General 2020 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[Krylian]

I know it's only 10 games, SSS, but was definitely expecting an improvement that just isn't happening yet and it's frustrating.

 

You'll get an improvement when you stop expecting one.

[bones10]

Vlad can show up any day now, please.

[Boxcar]

Loads of talent, perhaps lacking player development to bring them to the next level?

 

Obviously we need to somehow get Joe Panik even more at bats.

[Boxcar]

Again, I think it's a fair question to ask. Teams are going to have failures. Not every prospect pans out, and not every intriguing guy with tools is fixable, but the Jays under Shatkins haven't had much success in developing/acquiring impact MLB bats. The Jays have one of the best hitting prospects in many years and he's drilling ground balls at a 75% clip. If 20-21 year old Vlad was a Yankee, would his GB rate be this problematic? Possibly, but my guess is no. Ultimately talent is required, and the Jays have talent, so a year or two from now the outlook is likely going to be dramatically different, but some orgs are better than others at player development. The Jays under the current regime have a lot of catching up to do in this area.

 

So just Vlad, then. Gurriel looks like he's going to turn out fine, Bichette is probably fine, Hernandez has improved massively, Biggio came out of nowhere to be a useful player, even Derek Fisher is showing some decent signs.

 

So I'm not really sure where this sudden complaint about player development is coming from. Maybe it's just ten games and people should cease s***ing themselves?

[King]

So just Vlad, then. Gurriel looks like he's going to turn out fine, Bichette is probably fine, Hernandez has improved massively, Biggio came out of nowhere to be a useful player, even Derek Fisher is showing some decent signs.

 

So I'm not really sure where this sudden complaint about player development is coming from. Maybe it's just ten games and people should cease s***ing themselves?

 

Danny Jansen was a 16th round pick out of buttf*** no where in Wisconsin who signed for like 100k. Basically a non prospect. Huge win there for player development.

[Deadpool]

We've been in almost every game, and we've faced generally good pitching. I'm frustrated as f***, but nothing (other than the fact that Joe Panik should stop getting f***ing ABs) can be reasonably inferred from a sample size this small.

 

If we suck balls against the truly awful Red Sox over the next few games, then we have more to worry about.

[Ex Player]

We did play road games against the world champions, the NL East champions, and our old nemesis Tampa. So maybe 4-6 isn't all that bad.

 

We are also currently tied for 2nd place in AL East

[Olerud363]

So just Vlad, then. Gurriel looks like he's going to turn out fine, Bichette is probably fine, Hernandez has improved massively, Biggio came out of nowhere to be a useful player, even Derek Fisher is showing some decent signs.

 

So I'm not really sure where this sudden complaint about player development is coming from. Maybe it's just ten games and people should cease s***ing themselves?

 

The "sudden" complaint is coming because they were almost last in on base percentage last year and last this year.

 

Teams that are doing good at development like the White Sox and Yankees are near the top in on base percentage.

 

It's only 10 games but Bo, Vlad and Bichette have on base percentages way below .300... the guys playing good Jansen and Hernandez and Gurriel are barely above .300.

 

Right now White Sox are an example of what good developed looks like. Young players are slugging and team on base percentage is .340.

 

It could all change quick.

[Ex Player]

As far as our s***** hitting is concerned we're not the only ones. 22 out of 30 MLB teams are hitting below .250

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team

[Laika]

The "sudden" complaint is coming because they were almost last in on base percentage last year and last this year.

 

Teams that are doing good at development like the White Sox and Yankees are near the top in on base percentage.

 

It's only 10 games but Bo, Vlad and Bichette have on base percentages way below .300... the guys playing good Jansen and Hernandez and Gurriel are barely above .300.

 

Right now White Sox are an example of what good developed looks like. Young players are slugging and team on base percentage is .340.

 

It could all change quick.

 

Robert and Eloy aside, the White Sox are just way further along. It's a lineup of veterans and young veterans with a couple of kids playing well. The Blue Jays are a lineup of babies with a couple of crummy young veterans. Moncada alone has more career PA than Bichette, Vlad, and Biggio combined. EE alone might have more career PA than the entire Blue Jays roster.

