Spring/Summer Training, 2020

[The Iceman]

Hernandez is potential. Puig is a guarantee.

 

For sure Jays should sign him. He is strong defensively and would fetch a prospect if we chose to flip him.

If we are talking losing Fischer or Alford over this transaction it is a no brainer. This would also allow us to send Tellez to Buffalo were he can sink or swim as a prospect.

 

Teoscar to DH

Edited March 6, 2020 by The Iceman

[max silver]

Hernandez is potential. Puig is a guarantee.

 

For sure Jays should sign him. He is strong defensively and would fetch a prospect if we chose to flip him.

 

What does Puig even guarantee though? In 2019 The guy put up WAR of 1.2 with a WRC+ of 101. He simply isn't the same guy that he was in 2013/2014 when he created such a sensation.

[Spanky__99]

What does Puig even guarantee though? In 2019 The guy put up WAR of 1.2 with a WRC+ of 101. He simply isn't the same guy that he was in 2013/2014 when he created such a sensation.

 

You punt Fisher to the curb, and use Teo as your CF/OF/1B/DH utility bat, IF Puig signs here.

[Deadpool]

Teoscar put up a 142 WRC+ in the second half last year, there is massive potential in his bat. Whether or not he can sustain anything close to that over an entire season remains to be seen of course.

 

He also put up REALLY good defensive numbers in LF last year (though it wasn't a particularly large sample size. He did pass the eye test in LF last year...)

[Laika]

I just don't really see how Puig is a great fit for this roster. If he could play center field he would be a lot more interesting. Atkins is on record that he was amenable to bringing in outfield upgrades, but only if they were notable improvements on what was already on the roster. They have already passed on better options such as Marte and possibly Akiyama depending on he adjusts to MLB pitching, so bringing in Puig seems super unlikely at this stage. Gurriel likely outperforms Puig by several wins, only issue likely preventing this from happening would be health issues for Gurriel. Grichuk and Puig are likely to put up similar value by the end of the year, but Grichuk can play center field and is getting paid $10+ million already, so the Jays are sort of forced a little bit to play him regularly to attempt to salvage some value from that deal. I view Teoscar as not having hit his ceiling yet, and the potential he has shown with the bat leads me to believe this guy should play every day until you fully establish what he is capable of going forward.

 

This is still a development year at this stage, and bringing in a guy who is incredibly likely to be a marginal upgrade doesn't make a lot of sense when looking at things from more of a long term perspective. Yasiel Puig looks to be going backwards with the bat, and optimistic scenarios have him putting up a 2 win season, hence likely a marginal upgrade over guys already projected to start. I see no reason to completely write off talented young players before exhausting all options for major league playing time, and that is what happens to either Fisher or Alford for certain if you sign Puig. Sure it's possible that Alford and Fisher both end up flaming out completely, but they aren't there yet, and writing them off at this stage accomplishes nothing.

 

If we are to believe reports up to this point the Jays have likely exhausted most if not of their available payroll to start the season, there might not be money left to bring in Puig anyway. Perhaps jettisoning Drury off of the roster could save a little money, but that wouldn't free up enough cash to sign Puig in all likelihood. And we haven't gotten to the character related issues yet, this is likely the biggest reason aside from money that the guy hasn't found a job yet.

 

too much goal post moving and fact manipulation in this post to take it seriously

 

Puig PROJECTS to be about average and he has demonstrated upside above that. Fisher, Teoscar, and Alford project to be below average, bad, and horrendous and none of them have any real demonstrated upside. It's okay to say that Teoscar and Fisher have potential (I agree they do and they would still fit on the roster and get the opportunity to play). There is no reasonable argument for Alford anymore.

 

Puig's "issues" seem so unfairly overblown. He got in trouble for speeding once, missed a team meeting maybe once, and frustrated his managers a few times by running through stop signs, etc. He's not toxic and he has been unfairly maligned. He's also a media darling and an advertising dream who will literally throw hands for his teammates and he busts ass on the field.

[Spanky__99]

Tejada hit a 2 run dinger.

