Offseason Roster Thread 2019-2020

[Orgfiller]

Corey Dickerson seems like a good buy-low target. I'd love Ozuna though.

 

We really do need to land a big starter.

 

I'm not sure Dickerson is a buy low, he's been injured but his hitting has been very good and he's pretty much proving that last year's defensive breakout was an outlier and he's back to being awful out there. Not the guy I'd be most comfortable investing money in, unless he's one of those practically free guys, which he very well might be.

[Abomination]

I'm not sure Dickerson is a buy low, he's been injured but his hitting has been very good and he's pretty much proving that last year's defensive breakout was an outlier and he's back to being awful out there. Not the guy I'd be most comfortable investing money in, unless he's one of those practically free guys, which he very well might be.

 

He's playing through a sore foot. I'm not too worried about the defense.

 

I wouldn't give him stupid money, but he seems like someone who will almost certainly return surplus value otherwise.

[Barkerfan23]

Neither Atkins or Shapiro have a contract beyond next year. This is the first situation that needs to get addressed

[Krylian]

Neither Atkins or Shapiro have a contract beyond next year. This is the first situation that needs to get addressed

 

If they don't get extended this offseason they're gone. I don't see them staying if they start 2020 as lame ducks.

[Bobthe4th]

If they don't get extended this offseason they're gone. I don't see them staying if they start 2020 as lame ducks.

 

It would be highly ironic if they weren't extended, then did an AA style all in trade deadline when they realised they were likely gone haha.

 

Seriously though, I'd expect Shapiro to be given the security, but not 100% sure Atkins will until nearer to next summer.

[gruber92]

Shapiro needs to be addressed by ownership that if he wants to stay, the next GM has to be given full reigns. I don't see Atkins sticking beyond next year.

[Spanky99]

It would be highly ironic if they weren't extended, then did an AA style all in trade deadline when they realised they were likely gone haha.

 

Seriously though, I'd expect Shapiro to be given the security, but not 100% sure Atkins will until nearer to next summer.

 

They'll both be extended, Atkins can't go into next season as a lame duck GM, it'd be a circus. They can still change direction the following season, regardless.

[Olerud363]

They'll both be extended, Atkins can't go into next season as a lame duck GM, it'd be a circus. They can still change direction the following season, regardless.

 

I don't know if you can evaluate them until after 2021. It's reasonable for next year to be another evaluation year. Sort out the outfielders and see if any make progress, give Vlad another year at third. See if Rowdy can make progress. Let the first wave of young pitching get established, and see how far the Richardson/Manoah/Koffenstein wave can get.

 

Then in 2021 the Tulo contract is finally over, they have all kinds of salary space, and trade chips... so at that point they should be contending or close... and if not then you consider changes.

[Krylian]

They'll both be extended, Atkins can't go into next season as a lame duck GM, it'd be a circus. They can still change direction the following season, regardless.

 

Thank you for not using irregardless. So common...yet not a word.

[BTS]

I don't know if you can evaluate them until after 2021. It's reasonable for next year to be another evaluation year. Sort out the outfielders and see if any make progress, give Vlad another year at third. See if Rowdy can make progress. Let the first wave of young pitching get established, and see how far the Richardson/Manoah/Koffenstein wave can get.

 

Then in 2021 the Tulo contract is finally over, they have all kinds of salary space, and trade chips... so at that point they should be contending or close... and if not then you consider changes.

 

I think moves have to be made to improve the team this offseason. If Atkins is unable to add wins this offseason and the team loses 95-100 games again next year, Shapiro should fire him. The rotation in particular needs to be addressed, and not with a bunch of Clay Buchholz and Clayton Richardses. Give the young positional core a shot at wild card contention if a bunch of them push in 2020.

[DigitalRock]

I think moves have to be made to improve the team this offseason. If Atkins is unable to add wins this offseason and the team loses 95-100 games again next year, Shapiro should fire him. The rotation in particular needs to be addressed, and not with a bunch of Clay Buchholz and Clayton Richardses. Give the young positional core a shot at wild card contention if a bunch of them push in 2020.

 

 

This...this team can be a lot better next year, there is no reason it can't be in contention for a WC, the position core is strong, but moves are needed.

[Laika]

Man the SP depth chart is depressing through the lens of trying to compete in 2020.

 

SP 1 - ?

SP 2 - ?

SP 3 - ?

SP 4 - Shoemaker

SP 5 - Thornton

SP 6 - Borucki

SP 7/8/9 - Waguespack, Kay, Zeuch

SP 10/11/12/13/14 - Murray, Perez, Murphy, Diaz, Hatch (most are RP or opener-level talents)

 

SRF = not realistic SP depth (RP)

Merryweather = not realistic SP depth (injury)

Pearson = slide him in wherever you want but he is a prospect with limited pro innings so it's hard to rely on him

 

Then some relevant long men or opener types in Font, Pannone, Gaviglio...

