General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2021)

[Spanky99]

The Jays schedule is kind of completely ********, they haven't even played the orioles yet, meanwhile it seems like the Rays and Redsox are getting gimmie series back to back to back. It'll all even out in the end of course, but its super noticeable this year .

 

You just figured that out? lulz

 

Look up, it's good!

[Laika]

Bullpen hierarchy:

 

Romano

Castro

Payamps

Chatwood

Mayza

Dolis

Thornton

Carl Edwards Jr

 

God this is depressing

[Sammy225]

That’s ok Ian Kennedy is coming for cheap

[saskjayfan]

Bullpen hierarchy:

 

Romano

Castro

Payamps

Chatwood

Mayza

Dolis

Thornton

Carl Edwards Jr

 

No way Payamps is ahead of Chatwood. Chatwood looked dominant again last night. He had a handful of bad outings in a row, but hopefully it was just a blip. Merryweather and Borucki have started throwing programs. Hopefully both are back in a month.

[Laika]

Current pen:

 

Romano - good but not wholly proven and has had trouble staying healthy

Dolis - okay but not good this year, control problems, terrible viewing experience

Chatwood - unreliable and not performing recently

Castro - waiver claim, pitching fine but replacement level projections

Mayza - replacement level or close to it

Thornton - replacement level or close to it

Payamps - replacement level or worse

CEJ - replacement level or worse

Beasley - replacement level or worse

 

A complete nightmare. Probably one truly good reliever in the lot, maybe two or three if Dolis and Chatwood can right the ship.

Four of the team's five best RP are hurt. Two of them are definitely done for the year. Who knows if Merryweather and Borucki will return and stick.

 

At this rate, Pearson might be in the pen out of necessity in the second half.

[BigCecil]

Whats guys take on Alek Manoah so far? Tiny sample size but he has been a bit underwhelming. Work in progress as expected.

 

V is an issue and his secondary stuff just doesn't look filthy. Too much of the plate on too many pitches, and hanging a lot. FIP over 5 and BB 4/9. I like the movement on his FB.

 

I didn't expect him to come up and light things up but thought his stuff and command was better.

[Laika]

Whats guys take on Alek Manoah so far? Tiny sample size but he has been a bit underwhelming. Work in progress as expected.

 

V is an issue and his secondary stuff just doesn't look filthy. Too much of the plate on too many pitches, and hanging a lot. FIP over 5 and BB 4/9. I like the movement on his FB.

 

I didn't expect him to come up and light things up but thought his stuff and command was better.

 

The FB velocity seems inconsistent. 60th percentile velocity and spin on the FB. That's fine but more of a 55 grade pitch than even a 60. I wonder if his effective velocity is a bit better because of how big he is (extension, etc.)

[Daniel Labude]

Whats guys take on Alek Manoah so far? Tiny sample size but he has been a bit underwhelming. Work in progress as expected.

 

V is an issue and his secondary stuff just doesn't look filthy. Too much of the plate on too many pitches, and hanging a lot. FIP over 5 and BB 4/9. I like the movement on his FB.

 

I didn't expect him to come up and light things up but thought his stuff and command was better.

 

Did well against one of the best offensive teams in the league. Velocity has been great, not so great, and good. Only difference that has underwhelmed imo has been his slider command. He has been very short in his follow through letting it back up over the plate or wild for 2.8 games. He threw some good ones yesterday that we hadn't seen. Work in progress to regain it. Seems it was much better at AAA. Change up has always been a wildcard that he is working on, but it has improved

 

Solid first 3 games vs 2 tough teams. Needs to finish his pitches and not worry about the mound. Last 2 games the velocity probably has been up and down for the same issue as the slider. Clean up the mechanics the last 2 games and gain control of the slider and we should see more great games

[Sorrow]

It's really hard to say with Manoah right now. He's had flashes of everything so far. It'll be interesting to see how his next 3-4 starts go. I think this is the level he needs to be at to develop anymore though.

[BlueRocky]

Whats guys take on Alek Manoah so far? Tiny sample size but he has been a bit underwhelming. Work in progress as expected.

 

V is an issue and his secondary stuff just doesn't look filthy. Too much of the plate on too many pitches, and hanging a lot. FIP over 5 and BB 4/9. I like the movement on his FB.

 

I didn't expect him to come up and light things up but thought his stuff and command was better.

 

Manoah was bumping 99 MPH in spring, there’s definitely more in the tank. He was also consistently upper-90s back in Vancouver. The slider has been good.

