ALCS GDT: Houston A*tros vs Tampa Bay Rays

[Laika]

How many of those players go on to get big contracts/money, from the Rays (lol) or someone else?

 

Many, many of them go on to make many millions of dollars post-Tampa that they would never have made if the Rays did not inject their careers with relevance.

 

And the lame nerd takes can eat my ******* with a spoon.

[Orgfiller]

Is there anything the Rays do as an org that is beneficial to players and/or anything you think players on the outside would find redeeming?

 

Would anyone know who Nick Anderson, Randy Arozarena, Tyler Glasnow, Peter Fairbanks, etc. are if not for the Rays? Arozarena couldn't even buy a spot on the f***ing Cardinals. Pretty sure he's happy the Rays acquired him and are allowing him to shine on the national stage.

[Orgfiller]

Look at Randy Arozarena acknowledging the organization and the team (in Spanish, the translator was awful) for allowing him to shine.

[Laika]

I know you nerds have never seen a baseball field in your lives but starters want to go deep into games when they are rolling. Hitters want to play everyday. The Rays don’t do anything that normal athletes would find appealing. Hence why a baseball player would feel that way about Cash in BTS’s post.

 

Just to double down on this... almost everyone who likes baseball enough to post here has played baseball or other sports, often at a pretty high level. Just because a lot of people here are smarter than you does not mean that you have some type of special insight into an athlete’s mindset. And you specifically said that Tampa has not done things to benefit players careers, which is demonstrably false. What players like is not strictly relevant... players can be stupid

[Jays24]

Just to double down on this... almost everyone who likes baseball enough to post here has played baseball or other sports, often at a pretty high level. Just because a lot of people here are smarter than you does not mean that you have some type of special insight into an athlete’s mindset. And you specifically said that Tampa has not done things to benefit players careers, which is demonstrably false. What players like is not strictly relevant... players can be stupid

 

I can see his point when it comes to the high end players. But Tampa already knows how it needs to operate in order to succeed so they don't care to cater to any high end/egotsitical players. They're never in the market for one anyways.

 

If you're an average/fringe player then Tampa is the team for you. They make everyone look ike friggin Allstars.

[Spanky99]

Momentum does not exist!

 

PS. f*** you Glory!

 

lol

[TheHurl]

Just to double down on this... almost everyone who likes baseball enough to post here has played baseball or other sports, often at a pretty high level. Just because a lot of people here are smarter than you does not mean that you have some type of special insight into an athlete’s mindset. And you specifically said that Tampa has not done things to benefit players careers, which is demonstrably false. What players like is not strictly relevant... players can be stupid

 

I will triple down. I am a dumb former ballplayer. I learned about "nerd" baseball from some really smart people. I am no where near smart still but I do what I can to understand. These Rays have smart people trying to get these dumb ballplayers to understand. As more orgs do the same the more players will want to play in these situations. Not good for baseball is one I cannot argue, but players will come around much faster than broadcasters and former players ever will.

[connorp]

Is there anything the Rays do as an org that is beneficial to players and/or anything you think players on the outside would find redeeming?

 

There’s a lot of BP arms setting themselves up for a NYY contract

[connorp]

I’d wager quite a bit if the first man up was AJ Cole, the Rays would’ve let Morton continue.

I’ll get on board with what the Rays did but Jays did was awful. Trying to keep up with the cool kids thinking they’re sabr smart instead of using some common sense

 

* obviously I’m still not able to let that go lol

[glory]

Many, many of them go on to make many millions of dollars post-Tampa that they would never have made if the Rays did not inject their careers with relevance.

 

And the lame nerd takes can eat my ******* with a spoon.

 

After a brief skimming of BBRef, since Cash took over, I see Logan Forysthe as a player who came to the Rays, turned himself around, and got a moderate contract because of it. Who am I missing? I'm sure there are some RP's (didn't look), but you're overselling their ability to help players financially (at least more than the players could have done otherwise). Other than extending Kiermaier, it's not a long list. If openers, 2 times through the order SPs, platoon OF's/1B, etc, start getting paid because of the Rays, then I'll retract.

 

 

Just to double down on this... almost everyone who likes baseball enough to post here has played baseball or other sports, often at a pretty high level. Just because a lot of people here are smarter than you does not mean that you have some type of special insight into an athlete’s mindset. And you specifically said that Tampa has not done things to benefit players careers, which is demonstrably false. What players like is not strictly relevant... players can be stupid

 

Ex player (not the poster) tweets that Cash is wrong for taking an ace out after 60 pitches when throwing a shutout.

 

Posters say ex player is stupid because nUmBeRs.

 

Yes, "nerds" fits. We can laugh when a trashbag like Roark complains about being pulled too early, but a lot of SP's are going to feel that way. If you want to say it's not a big deal or the player is wrong, then fine. I think people do overreact when players (like Snell) get mad for being pulled, but that's how most high level athletes think. That's why Brad Zeigler tweeted that. They don't think "well I'm doing great, but the analytics say I shouldn't face this dude". If I even have to explain that, then not sure what we're arguing. Just because Morton bought in, doesn't mean other players won't feel a certain way about it.

 

Also, if we're posting on message boards, chances are we fizzled out somewhere between middle school and college, and I'm including myself in that. We're all nerds. You guys are just much bigger nerds for not being able to see things from an athlete's perspective, whether due to not ever touching a field in your lives or being far too deep into your obsessions with analytics. And again, I never said the current Rays don't buy in, I'm saying players in general are going to have mixed feelings on it.