 

Player (career PA)

 

Blue Jays:

 

Vlad 556

Biggio 474

Jansen 507

Bichette 245

Gurriel 641

Tellez 511

Teoscar 1234

Grichuk 2498

Shaw 2251

 

Sox:

 

Robert 57

Eloy 549

Engel 1071

Moncada 1516

Garcia 1597

Anderson 2192

Grandal 3341

Abreu 3965

Edwin 7978

[Boxcar]

Danny Jansen was a 16th round pick out of buttf*** no where in Wisconsin who signed for like 100k. Basically a non prospect. Huge win there for player development.

 

Don't bring up positives please. Then we'd need to talk about Biggio, Bichette, Hernandez, and then our hyped minor league guys landing on many top 100s like Groshans (who was a "reach") Kirk (who should be on every top 50 list), Moreno (who looks very promising). Like you said, at the very minimum Danny Jansen is going to be basically David Ross, though maybe slightly worse offensively.

 

E: sorry to clarify, Bichette was what, a third rounder? Biggio was a nothing pick, and we got Hernandez for basically nothing.

[Olerud363]

As far as our s***** hitting is concerned we're not the only ones. 22 out of 30 MLB teams are hitting below .250

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team

 

I guess batting average is still trending down. Those numbers look horrible.

 

I guess our development isn't that bad... we are only second last in MLB in on base percentage.

 

our on base percentage is .260ish... but that is OK. Pirate's are worse... Plus at least we are hitting above .200.

 

Top 3 development organizations

 

1. NY Yankees - .340 team on base percentage, several prospects hit very well in MLB, surprises everywhere.

2. Chicago White Sox - .340 team on base percentage, team of young sluggers hitting towering fly balls.

3. Toronto Blue Jays - .260 team on base percentage, Historic bust (so far) with Vladdy, but Danny Jansen and Biggio came from no where and have .225 average in the MLB.

[glory]

So just Vlad, then. Gurriel looks like he's going to turn out fine, Bichette is probably fine, Hernandez has improved massively, Biggio came out of nowhere to be a useful player, even Derek Fisher is showing some decent signs.

 

So I'm not really sure where this sudden complaint about player development is coming from. Maybe it's just ten games and people should cease s***ing themselves?

 

Which is why I said MLB development, not the minors. This goes back to the Yankees/Urshela being brought up. Certain orgs are better at developing talent at the big league level than others. Certain orgs are better at identifying talent period. Certain orgs are better at identifying managers/coaches (yes, that's another dig at Buntoyo). The Jays right now have not seen the results at the big league level, at least on the hitting side. Again, as I said previously, a year or two from now this might be a different discussion. Vlad is a glaring issue because other than his weight you couldn't mold a better offensive prospect with clay. If two of the 7 "years" the Jays have of him are going to be wasted on him hitting hard GB's like past prime Kendrys Morales, then that's definitely a big deal. It doesn't mean the entire development side is bad, but it's not like the Yankees where we can point to near dozens of examples of success.

 

Again, I will reiterate, I am just as high on the young players on this team (Vlad/Bo/Biggio/Gurriel/Jansen) as others, and probably higher on Teoscar than most, so I'm not writing them off. My point is simply we are not at a point where we can look at this front office and not question their ability to identify/correct talent. So yeah, harping on Urshela is pointless, but the difference in orgs (Yanks/Jays) from a development standpoint is very real and large. For now.

[Boxcar]

Which is why I said MLB development, not the minors. This goes back to the Yankees/Urshela being brought up. Certain orgs are better at developing talent at the big league level than others. Certain orgs are better at identifying talent period. Certain orgs are better at identifying managers/coaches (yes, that's another dig at Buntoyo). The Jays right now have not seen the results at the big league level, at least on the hitting side. Again, as I said previously, a year or two from now this might be a different discussion. Vlad is a glaring issue because other than his weight you couldn't mold a better offensive prospect with clay. If two of the 7 "years" the Jays have of him are going to be wasted on him hitting hard GB's like past prime Kendrys Morales, then that's definitely a big deal. It doesn't mean the entire development side is bad, but it's not like the Yankees where we can point to near dozens of examples of success.

 

Again, I will reiterate, I am just as high on the young players on this team (Vlad/Bo/Biggio/Gurriel/Jansen) as others, and probably higher on Teoscar than most, so I'm not writing them off. My point is simply we are not at a point where we can look at this front office and not question their ability to identify/correct talent. So yeah, harping on Urshela is pointless, but the difference in orgs (Yanks/Jays) from a development standpoint is very real and large. For now.