[max silver]

too much goal post moving and fact manipulation in this post to take it seriously

 

Puig PROJECTS to be about average and he has demonstrated upside above that. Fisher, Teoscar, and Alford project to be below average, bad, and horrendous and none of them have any real demonstrated upside. It's okay to say that Teoscar and Fisher have potential (I agree they do and they would still fit on the roster and get the opportunity to play). There is no reasonable argument for Alford anymore.

 

Puig's "issues" seem so unfairly overblown. He got in trouble for speeding once, missed a team meeting maybe once, and frustrated his managers a few times by running through stop signs, etc. He's not toxic and he has been unfairly maligned. He's also a media darling and an advertising dream who will literally throw hands for his teammates and he busts ass on the field.

 

Puig is far from some type of angel. He has repeatedly clashed with his teammates and coaches even refusing to accept coaching input, and is always a moment away from snapping on the field and starting a fight with the opposition. Baseball fights are generally nothing events, but from time to time guys actually end up injured after these fights occur. I'd be livid if one of the Jays young players were to end up hurt because management decided to sign a powder keg personality like Puig. Given the emphasis placed on culture by the Jays front office this is exactly the kind of guy they would stay away from.

 

There is very little upside to signing a guy like this. You likely exhaust the rest of your available payroll and take away money that could be used for sensible mid-season improvements if the opportunity arises, take playing time away from young players that are out of options, bring a potentially disruptive presence into your clubhouse, and all of this is for a guy that is potentially not even an upgrade on what you already have. Projection systems are far from infallible, there is a possibility Puig is declining based on his three year output, and ends up even worse than 2019. This is a team that isn't likely to contend, and still in their rebuild state. How does bringing in a guy like Puig make sense for the Blue Jays? Let's say he is a small upgrade, adding a single win to the roster despite all the potential drawbacks seems pointless if you believe this team is like to win 75 wins, and even if you think they are closer to 80+ wins I don't see a huge benefit either.

[Boxcar]

I'm not so sure Puig is worth the headaches the on the field shenanigans are inevitably going to lead to. He projects very similarly to Teoscar at this point, and bringing Puig aboard very likely leads to no room for Fisher or Alford on the roster as Puig leads to 4 MLB outfielders on the roster. I'd rather Fisher and/or Alford get a decent shot to prove themselves before most likely losing them to waivers. This team isn't expected to compete, so I think it makes more sense to see what the current crop of guys is capable of.

 

Puig and Teoscar are not even close, unsure what you're looking at. Puig is projected to be more than a full win better in 50 fewer games.

 

Alford sucks. This team could easily be in the wildcard mix, why waste a 40 man spot on a s***** player like Alford when you could have Puig who still has the potential to throw up a 4 win season one of these days. Given the issues in OF and that our primary DH is slated to be Tellez, Puig fits perfectly on this roster.

 

I'd rather try to win than hope Alford can develop into a non-waste of space. I'm ok with giving Fisher some rope as a bench player because his sample is much smaller but Alford has been failing for literally years.

[Ray]

I'd be more concerned with the fact that no teams seems to be interested in Puig halfway through Spring Training even though he could likely be had for a pretty cheap deal and upgrade most teams OF. There's been zero reports tying Puig to any teams by Rosenthal, Heyman, etc. Teams have access to more information than us, so it could be that he's battling some sort of injury, or teams don't think he's worth the headache he might create in the clubhouse. Maybe Puig is waiting for a big OF getting injured on a contender and wants an extravagant deal. It's odd, because it's not like he had the issues that other FA's have had in recent years either when they signed late. He's young, he doesn't have a QO attached, he definitely worth a major league spot, and he shouldn't cost too much.

 

Either way, I'd be on board with trading Alford and giving Puig a 1 year deal considering Puig in that 1 year will likely outproduce what Alford will during his entire career.

[John_Havok]

I'd be more concerned with the fact that no teams seems to be interested in Puig halfway through Spring Training even though he could likely be had for a pretty cheap deal and upgrade most teams OF. There's been zero reports tying Puig to any teams by Rosenthal, Heyman, etc. Teams have access to more information than us, so it could be that he's battling some sort of injury, or teams don't think he's worth the headache he might create in the clubhouse. Maybe Puig is waiting for a big OF getting injured on a contender and wants an extravagant deal. It's odd, because it's not like he had the issues that other FA's have had in recent years either when they signed late. He's young, he doesn't have a QO attached, he definitely worth a major league spot, and he shouldn't cost too much.

