.6 billion. (L.A Times link)

Mariners: John Stanton – $1.1 billion. (L.A. Times link)

Marlins: Bruce Sherman – $500MM. (L.A. Times link)

Mets: Steve Cohen – $15.9 billion. (Forbes link)

Nationals: Lerner family – $4.9 billion. (Forbes link)

Orioles: Peter Angelos – $2 billion (L.A. Times link)

Padres: Peter Seidler – personal net worth unknown, Seidler Equity Partners estimated net worth of $3 billion. (ESPN link)

Phillies: John Middleton – $3.4 billion. (Forbes link)

Pirates: Bob Nutting – $1.1 billion. (L.A. Times link)

Rangers: Ray Davis (co-chairman with Bob R. Simpson) – $2.2 billion. (Forbes link)

Rays: Stuart Sternberg – $800MM. (L.A. Times link)

Red Sox: John Henry – $3.6 billion (Forbes link)

Reds: Robert H. Castellini – $400MM. (L.A. Times link)

Rockies: Richard L. Monfort – $700MM. (L.A. Times link)

Royals: John Sherman – $1.25 billion. (L.A. Times link)

Tigers: Ilitch Holdings – $3.8 billion (L.A. Times link)

Twins: Pohlad family – $3.8 billion (Forbes link)

White Sox: Jerry Reinsdorf – $1.7 billion (Forbes link)

Yankees: Steinbrenner family – $3.8 billion (Forbes link)

[AdamGreenwood]

These teams make more in revenue sharing and TV revenue than they would spend on a 60 million floor or perhaps even an 80 million floor. The notion that they would go bankrupt is ludicrous.

 

Obviously it's not going to make every team competitive. That's an impossibility. However, we would probably see the Orioles and Pirates in on a guy like Seiya Suzuki. Maybe they would add a vet who falls through the cracks and deal him at the deadline. Maybe they would take a Grichuk for a prospect. Teams just not trying at all is such a horrible look for the league. I agree with players that it has to change.

 

They have overdone the compensation for teams with low payrolls, and s***** Miami has taken full advantage of it, which is why there's such a problem. We can't have a system where some teams make more money by remaining uncompetitive with half-empty stadiums than by trying to compete.

[Grant77]

They have overdone the compensation for teams with low payrolls, and s***** Miami has taken full advantage of it, which is why there's such a problem. We can't have a system where some teams make more money by remaining uncompetitive with half-empty stadiums than by trying to compete.

 

I agree with all of that. I don't think that removing revenue sharing provides a path to a new CBA. I think that a salary floor with expanded playoffs addresses the major sticking point on each side.

[JFD]

Kind of hate Semien after watching this

 

[John_Havok]

Among all players to step on the field in 2019, 63.2% had less than three years of service time. They accounted for 53.6% of days of service time accumulated, but they combined for only 9.8% of player pay.

 

That's the problem the PA needs to be focused on right there.

[Brownie19]

Among all players to step on the field in 2019, 63.2% had less than three years of service time. They accounted for 53.6% of days of service time accumulated, but they combined for only 9.8% of player pay.

 

That's the problem the PA needs to be focused on right there.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the PA doesn't give a f*** about that. They're primary focus is to ensure the older players get paid and their general mindset is that young player should go through the same hardships that they did, so f***'em. Of course this mindset is ridiculous and shortsighted.

[Jimcanuck]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the PA doesn't give a f*** about that. They're primary focus is to ensure the older players get paid and their general mindset is that young player should go through the same hardships that they did, so f***'em. Of course this mindset is ridiculous and shortsighted.

 

Young players also want a CBA that takes care of older players. No one immune to the ravages of time.

[John_Havok]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the PA doesn't give a f*** about that. They're primary focus is to ensure the older players get paid and their general mindset is that young player should go through the same hardships that they did, so f***'em. Of course this mindset is ridiculous and shortsighted.

 

It's entirely possible that previous iterations of the PA felt that way. But..., the PA want's everyone to get paid what they are worth, and what they are seeing currently is that superstars get the big money, and everyone else is getting squeezed. They can't possibly try to get everything they want in one negotiation, so concentrating on smaller, more easily accomplished goals would make sense.

 

Using the numbers I provided, that's a pretty easy place to start from.

[Brownie19]

It's entirely possible that previous iterations of the PA felt that way. But..., the PA want's everyone to get paid what they are worth, and what they are seeing currently is that superstars get the big money, and everyone else is getting squeezed. They can't possibly try to get everything they want in one negotiation, so concentrating on smaller, more easily accomplished goals would make sense.

 

Using the numbers I provided, that's a pretty easy place to start from.

 

Well I guess that's good if true.

[Spanky99]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the PA doesn't give a f*** about that. They're primary focus is to ensure the older players get paid and their general mindset is that young player should go through the same hardships that they did, so f***'em. Of course this mindset is ridiculous and shortsighted.

 

Seriously, that's f***ed if true.

[Spanky99]

lol

[The_DH]

Seriously, that's f***ed if true.

 

Labour relations 101. Always look after the old guys and F the newbies. Lots of examples of this. One of the earliest was the Canadian breweries. Two wage structures, one for the old guys, one for the rookies. Management manipulated it like mad.