 

We had Bautista, who went through god knows how many teams before being a mainstay here. We had Encarnacion, who was claimed and then DFA'd by the A's, who developed guys like Olson, Chapman and turned Marcus Semien's career around (Marcus Semien from the White Sox, who sucked while he played with them, since they are also being praised here).

 

If I were Atkins, I'd be cleaning house right now. Pete Walker sucks, Guillermo Martinez seems to suck, Windmill Rivera sucks (at waving in runners, maybe he can be bench coach) and Montoyo sucks massive dongs. The only coach I actively like is Tim Leiper because he actually stands up for the players, and it always looks like he's ready to throw down with someone.

 

My remedy:

Hire Gibby

Hire Ray Searage

Make Dante the third base coach

Hire Barry Bonds as hitting coach (who Christian Yelich credits with turning into a superstar at the plate)

 

Maybe it won't make a difference, I don't know, but the coaches on this team all seem stupid and they aren't even funny in the post game stuff.

 

Like, to improve his hitting, Danny Jansen went to f***ing Ryan Borucki's dad. That should be all you need to know.

[Ex Player]

I say we hire Craig Biggio as manager. He wont take s*** from anyone.

And if Vladdie shows up 1 pound overweight next year he wont hesitate to give him the hairdryer treatment

[Orgfiller]

We had Bautista, who went through god knows how many teams before being a mainstay here. We had Encarnacion, who was claimed and then DFA'd by the A's, who developed guys like Olson, Chapman and turned Marcus Semien's career around (Marcus Semien from the White Sox, who sucked while he played with them, since they are also being praised here).

 

If I were Atkins, I'd be cleaning house right now. Pete Walker sucks, Guillermo Martinez seems to suck, Windmill Rivera sucks (at waving in runners, maybe he can be bench coach) and Montoyo sucks massive dongs. The only coach I actively like is Tim Leiper because he actually stands up for the players, and it always looks like he's ready to throw down with someone.

 

My remedy:

Hire Gibby

Hire Ray Searage

Make Dante the third base coach

Hire Barry Bonds as hitting coach (who Christian Yelich credits with turning into a superstar at the plate)

 

Maybe it won't make a difference, I don't know, but the coaches on this team all seem stupid and they aren't even funny in the post game stuff.

 

Like, to improve his hitting, Danny Jansen went to f***ing Ryan Borucki's dad. That should be all you need to know.

 

Hire Ray Searage? The guy who couldn't get anything out of Gerrit Cole and Tyler Glasnow? Yeah he made 35 year old AJ Burnett good again and turned around low 30s JA Happ, but is that really the kind of pitching coach we want to develop guys like Nate Pearson? Does Pete Walker suck because Marcus Stroman and Aaron Sanchez are uncoachable douches? Does he not get some credit for Sanchez's one outlier good year, or Osuna turning into a star closer fresh out of A+? Romano, Kay, Hatch, Thornton, Borucki all look like young serviceable pitchers, with most of them being fringy prospects to start with, does Pete Walker get no credit in that? What about Dolis looking better in his last couple of appearances after beginning the year looking like he would be outmatched by AAA hitting? MAYBE PETE WALKER FIXED HIM.

 

The truth is we know nothing about how much impact the major league coaching staff has had on these players, we can see that our manager consistently makes questionable/bad decisions so that's someone I can agree probably has to go. As for windmill Rivera, yeah he's awful at sending runners, but we've seen improvements on defense from Bichette and Biggio after being declared below average defenders in the minors. Not sure who works with the outfielders but that coach has made Teoscar look less terrible and Gurriel go from having the yips to playing a passable LF with few reps. How much is that on the coaching staff and how much is it on the players themselves to improve?

 

People are making reactionary claims after the huge sample size of 10 games in a shitshow of a season (we're only 4-6 btw lol, after facing good teams like Tampa and Atlanta with the reigning WS champs mixed in there) where the Marlins are currently leading the NL East by a landslide. Everyone needs to calm the f*** down.

[Stangstag]

We've been in almost every game, and we've faced generally good pitching. I'm frustrated as f***, but nothing (other than the fact that Joe Panik should stop getting f***ing ABs) can be reasonably inferred from a sample size this small.