 

Either way, I'd be on board with trading Alford and giving Puig a 1 year deal considering Puig in that 1 year will likely outproduce what Alford will during his entire career.

 

Alford isnt a trade candidate. Hes a DFA candidate that you feel lucky if theres anyone out there that wants to give you anything for him.

[Laika]

Puig is far from some type of angel.

 

Never said he was. Man players in baseball are far from angels. Machado is a fart, Donaldson is a douche, Bauer is an arrogant worm, all the Astros are cheaters, Acuna is lazy, Hosmer is a retard, Stroman is a diva, and so on.

 

There is very little upside to signing a guy like this. You likely exhaust the rest of your available payroll and take away money that could be used for sensible mid-season improvements if the opportunity arises, take playing time away from young players that are out of options, bring a potentially disruptive presence into your clubhouse, and all of this is for a guy that is potentially not even an upgrade on what you already have. Projection systems are far from infallible, there is a possibility Puig is declining based on his three year output, and ends up even worse than 2019. This is a team that isn't likely to contend, and still in their rebuild state. How does bringing in a guy like Puig make sense for the Blue Jays? Let's say he is a small upgrade, adding a single win to the roster despite all the potential drawbacks seems pointless if you believe this team is like to win 75 wins, and even if you think they are closer to 80+ wins I don't see a huge benefit either.

 

Puig is going to cost someone like $5M. If Toronto doesn't have payroll space for that, or only has that much room, there are bigger problems.

 

The upside with Puig is that he has a 4 win season and helps the team sneak into a wild card spot. It's a high variance roster as it is and Puig would supplement the good side of the variance. The other upside is that Puig has a strong year and is an asset at the trade deadline. The third other upside is that Puig is productive and fun to watch and the spectator sport that baseball is has more spectators in Toronto as a result.

 

Honestly, I cannot even wrap my stupid f***ing head around how somebody can logically end up at the position that the Toronto Blue Jays should not sign Yasiel Puig on a cheap one year deal and should instead just roll with Anthony f***ing Alford. There is not a worse expression of modern fandom than worrying about the team saving a few million bucks, or worrying about the team clutching onto a useless player out of options who projects to f***ing suck.

 

Anyway, Atkins and Shapiro have already more or less signalled that they aren't signing a guy like Puig so it's a moot point. I disagree with them and I look forward to comparing Puig's 2020 production to the Blue Jays OF/DH production.

[John_Havok]

Never said he was. Man players in baseball are far from angels. Machado is a fart, Donaldson is a douche, Bauer is an arrogant worm, all the Astros are cheaters, Acuna is lazy, Hosmer is a retard, Stroman is a diva, and so on.

 

 

 

Puig is going to cost someone like $5M. If Toronto doesn't have payroll space for that, or only has that much room, there are bigger problems.

 

The upside with Puig is that he has a 4 win season and helps the team sneak into a wild card spot. It's a high variance roster as it is and Puig would supplement the good side of the variance. The other upside is that Puig has a strong year and is an asset at the trade deadline. The third other upside is that Puig is productive and fun to watch and the spectator sport that baseball is has more spectators in Toronto as a result.

 

Honestly, I cannot even wrap my stupid f***ing head around how somebody can logically end up at the position that the Toronto Blue Jays should not sign Yasiel Puig on a cheap one year deal and should instead just roll with Anthony f***ing Alford. There is not a worse expression of modern fandom than worrying about the team saving a few million bucks, or worrying about the team clutching onto a useless player out of options who projects to f***ing suck.

 

Anyway, Atkins and Shapiro have already more or less signalled that they aren't signing a guy like Puig so it's a moot point.

 

Fired up today, 100% on point. According to the LA times Puig has already turned down a 1 year/10 million dollar offer from a national league team. His camp is obviously not yet willing to sign that kind of deal.