 

Basically the organization has SP depth figured out and accounted for except for like, the three most important pieces, which are completely missing. lol.

I don't mind the above players if they are positioned as such on the depth chart, but right now you're counting on Pearson to be like an SP2 and Shoemaker and Thornton to round out the top 3. Gross!

There's really zero need for crummy veteran signings (although some minor league ones are warranted).

 

I would welcome some productive opener shenanagins in 2020 if the team can't bring in enough actually good SP. I do not think guys like TJ Zoinks should be given long looks as normal SP, if they have trouble getting through lineups multiple times.

[glory]

Buying wins in free agency is short term and inexpensive now, with the exception of "elite" free agents (Machado, Harper, etc). Even trades for good players does not require top prospects being moved. It's the perfect time for the Jays to buy. I'd also be disappointed if they didn't make an effort to add some good vets to surround the young group with, especially in the rotation.

[Bobthe4th]

I think moves have to be made to improve the team this offseason. If Atkins is unable to add wins this offseason and the team loses 95-100 games again next year, Shapiro should fire him. The rotation in particular needs to be addressed, and not with a bunch of Clay Buchholz and Clayton Richardses. Give the young positional core a shot at wild card contention if a bunch of them push in 2020.

 

This is partly why I don't think Atkins is guaranteed to be extended this offseason.

 

We could easily be in the same situation this time next year, waiting for promising players to establish themselves, but .500 at best because we don't have any good vets or depth. In that case it'd feel like a wasted year of cheap Vlad and Bo (and Jansen).

[Brownie19]

Buying wins in free agency is short term and inexpensive now, with the exception of "elite" free agents (Machado, Harper, etc). Even trades for good players does not require top prospects being moved. It's the perfect time for the Jays to buy. I'd also be disappointed if they didn't make an effort to add some good vets to surround the young group with, especially in the rotation.

 

^this. This is correct.

[Barkerfan23]

Shapiro must be extended privately

 

He has already applied for Canadian Citizenship

[Barkerfan23]

What do you guys think about Collin Mchugh on a 2/30 type deal. (why would the Astros resign him, they can just fix a broken pitcher for much less.

[Laika]

What is the best up to date 2020 free agent list right now?

 

There is one on some sportrac website but not sure if it is solid. I'm not seeing any MLBTR tracker just yet.

[Olerud363]

Man the SP depth chart is depressing through the lens of trying to compete in 2020.

 

SP 1 - ?

SP 2 - ?

SP 3 - ?

SP 4 - Shoemaker

SP 5 - Thornton

SP 6 - Borucki

SP 7/8/9 - Waguespack, Kay, Zeuch

SP 10/11/12/13/14 - Murray, Perez, Murphy, Diaz, Hatch (most are RP or opener-level talents)

 

SRF = not realistic SP depth (RP)

Merryweather = not realistic SP depth (injury)

Pearson = slide him in wherever you want but he is a prospect with limited pro innings so it's hard to rely on him

 

Then some relevant long men or opener types in Font, Pannone, Gaviglio...

 

Basically the organization has SP depth figured out and accounted for except for like, the three most important pieces, which are completely missing. lol.

I don't mind the above players if they are positioned as such on the depth chart, but right now you're counting on Pearson to be like an SP2 and Shoemaker and Thornton to round out the top 3. Gross!

There's really zero need for crummy veteran signings (although some minor league ones are warranted).

 

I would welcome some productive opener shenanagins in 2020 if the team can't bring in enough actually good SP. I do not think guys like TJ Zoinks should be given long looks as normal SP, if they have trouble getting through lineups multiple times.

 

(Anecdote warning)

 

Marcus Stroman was 1 year away when he was at Alex Manoah's age.

Roberto Osuna was essentially 6 months from being the closer when he was at Wood-Richardson's as of Jan 1 age.

Aaron Sanchez was ready to contribute (as a reliever) when he was Pearson's age.

 

I guess there are 40 man roster issues and such... so maybe forget Richardson, and you don't him to be the closer... or maybe if you pulled an Osuna but instead of closer, just made him "pitching guy", could you get 100 innings. Can you do piggy backing with Manoah/Richardson

 

Can Manoah give 100 useful innings?? Pearson 120?? Can you make a list of how many useful innings every guy could give if used optimally then fit it together like a puzzle??

 

Can you piggy back Pearson and say Kay or something and get something useful?? Can you have an entire staff of guys pitching between 90 and 120 innings instead of 60 for relievers 200 for starters??

[Orgfiller]

What is the best up to date 2020 free agent list right now?