 

If we suck balls against the truly awful Red Sox over the next few games, then we have more to worry about.

 

Agreed. The 3 teams we faced so far are all 90+ win teams, and the Jays definitely aren’t a better team than any of them. Lets see how they play against the Redsox/Orioles/Marlins over the next few weeks.

[Olerud363]

Sounds like most people are on the same page.

 

Low on base percentage team, with "generational hitting prospect" bust (so far), with daily boneheaded managerial decisions sucks to watch despite the positives.

 

Entire coaching staff is probably gone at end of the year if this continues... though who knows for sure given the 60 game season.

 

Nightmare scenario ??

 

AL East sucks other than Yankees, Jays fluke to playoffs with 28-32 record, negative run differential, league low on base percentage and .240 .290 .380 line from Vlad.

 

Because Jays fluke to playoffs current coaching staff returns... more of the same next year but no fluke playoff appearances. Vladdy hits .260 .299 .390 next year, traded for nothing, then goes on to .330 .430 .600 line and triple crowns after new hitting coach finds flaw that was obvious to rest of league.

[Krylian]

Agreed. The 3 teams we faced so far are all 90+ win teams, and the Jays definitely aren’t a better team than any of them. Lets see how they play against the Redsox/Orioles/Marlins over the next few weeks.

 

Fair. But I think the main issue is that Montoyo has not been putting the team in the best position to succeed. If they fail, so be it... But it shouldn't need because your manager is clueless.

[Stangstag]

The "sudden" complaint is coming because they were almost last in on base percentage last year and last this year.

 

Teams that are doing good at development like the White Sox and Yankees are near the top in on base percentage.

 

It's only 10 games but Bo, Vlad and Bichette have on base percentages way below .300... the guys playing good Jansen and Hernandez and Gurriel are barely above .300.

 

Right now White Sox are an example of what good developed looks like. Young players are slugging and team on base percentage is .340.

 

It could all change quick.

 

Just an FYI Yoan Moncada was a top prospect (#1 on some lists IIRC?) and it took him 2 full seasons to start putting up good numbers. His numbers in the first couple seasons were pretty s***. Not every prospect hits the ground running like Acuna, and some don’t pan out at all like Profar. Lets just hope Vladdy takes the Moncada path. Im not really worried about Biggio and Bo

[Stangstag]

Fair. But I think the main issue is that Montoyo has not been putting the team in the best position to succeed. If they fail, so be it... But it shouldn't need because your manager is clueless.

 

Definitely frustrating. He’s managing with like 0 urgency. Their record could easily be 6-4 or 7-3 right now

[Krylian]

Just an FYI Yoan Moncada was a top prospect (#1 on some lists IIRC?) and it took him 2 full seasons to start putting up good numbers. His numbers in the first couple seasons were pretty s***. Not every prospect hits the ground running like Acuna, and some don’t pan out at all like Profar. Lets just hope Vladdy takes the Moncada path. Im not really worried about Biggio and Bo

 

Biggio was never really considered a top prospect (was he ever aTop 100). If he doesn't pan out it shouldn't be a big surprise... That's why we have Martin. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see him as the Jays starting 2B in 2-3 years.

[Orgfiller]

Sounds like most people are on the same page.

 

Low on base percentage team, with "generational hitting prospect" bust (so far), with daily boneheaded managerial decisions sucks to watch despite the positives.

 

Entire coaching staff is probably gone at end of the year if this continues... though who knows for sure given the 60 game season.

 

Nightmare scenario ??

 

AL East sucks other than Yankees, Jays fluke to playoffs with 28-32 record, negative run differential, league low on base percentage and .240 .290 .380 line from Vlad.

 

Because Jays fluke to playoffs current coaching staff returns... more of the same next year but no fluke playoff appearances. Vladdy hits .260 .299 .390 next year, traded for nothing, then goes on to .330 .430 .600 line and triple crowns after new hitting coach finds flaw that was obvious to rest of league.