[Laika]

Fired up today, 100% on point. According to the LA times Puig has already turned down a 1 year/10 million dollar offer from a national league team. His camp is obviously not yet willing to sign that kind of deal.

 

I'm assuming that offer was much earlier in the offseason. I bet at this point he'd sign for anything as long as it's a starting job on an MLB roster.

 

Pillar has kind of set the bar by signing for $4.25M after being projected for $9M+ in arb3. Puig made like $9.8M last year.

[Spanky__99]

Fired up today, 100% on point. According to the LA times Puig has already turned down a 1 year/10 million dollar offer from a national league team. His camp is obviously not yet willing to sign that kind of deal.

 

2/16 with a team option please.

[Spanky__99]

I'm assuming that offer was much earlier in the offseason. I bet at this point he'd sign for anything as long as it's a starting job on an MLB roster.

 

@5 for sure, he'd be a great guy to lose win money on. I don't think you could lose to be fair, lol.

[John_Havok]

I'm assuming that offer was much earlier in the offseason. I bet at this point he'd sign for anything as long as it's a starting job on an MLB roster.

 

Pillar has kind of set the bar by signing for $4.25M after being projected for $9M+ in arb3. Puig made like $9.8M last year.

 

Probably. And it will be a team like the Rays who he will kill it for, and be flipped at the deadline for someone who turns into an allstar for the next 7 years.

[Spanky__99]

Probably. And it will be a team like the Rays who he will kill it for, and be flipped at the deadline for someone who turns into an allstar for the next 7 years.

 

They can't, how? lol

[glory]

Teoscar put up a 142 WRC+ in the second half last year, there is massive potential in his bat. Whether or not he can sustain anything close to that over an entire season remains to be seen of course.

 

He also had Aaron Judge levels of exit velocity during that span if I recall. I can understand Shatkins giving him more rope. It's a question of whether the team should value Fisher and Alford as much as they seem to rather than look for a replacement and push Fisher to 4th OF.

[Spanky__99]

He also had Aaron Judge levels of exit velocity during that span if I recall. I can understand Shatkins giving him more rope. It's a question of whether the team should value Fisher and Alford as much as they seem to rather than look for a replacement and push Fisher to 4th OF.

 

Once again, agreed. Puig would be dreamy...

[max silver]

Never said he was. Man players in baseball are far from angels. Machado is a fart, Donaldson is a douche, Bauer is an arrogant worm, all the Astros are cheaters, Acuna is lazy, Hosmer is a retard, Stroman is a diva, and so on.

 

 

 

Puig is going to cost someone like $5M. If Toronto doesn't have payroll space for that, or only has that much room, there are bigger problems.

 

The upside with Puig is that he has a 4 win season and helps the team sneak into a wild card spot. It's a high variance roster as it is and Puig would supplement the good side of the variance. The other upside is that Puig has a strong year and is an asset at the trade deadline. The third other upside is that Puig is productive and fun to watch and the spectator sport that baseball is has more spectators in Toronto as a result.

 

Honestly, I cannot even wrap my stupid f***ing head around how somebody can logically end up at the position that the Toronto Blue Jays should not sign Yasiel Puig on a cheap one year deal and should instead just roll with Anthony f***ing Alford. There is not a worse expression of modern fandom than worrying about the team saving a few million bucks, or worrying about the team clutching onto a useless player out of options who projects to f***ing suck.

 

Anyway, Atkins and Shapiro have already more or less signalled that they aren't signing a guy like Puig so it's a moot point. I disagree with them and I look forward to comparing Puig's 2020 production to the Blue Jays OF/DH production.

 

Most of the bad boy types you mention are far superior players compared to Puig at this point of their respective careers. Star level production would certainly incline a team to deal with a guys ******** compared to someone who projects to be average. I just don't see that Puig has 4 win upside at this point of his career given how long it's been since he was able to offer that level of production.

 

The team I think Puig may be the best fit for is the Indians. They have a terrible looking outfield, and should still be competitive in the AL Central. They should already be familiar with what he offers both good and bad, and would already be familiar with how he fit with their particular squad. Indians are notoriously cheap though, especially when it comes to making outfield additions as that's been an ongoing area of concern for them for a lot of years.

