General 2019 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[Barkerfan23]

If we trade Giles to anybody, I want a serious prospect in return. None of this Drury and Billy Mckinney, Brito crap

 

Consensus top prospect,

 

I will be extremely dissatisfied with any less.

[glory]

If we trade Giles to anybody, I want a serious prospect in return. None of this Drury and Billy Mckinney, Brito crap

 

Consensus top prospect,

 

I will be extremely dissatisfied with any less.

 

Stroman and Giles both need to be traded for legit top prospects. Anything less and extending them becomes a more value driven option.

[Barkerfan23]

Stroman and Giles both need to be traded for legit top prospects. Anything less and extending them becomes a more value driven option.

 

Internal valuation has been the problem in trades thus far

[Jimcanuck]

Internal valuation has been the problem in trades thus far

 

This is incorrect. The Osuna return has been terrific. 2 months of an injured JD, or 2 months of a Happ, or a declining mediocre Pillar is not going to get much return.

[Boxcar]

Can I get a scouting report on Kleinstein? Never heard of him

 

Lol I love how he's just like "f***, idk, the Jewish sounding guy. Maybe I'll just slap two Jewish names together and hope for the best"

[Barkerfan23]

This is incorrect. The Osuna return has been terrific. 2 months of an injured JD, or 2 months of a Happ, or a declining mediocre Pillar is not going to get much return.

 

Right, so lets look at the prospects we acquired in that trade

 

Paulino, currently in AAA, 5.05 FIP thus far,

Perez, repeating AA, 4.20 FIP, hasn't seen any improvements in control really, still walking 5/9IP plus

 

Osuna has been on par with Giles, thats been a pleasant surprise, We had to trade Osuna, they did't want Giles either.

 

I would like to know how that is terrific,

[BTS]

Right, so lets look at the prospects we acquired in that trade

 

Paulino, currently in AAA, 5.05 FIP thus far,

Perez, repeating AA, 4.20 FIP, hasn't seen any improvements in control really, still walking 5/9IP plus

 

Osuna has been on par with Giles, thats been a pleasant surprise, We had to trade Osuna, they did't want Giles either.

 

I would like to know how that is terrific,

 

Well they replaced a guy who beat up his child's mother with an equally good pitcher who doesn't assault women. So that's pretty terrific.

[Orgfiller]

Well they replaced a guy who beat up his child's mother with an equally good pitcher who doesn't assault women. So that's pretty terrific.

 

Seriously, why do you bother responding to the Dogg? There's nothing in it for you or the rest of the board.

[BTS]

Seriously, why do you bother responding to the Dogg? There's nothing in it for you or the rest of the board.

 

It's a really slow day.

[Barkerfan23]

this forum is right out of 1984

[keggy]

Well they replaced a guy who beat up his child's mother with an equally good pitcher who doesn't assault women. So that's pretty terrific.

 

Accounting for historical performance and an extra year of control for Osuna, he is definitely the more valuable pitcher on the field. All other points still stand though.

[glory]

The Osuna trade was good given the circumstances, but that same trade would have been considered disappointing had Osuna not been involved in DV/legal issues at the time. They have a chance to make up for it though with a Giles trade, which hopefully yields at least one impact prospect.

 

Return for Giles + Perez + Paulino might end up being a net positive, possibly significant net positive (depends on what the return for Giles is).

[Barkerfan23]

I never said it was a bad deal, the prospects we got in that trade though, I mean Hector Perez might still be a bullpen arm, whatever but there isn't much there

 

and yeah, mostly Atkins had s*** to trade, but he didn't get anything for Oh either (unless a 24 year old repeating AA and opsing .800 is something to get a hard on about), lets look at it

 

Grilli for Edward Pinto (Dud, not even in the system anymore)

Liariano for Teoscar Hernandez (probably doesn't see majors again)

Joe Smith to Indians for Samad Taylor (Struggling at high A), Thomas Pannone (Replacement value pitcher, How long will he be in the majors?)