 

There is one on some sportrac website but not sure if it is solid. I'm not seeing any MLBTR tracker just yet.

 

I assume sportrac's is fine, it has all of the big names and lists every player's retaining status (team or player option) if applicable. The teams are all updated so I assume this page is generated programmatically from their own records.

 

One name that I haven't seen brought up much as possibly accepting an opt out is Stephen Strasburg, he's having one of his more durable years and putting up elite performance to go with it. That would put the top 3 names in FA as Rendon, Cole and Strasburg, all Boras clients lol.

[Spanky99]

What is the best up to date 2020 free agent list right now?

 

There is one on some sportrac website but not sure if it is solid. I'm not seeing any MLBTR tracker just yet.

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/08/2019-20-mlb-free-agents.html

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/03/2020-21-mlb-free-agents.html

[Dick_Pole]

(Anecdote warning)

 

Marcus Stroman was 1 year away when he was at Alex Manoah's age.

Roberto Osuna was essentially 6 months from being the closer when he was at Wood-Richardson's as of Jan 1 age.

Aaron Sanchez was ready to contribute (as a reliever) when he was Pearson's age.

 

I guess there are 40 man roster issues and such... so maybe forget Richardson, and you don't him to be the closer... or maybe if you pulled an Osuna but instead of closer, just made him "pitching guy", could you get 100 innings. Can you do piggy backing with Manoah/Richardson

 

Can Manoah give 100 useful innings?? Pearson 120?? Can you make a list of how many useful innings every guy could give if used optimally then fit it together like a puzzle??

 

Can you piggy back Pearson and say Kay or something and get something useful?? Can you have an entire staff of guys pitching between 90 and 120 innings instead of 60 for relievers 200 for starters??

 

I get what you are saying but relying on one young arm let alone three with the experience each of those have is just not smart roster planning for a team that should be on the peripheral of contention.

 

When AA left, the rotation was in slightly less shambles than it is now and Shapiro solidified that basically in the first month on the job, at great prices too. So this FO regime is more than capable of bringing in at least two guys who can be pencilled in at #3 or better without breaking the bank ($ or traded player wise). Especially now in this environment.

 

If the FO fails to significantly improve the pitching staff this off-season it is because:

 

A. Atkins is completely incompetent and needs to go.

B. This is a direct order from Shapiro to do a longer tank than necessary which is stupid for multiple reasons (wasting young guys' cheap years, impatient bandwagon fan base yearning for 2015 that's been proven to spend money during winning times), which in that case they both need to go.

 

I've been hard on Atkins lately, calling him a weenie, beta male etc. But this is chance to prove me wrong this offseason and I still have some optimism that it can happen. This is a minimum 81 win team by next March.

[Slade]

Who are you guys expecting they sign for SP? They almost assuredly won't be in on Cole, Bumgarner and Strasburg. I can see us attempting for Zack Wheeler but he's going to have plenty of options.

 

I'm expecting some attempts at tier 2 guys, reclamation projects and the usual dumpster diving.

 

Jhoulys Chacin

Jake Odorizzi

Michael Pineda

Rick Porcello

Michael Wacha

Clay Buchholz re-signed

[Laika]

Who are you guys expecting they sign for SP? They almost assuredly won't be in on Cole, Bumgarner and Strasburg. I can see us attempting for Zack Wheeler but he's going to have plenty of options.

 

I'm expecting some attempts at tier 2 guys, reclamation projects and the usual dumpster diving.

 

Jhoulys Chacin

Jake Odorizzi

Michael Pineda

Rick Porcello

Michael Wacha

Clay Buchholz re-signed

 

 

I like some of the names you listed.

 

Cole Hamels might be a good target given his age. One year deal?

I would be all over Rich Hill on a one year deal.

 

Keuchel might be worth a gamble on a 2 or 3 year deal.

 

Roark, Alex Wood, Kyle Gibson, Wade Miley are all interesting enough mid-level targets of varying talent levels.

 

There are enough options that it would be unacceptable for them to only pursue guys like Nova, Cahill, Chacin, Buchholz.

[BTS]

Who are you guys expecting they sign for SP? They almost assuredly won't be in on Cole, Bumgarner and Strasburg. I can see us attempting for Zack Wheeler but he's going to have plenty of options.

 

I'm expecting some attempts at tier 2 guys, reclamation projects and the usual dumpster diving.

 

Jhoulys Chacin

Jake Odorizzi

Michael Pineda

Rick Porcello

Michael Wacha

Clay Buchholz re-signed

 

There are a ton of names available that they should be in on:

 

Bumgarner

Cole

Gibson

Hill

Keuchel

Odorizzi

Porcello

Roark

Ryu

Strasburg

Wacha

Wheeler

Wood

 

Are all at least a bit interesting. There's also no reason why we should accept them not being in on Cole or Strasburg. They might not want to sign here, which is one thing, but with the current payroll space and roster composition, there should be a 200+M contract offer to Gerrit Cole.