[saskjayfan]

Most of the bad boy types you mention are far superior players compared to Puig at this point of their respective careers. Star level production would certainly incline a team to deal with a guys ******** compared to someone who projects to be average. I just don't see that Puig has 4 win upside at this point of his career given how long it's been since he was able to offer that level of production.

 

The team I think Puig may be the best fit for is the Indians. They have a terrible looking outfield, and should still be competitive in the AL Central. They should already be familiar with what he offers both good and bad, and would already be familiar with how he fit with their particular squad. Indians are notoriously cheap though, especially when it comes to making outfield additions as that's been an ongoing area of concern for them for a lot of years.

 

The indians had him. The indians need him and yet they made no attempt to get him back. Those are red flags. Tito is a guy most players should be able to play for.

Edited March 7, 2020 by saskjayfan

[Spanky__99]

Televised on SN...

 

[Angrioter]

Teoscar is a s*** player. I know him very well.

Freeswinger, poor D, and below avg runner. He's just a guy with some pop.

 

 

Sign Puig and DFA Alford

[Ryu In My House]

Hernandez is potential. Puig is a guarantee.

 

For sure Jays should sign him. He is strong defensively and would fetch a prospect if we chose to flip him.

If we are talking losing Fischer or Alford over this transaction it is a no brainer. This would also allow us to send Tellez to Buffalo were he can sink or swim as a prospect.

 

Teoscar to DH

 

100% - I agree with all of this. You're right, Puig should be good for > 2 WAR, and even if only signed for a 1-year should be able to net one or two decent prospects at the deadline. And by then, hopefully one of the OF prospects has emerged a bit.

[polar bear]

Televised on SN...

 

 

Count me in

[Boxcar]

I just don't really see how Puig is a great fit for this roster. If he could play center field he would be a lot more interesting. Atkins is on record that he was amenable to bringing in outfield upgrades, but only if they were notable improvements on what was already on the roster. They have already passed on better options such as Marte and possibly Akiyama depending on he adjusts to MLB pitching, so bringing in Puig seems super unlikely at this stage. Gurriel likely outperforms Puig by several wins, only issue likely preventing this from happening would be health issues for Gurriel. Grichuk and Puig are likely to put up similar value by the end of the year, but Grichuk can play center field and is getting paid $10+ million already, so the Jays are sort of forced a little bit to play him regularly to attempt to salvage some value from that deal. I view Teoscar as not having hit his ceiling yet, and the potential he has shown with the bat leads me to believe this guy should play every day until you fully establish what he is capable of going forward.

 

This is still a development year at this stage, and bringing in a guy who is incredibly likely to be a marginal upgrade doesn't make a lot of sense when looking at things from more of a long term perspective. Yasiel Puig looks to be going backwards with the bat, and optimistic scenarios have him putting up a 2 win season, hence likely a marginal upgrade over guys already projected to start. I see no reason to completely write off talented young players before exhausting all options for major league playing time, and that is what happens to either Fisher or Alford for certain if you sign Puig. Sure it's possible that Alford and Fisher both end up flaming out completely, but they aren't there yet, and writing them off at this stage accomplishes nothing.

 

If we are to believe reports up to this point the Jays have likely exhausted most if not of their available payroll to start the season, there might not be money left to bring in Puig anyway. Perhaps jettisoning Drury off of the roster could save a little money, but that wouldn't free up enough cash to sign Puig in all likelihood. And we haven't gotten to the character related issues yet, this is likely the biggest reason aside from money that the guy hasn't found a job yet.

 

Oh it's a developmental year. No point in trying to win, then.

 

Puig is almost a 2 win upgrade on Hernandez lol, not sure how that's marginal.

 

There's a lot wrong in here but I think that will suffice.

[gruber92]

WTF does Fisher do well again?

[Krylian]

WTF does Fisher do well again?

 

Run and hit bombs in non game situations

[gruber92]

That dropped ball from Fisher seems to have derailed Thorton.

[gruber92]

Nice to see Thorton work out of that bases loaded jam. Was Fisher given an error?