[Ray]

For what it’s worth, Eno Sarris says Manoah’s Stuff+ for his fastball/slider are off the charts. Velo may be inconsistent, but at least he has good movement.

 

He’s been better than Pearson through 3 starts anyway. Even if Pearson probably has the higher ceiling.

[THANOS]

Manoah was bumping 99 MPH in spring, there’s definitely more in the tank. He was also consistently upper-90s back in Vancouver. The slider has been good.

 

Yeah, he even hit 100 a few times in Vancouver.

 

It definitely seems mechanical. Look at Robbie Ray, fixed his mechanics and extended his follow-through and the velocity has never been higher.

[TwistedLogic]

The difference between Manoah's numbers looking meh and looking great were a few s***** pitch calls from McGuire in his second start.

 

I think he'll be fine.

[BigCecil]

For what it’s worth, Eno Sarris says Manoah’s Stuff+ for his fastball/slider are off the charts. Velo may be inconsistent, but at least he has good movement.

 

He’s been better than Pearson through 3 starts anyway. Even if Pearson probably has the higher ceiling.

 

Thats really interesting about Sarris. Im surprised.

 

99/100 seems a long way from 94, but if can keep that movement with more V his secondary stuff will be that much more effective.

 

Its a good problem to have that he has been pretty effective without maybe his best stuff yet. I dont really think its been the pitch calling and this guy has enough mojo to shake.

[max silver]

The difference between Manoah's numbers looking meh and looking great were a few s***** pitch calls from McGuire in his second start.

 

I think he'll be fine.

 

I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the catcher for the pitcher throwing meatball pitches over the heart of the plate.

[TwistedLogic]

I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the catcher for the pitcher throwing meatball pitches over the heart of the plate.

 

Manoah didn't miss his spots on a lot of those pitches though. He threw exactly what McGuire called for, in the exact spot that McGuire was set up.

[TwistedLogic]

Like, you can say he missed meatballs over the heart of the plate, but look where McGuire is set up on the Dickerson home run:

 

 

Look where Manoah put the pitch:

 

 

Now look at where McGuire sets up on Chisholm's two-run bomb:

 

 

Look where Manoah put it:

 

 

Manoah hit the bullseye both times and McGuire didn't have to move his glove an inch on either of those pitches.

 

The catcher called for a pitch in the exact same spot that got Manoah burned on the Dickerson homer and got him burned again.

 

Then you have the Aguilar homer on a changeup that moved quite a bit and was definitely not a meatball over the heart of the plate:

 

 

Aguilar just guessed the pitch, tracked it down and squared it up.

 

So yeah, I don't think Manoah's stat line from that game was all that telling at all. I just think he needed a better job from the guy behind the plate.

Edited June 10, 2021 by TwistedLogic

[Brownie19]

But, but Buck keeps telling me that pitcher need to stop being so fine with their pitches. They need to trust their stuff and stop nibbling. Pete Walker tells the catchers to stop setting up on the edge and to come after batters.

 

[all of which is clearly Buck's narrative to allow pitchers to go deeper into the game because he hates the way the game is played today, but isn't making enough money off memmo.com to retire]

[Daniel Labude]

I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the catcher for the pitcher throwing meatball pitches over the heart of the plate.

 

Interestingly enough, the meatballs haven't been much of an issue yet. The 3 HRs were an outside slider to a LH hitter that hit Mcguire's glove, a changeup to a LH hitter outside third that hit Mcguire's glove, and a changeup 6 inches inside to a RH hitter that was just an amazing job by the hitter

[max silver]

Like, you can say he missed meatballs over the heart of the plate, but look where McGuire is set up on the Dickerson home run:

 

 

Look where Manoah put the pitch:

 

 

Now look at where McGuire sets up on Chisholm's two-run bomb:

 

 

Look where Manoah put it:

 

 

Manoah hit the bullseye both times and McGuire didn't have to move his glove an inch on either of those pitches.

 

The catcher called for a pitch in the exact same spot that got Manoah burned on the Dickerson homer and got him burned again.

 

Then you have the Aguilar homer on a Slider that moved quite a bit and was definitely not a meatball over the heart of the plate:

 

 

Aguilar just guessed the pitch, tracked it down and squared it up.

 

So yeah, I don't think Manoah's stat line from that game was all that telling at all. I just think he needed a better job from the guy behind the plate.

 

Cool breakdown here. I recall Buck (of course you need to take this with a grain of salt) mentioning that McGuire was basically setting the glove in the middle of the plate since Manoah's pitches move so much. I have a hard time believing a major league catcher is actually calling for a pitcher to throw thigh high changeups and sliders given the propensity for pitches at that location to be crushed, that's just not a location you would be shooting unless a pitcher was really struggling to throw strikes.