 

Holy f*** can you stop freaking out after a 10 game sample size? We're not the Yankees right now and 21 year old Vlad is not a bust after one season's worth of PAs. Thus far we've faced the #1 pitching staff in the league last season (Tampa), the #18 one in Atlanta who threw out a slew of young talented pitchers, and the #5 pitching staff who despite missing out on some of their top pitchers still featured an appearance from HoF Max Scherzer. Unless you expected this offense to be the Yankees offense it's not that hard to imagine struggling after that.

[Olerud363]

Apparently Charlie claims Wag was on the lineup card (but the updated one didn't get to umpires).

 

Buck and Dan claim the rule says the guy doesn't have to be on the lineup card anyway.

 

Why wasn't the game played under protest?? Was this Charlie's true mistake, not playing under protest? What do you have to lose from playing under protest?

 

Would Gibbie of played the game under protest ? (assuming his staff would make such a mistake in the first place)

[Orgfiller]

I wonder if in the Austin Martin circlejerk that was happening around these parts anyone noticed that he's 5 days younger than Vlad Jr. The guy who just got drafted and we're all excited to become our 3B/CF of the future is 5 days younger than the generational talent potential slugger Vladimir Guerrero Jr. who will have had enough time to struggle and make adjustments at the highest level of baseball by the time the former debuts and still be his contemporary.

[glory]

We had Bautista, who went through god knows how many teams before being a mainstay here. We had Encarnacion, who was claimed and then DFA'd by the A's, who developed guys like Olson, Chapman and turned Marcus Semien's career around (Marcus Semien from the White Sox, who sucked while he played with them, since they are also being praised here).

 

If I were Atkins, I'd be cleaning house right now. Pete Walker sucks, Guillermo Martinez seems to suck, Windmill Rivera sucks (at waving in runners, maybe he can be bench coach) and Montoyo sucks massive dongs. The only coach I actively like is Tim Leiper because he actually stands up for the players, and it always looks like he's ready to throw down with someone.

 

My remedy:

Hire Gibby

Hire Ray Searage

Make Dante the third base coach

Hire Barry Bonds as hitting coach (who Christian Yelich credits with turning into a superstar at the plate)

 

Maybe it won't make a difference, I don't know, but the coaches on this team all seem stupid and they aren't even funny in the post game stuff.

 

Like, to improve his hitting, Danny Jansen went to f***ing Ryan Borucki's dad. That should be all you need to know.

 

Agreed about the coaches. I know it's normal to think that coaching doesn't matter or makes little difference, but the two biggest franchise stars of the 2010's were a direct result of Dwayne Murphy/Cito Gaston and Luis Mercedes. Making some little adjustments can lead to success. Obviously you have to have the talent for those little tweaks to mean anything, but the Jays aren't lacking in talent.

 

I'm 100% on board with Bonds as hitting coach for the Yelich example alone. Yelich was hitting a lot of GB's too, and still does, but it's not preventing him from being a superstar at the plate with monster power.

[John_Havok]

Apparently Charlie claims Wag was on the lineup card (but the updated one didn't get to umpires).

 

Buck and Dan claim the rule says the guy doesn't have to be on the lineup card anyway.

 

Why wasn't the game played under protest?? Was this Charlie's true mistake, not playing under protest? What do you have to lose from playing under protest?

 

Would Gibbie of played the game under protest ? (assuming his staff would make such a mistake in the first place)

 

Gibby would have included him on the lineup card either way, but the fact remains he doesn’t have to be there in order to be eligible. Putting potential subs on the lineup card that you give to the ump is a courtesy, not required.

 

Yes, he should have played the remainder of the game under protest, but probably didn’t know the rule any better than the ump did, or the opposing manager

[Deadpool]

Apparently someone named Dany Jimenez was claimed in the rule 5 draft from the Jays by the Giants, and has been returned.

 

I've literally never heard of that player before.

[Jonn]

Apparently someone named Dany Jimenez was claimed in the rule 5 draft from the Jays by the Giants, and has been returned.

 

I've literally never heard of that player before.

 

King would be disappointed you don’t know him : ( I actually think he pitched Opening Night for the Giants in a leverage situation lol. I remember watching his debut for sure. He could end up factoring in here at some point.

[Laika]

Apparently someone named Dany Jimenez was claimed in the rule 5 draft from the Jays by the Giants, and has been returned.

 

I've literally never heard of that player before.

 

Tons of strikeouts as a minor league reliever last year. Old for the levels though. You should have known him!