 

You guys are rooting for a team that suppresses salaries, underpays talent, etc, but then will pretend to side with the MLBPA when it comes to players deserving more money. Keep that same cheap energy in all facets of baseball.

[dineke]

Is what the Rays doing any different than what the A's have been doing a decade prior? I guess they were the originators of the opener and I'm sure there's a bunch of other stuff they've innovated behind the scenes but so have the A's. I like the A's a whole lot more though because they have great uniforms and even though they play in a s***** ballpark too at least there's sunlight most of the time.

[glory]

The Moneyball A’s as far as I remember still had traditional roles. A big part of their run was the rotation (Hudson, Mulder, Zito, etc). They just used analytics to find undervalued players, specifically on offence. I wouldn’t group them in with the current Rays. I don’t think Moneyball changed the way players were used, just the way they were evaluated. The Rays are going to change baseball long term with their player usage. I guess as long as salaries account for that change then I won’t complain about it, but will have to see it to believe it.

 

Edit: Just noticed you said “decade prior”, so 2010’s. I don’t remember what the A’s were doing then so might be off.

[BTS]

You guys are rooting for a team that suppresses salaries, underpays talent, etc, but then will pretend to side with the MLBPA when it comes to players deserving more money. Keep that same cheap energy in all facets of baseball.

 

I'm actually rooting for the big swinging dick of the Dodgers to finally win their WS.

[connorp]

I'm actually rooting for the big swinging dick of Andrew Friedman to finally win his WS.

 

Fixed

[Brownie19]

 

 

I know you nerds have never seen a baseball field in your lives but starters want to go deep into games when they are rolling. Hitters want to play everyday. The Rays don’t do anything that normal athletes would find appealing. Hence why a baseball player would feel that way about Cash in BTS’s post.

 

It's interesting that people/players only complain about starting pitchers being removed. Why don't hitters complain when they get pulled for their platoon counterpart? Why don't relievers complain when they get pulled (especially before the 3 batter rule came into effect)? Isn't Zeigler pissed when he's pulled? Say it's 2019 and Zeigler strikes out the first to batters (both of whom are right handed) and there's a lefty coming up (which means statistically, he has a much lower chance of success) - doesn't Zeigler think he's pitching well and can get the next batter out?

 

I suspect the answer is simply because it's more common and players are used to it. Players seemingly understand and accept the reasoning behind it more (ie, Zeigler knows he's statistically shittier vs. left handed batters and accepts why the manager is pulling him - even if he's dealing and struck out the first 2 batters). We just aren't there yet with starting pitchers - it will come with education and time. I have to imagine there were transitions when relievers started to be a thing - and then when 1 inning relievers transitioned into the game (instead of the multi inning reliever).

 

Glory - I think we understand that players hate getting removed from the game. Their competitive nature is a huge component of their success. But there are lot of roles in baseball (and other sports) where players willingly come out of the game (even if they are playing well).

 

That said, I am surprised hitters these days aren't losing their s*** because the number of platoon players seems to have skyrocketed over the past 5-10 years without huge complaints about not being full time starters, playing every day and getting paid.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Brownie19

[Spanky99]

This guy's breakdown of the Arozarena trade is interesting...

 

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2020/10/17/21518050/arozarena-trade-martinez-liberatore

 

*I still think it was bye-bye time after he Live Instagram'd the Manager's rah-rah speech after a W in the NLDS Gm 5.

[Spanky99]

G-Snarls... you know what to do.

[Olerud363]

There is literally nothing else Tommy Pham could have done in STL to get paid. They were just intent on not playing him. So is that franchise supposed to be better than the Rays? They were literally repeating the exact same mistake with Arozarena before TB took him too.

 

How much money was Glasnow going to make just pounding his head against the wall with Ray Searage over in PIT?

 

How much money is a guy like Brosseau going to get just toiling away in AAA? Isn't it kind of cool that they find a way to pay big league salaries to guys with specific skillsets that would otherwise just be AAA journeymen? Isn't that a positive?

 

This is the stupidest thread ever. Why are guys losing money if they are performing better?? How exactly does that work?? Shortening the leash on pitchers will only be done if it results in them performing better.

 

A guy like Roy Haladay, a 250 inning 3.00 ERA guy, might turn into a 180 inning 1.50 ERA guy

A guy like Aaron Sanchez, a 200 inning 3.00 ERA guy for 1 year, and then garbage, might turn into a 150 inning 3.00 ERA guy for many years

A guy like Tanner Goark, a 200 inning 4.00 ERA guy for a few years might be a 150 inning 3.25 ERA guy for a few years.

 

Of course you may say Roy Haladay wouldn't of been better in 180 innings so let him go 250... if that's true they won't constrain that type of Pitcher. They'll use the analytics to figure out the optimal number of innings, if that ends up being 250 they'll go with that.

 

The guys will look better, even if you are just using traditional stats. Why will they be paid less??

 

If this really works the bigger problem may be further collapse of offense... a league of .230 hitters with some power and lots of ks... then they have to decide something to give the hitters a boost.

[Olerud363]

Also if there are still 25ish rosters it limits platooning....

 

If teams starters are working less they'll need more relievers... unless they go with 28 man rosters permanently I wouldn't worry about the platooning.

 

And who cares if Rowdy Tellez and some 29 year old right hander platoon??

[dineke]

the bigger problem may be further collapse of offense... a league of .230 hitters with some power and lots of ks... then they have to decide something to give the hitters a boost.

 

This is already the biggest problem about baseball for me. It's like everyone has waves of relievers throwing 98 and a 10k/per 9ip these days. And even when a hitter puts the ball in play babip is probably at an all time low because of shifts and launch angle.