[THANOS]

The difference between Manoah's numbers looking meh and looking great were a few s***** pitch calls from McGuire in his second start.

 

I think he'll be fine.

 

That's definitely true. I noticed that in both the 2nd and 3rd starts. Would like to see Adams with him next time.

[Daniel Labude]

https://www.si.com/mlb/bluejays/news/manoahs-upside-dictated-by-off-speed

[G-Snarls]

That's definitely true. I noticed that in both the 2nd and 3rd starts. Would like to see Adams with him next time.

 

Just what I was thinking...

[Spanky99]

[Laika]

 

He's getting worse in the OF, though.

 

The guy has been playing baseball his entire life. Couldn't handle the infield. Getting worse in the OF as time goes on. The worst qualified OF in baseball by OAA.

 

It seems like he just has terrible defensive instincts.

 

I guess he only has like 200 pro games (all leagues/levels) in the OF though. That's not a massive amount of reps.

 

Still, he's a DH when Springer is back.

[Brownie19]

He's getting worse in the OF, though.

 

The guy has been playing baseball his entire life. Couldn't handle the infield. Getting worse in the OF as time goes on. The worst qualified OF in baseball by OAA.

 

It seems like he just has terrible defensive instincts.

 

I guess he only has like 200 pro games (all leagues/levels) in the OF though. That's not a massive amount of reps.

 

Still, he's a DH when Springer is back.

 

With Teo on the team (and full credit to him for improving and working hard) - I'm not sure anyone would ever think of saying that, but you're right. The only thing he does out there well is throw it.

[BigCecil]

He's getting worse in the OF, though.

 

The guy has been playing baseball his entire life. Couldn't handle the infield. Getting worse in the OF as time goes on. The worst qualified OF in baseball by OAA.

 

It seems like he just has terrible defensive instincts.

 

I guess he only has like 200 pro games (all leagues/levels) in the OF though. That's not a massive amount of reps.

 

Still, he's a DH when Springer is back.

 

Wasn't he a GG finalist? (face palm) Its painful to watch him helicopter off bad routes out there. My AAA 13U year olds in Baseball Alberta take better routes and I'm serious. Neg WAR 2021 so far. This guy is 28 and his only OF asset on D is his arm.

 

He is worth 3mm AAV but this has been one s***** season overall thus far for him. He is hitting better lately but I expected more on O and D.

[max silver]

Wasn't he a GG finalist? (face palm) Its painful to watch him helicopter off bad routes out there. My AAA 13U year olds in Baseball Alberta take better routes and I'm serious. Neg WAR 2021 so far. This guy is 28 and his only OF asset on D is his arm.

 

He is worth 3mm AAV but this has been one s***** season overall thus far for him. He is hitting better lately but I expected more on O and D.

 

He's rapidly becoming completely unplayable out there as he's been butchering several routine plays several times a week recently. If he could simply catch routine fly balls he could be at least an average if not better left fielder with the crazy amount of runs he's able to cut down at the plate. He's easily the worst Jays outfielder in recent memory which is too bad, he has the athleticism to make high end plays but the instincts are so bad that he routinely botches the easy plays.

[Laika]

Wasn't he a GG finalist? (face palm) Its painful to watch him helicopter off bad routes out there. My AAA 13U year olds in Baseball Alberta take better routes and I'm serious. Neg WAR 2021 so far. This guy is 28 and his only OF asset on D is his arm.

 

He is worth 3mm AAV but this has been one s***** season overall thus far for him. He is hitting better lately but I expected more on O and D.

 

My thoughts exactly, last night. The average 12 year old has better routes to balls over their head than Gurriel.

[Stangstag]

He's rapidly becoming completely unplayable out there as he's been butchering several routine plays several times a week recently. If he could simply catch routine fly balls he could be at least an average if not better left fielder with the crazy amount of runs he's able to cut down at the plate. He's easily the worst Jays outfielder in recent memory which is too bad, he has the athleticism to make high end plays but the instincts are so bad that he routinely botches the easy plays.

 

He’s just extremely bad at going back on balls hit over his head. Seems to be fine playing balls in front, and his arm is excellent. But he definitely looks to be getting worse compared to last year. Maybe he should play deeper than normal? Idk... but he definitely needs to get better.

 

I would bet some of the bad defensive numbers can be attributed to those brutal sunny games in Dunedin, and I don’t blame him for those missed plays.

 

Overall not a good season for him so far.