[Laika]

(Anecdote warning)

 

Marcus Stroman was 1 year away when he was at Alex Manoah's age.

Roberto Osuna was essentially 6 months from being the closer when he was at Wood-Richardson's as of Jan 1 age.

Aaron Sanchez was ready to contribute (as a reliever) when he was Pearson's age.

 

I guess there are 40 man roster issues and such... so maybe forget Richardson, and you don't him to be the closer... or maybe if you pulled an Osuna but instead of closer, just made him "pitching guy", could you get 100 innings. Can you do piggy backing with Manoah/Richardson

 

Can Manoah give 100 useful innings?? Pearson 120?? Can you make a list of how many useful innings every guy could give if used optimally then fit it together like a puzzle??

 

Can you piggy back Pearson and say Kay or something and get something useful?? Can you have an entire staff of guys pitching between 90 and 120 innings instead of 60 for relievers 200 for starters??

 

Manoah in 2021 is realistic. That's the Stroman timeline.

SWR in 2021 is realistic if he continues this precocious trend.

Pearson contributing in 2020 is realistic, of course.

 

The context for Stroman/Osuna/Sanchez was very different. That was an older team pushing chips in. This current context is not the same.

 

If they aren't signing decent SP talent to bridge 2020 to 2021, then they'll definitely have to do some Rays-ish things with openers and piggy-backers in order to put up enough competitively pitched innings to have any chance at stealing a WC spot.

[Brownie19]

Who are you guys expecting they sign for SP? They almost assuredly won't be in on Cole, Bumgarner and Strasburg. I can see us attempting for Zack Wheeler but he's going to have plenty of options.

 

 

This narrative has got to stop. What is this based on? Shatkins didn't sign big name guys in Cleveland? The Jays didn't sign big name guys under Beeston? I mean it's by no means a lock we'll be in on these guys (and maybe we won't obviously), but to rule that possibly out completely is just dumb. Shatkins has never been in this position with the Jays (good, cost controlled young core + lots of budget available). We all have no idea how they'll approach this.

[Slade]

This narrative has got to stop. What is this based on? Shatkins didn't sign big name guys in Cleveland? The Jays didn't sign big name guys under Beeston? I mean it's by no means a lock we'll be in on these guys (and maybe we won't obviously), but to rule that possibly out completely is just dumb. Shatkins has never been in this position with the Jays (good, cost controlled young core + lots of budget available). We all have no idea how they'll approach this.

 

More that three ace pitchers heading into their 30's would be willing to sign with a team that just lost 100 games or damn near close to it when they can sign with perennial contenders for the same money.

[Krylian]

This narrative has got to stop. What is this based on? Shatkins didn't sign big name guys in Cleveland? The Jays didn't sign big name guys under Beeston? I mean it's by no means a lock we'll be in on these guys (and maybe we won't obviously), but to rule that possibly out completely is just dumb. Shatkins has never been in this position with the Jays (good, cost controlled young core + lots of budget available). We all have no idea how they'll approach this.

 

Who have the Jays signed since 1977 that's a prime time elite level player, in their prime...to a lengthy contract, for premium dollars? It's never happened. That's where the narrative stems from. The fact that there's no history showing that it's ever happened. You could argue Clemens...but he appeared to be on the decline when he was signed, and as soon as he had his resurgence he demanded to be moved.

 

Now...I don't categorize Bumgarner as being in his prime...but I don't see him signing here anyway...I see him as someone going to a current championship contender. The Jays may have been in the running for someone like him if this was a 2015 type team, but no one of any significant impact is coming here right now.

[Dick_Pole]

Who have the Jays signed since 1977 that's a prime time elite level player, in their prime...to a lengthy contract, for premium dollars? It's never happened. That's where the narrative stems from. The fact that there's no history showing that it's ever happened. You could argue Clemens...but he appeared to be on the decline when he was signed, and as soon as he had his resurgence he demanded to be moved.

 

Now...I don't categorize Bumgarner as being in his prime...but I don't see him signing here anyway...I see him as someone going to a current championship contender. The Jays may have been in the running for someone like him if this was a 2015 type team, but no one of any significant impact is coming here right now.

 

How many players hit free agency "in their prime"? Jason Heyward?

 

Molitor and Clemens both left their original team to sign with Toronto. That's like a dagger in the heart back in 1990's terms.

 

Based on your stringent definition there are probably 20 teams in the league that never sign anyone of note outside of players they control.