Steve Pearce to Redsox for Espinal (24 year old, average hitter at AA, probably doesn't see majors)

Loup for Waguespack (horrible at AAA still promoted, probably nothing, maybe extra long relief to throw in bad seasons)

Donaldson for Mayweather (hasn't thrown a pitch in 2 and half f***ing years, 28 now, strugguled AAA in 2017)

Granderson for Orimoloye (lol dont even look, it will make you sad)

Diaz for Trent Thorton (Okay we got something there)

Happ for Drury and Mckinney (Atkins vs. Cashman, yeah that went well, good job trading him to a division rival for nothing)

Pillar for Law (Okay relief arm maybe nothing special), Brito (LOL, he is really good according to Atkins), and Hanson

 

Probably a few more I am forgetting, be your own judge. I am on board with Shapiro, but these deals are probably just Atkins evaluating.

[wk680]

I never said it was a bad deal, the prospects we got in that trade though, I mean Hector Perez might still be a bullpen arm, whatever but there isn't much there

 

and yeah, mostly Atkins had s*** to trade, but he didn't get anything for Oh either (unless a 24 year old repeating AA and opsing .800 is something to get a hard on about), lets look at it

 

Grilli for Edward Pinto (Dud, not even in the system anymore)

Liariano for Teoscar Hernandez (probably doesn't see majors again)

Joe Smith to Indians for Samad Taylor (Struggling at high A), Thomas Pannone (Replacement value pitcher, How long will he be in the majors?)

Steve Pearce to Redsox for Espinal (24 year old, average hitter at AA, probably doesn't see majors)

Loup for Waguespack (horrible at AAA still promoted, probably nothing, maybe extra long relief to throw in bad seasons)

Donaldson for Mayweather (hasn't thrown a pitch in 2 and half f***ing years, 28 now, strugguled AAA in 2017)

Granderson for Orimoloye (lol dont even look, it will make you sad)

Diaz for Trent Thorton (Okay we got something there)

Happ for Drury and Mckinney (Atkins vs. Cashman, yeah that went well, good job trading him to a division rival for nothing)

Pillar for Law (Okay relief arm maybe nothing special), Brito (LOL, he is really good according to Atkins), and Hanson

 

Probably a few more I am forgetting, be your own judge. I am on board with Shapiro, but these deals are probably just Atkins evaluating.

 

Brito was actually not part of the Pillar deal (was obtained from San Diego at the same time period). The 3rd player acquired in that one is the young pitcher Juan De Paula. The general scouting report has a 4th starter ceiling on him, but he is also only 21 so could be something down the road.

[Jimcanuck]

I never said it was a bad deal, the prospects we got in that trade though, I mean Hector Perez might still be a bullpen arm, whatever but there isn't much there

 

and yeah, mostly Atkins had s*** to trade, but he didn't get anything for Oh either (unless a 24 year old repeating AA and opsing .800 is something to get a hard on about), lets look at it

 

Grilli for Edward Pinto (Dud, not even in the system anymore)

Liariano for Teoscar Hernandez (probably doesn't see majors again)

Joe Smith to Indians for Samad Taylor (Struggling at high A), Thomas Pannone (Replacement value pitcher, How long will he be in the majors?)

Steve Pearce to Redsox for Espinal (24 year old, average hitter at AA, probably doesn't see majors)

Loup for Waguespack (horrible at AAA still promoted, probably nothing, maybe extra long relief to throw in bad seasons)

Donaldson for Mayweather (hasn't thrown a pitch in 2 and half f***ing years, 28 now, strugguled AAA in 2017)

Granderson for Orimoloye (lol dont even look, it will make you sad)

Diaz for Trent Thorton (Okay we got something there)

Happ for Drury and Mckinney (Atkins vs. Cashman, yeah that went well, good job trading him to a division rival for nothing)

Pillar for Law (Okay relief arm maybe nothing special), Brito (LOL, he is really good according to Atkins), and Hanson

 

Probably a few more I am forgetting, be your own judge. I am on board with Shapiro, but these deals are probably just Atkins evaluating.

 

None of these guys had much trade value when they were dealt. If JD had been moved after the 2017 season (he was a top 10 hitter in baseball the 2nd half, IIRC), the return would have been much better. Could have been Jack Flaherty and one other, apparently.

[The Iceman]

Asset management has been horrible/fireable in fact.

 

Seems Shitkins trades an asset for lottery ticket(S). Better get one higher rated asset than a bunch of s*** IMO.

So far he has just got a bunch of s***.

 

The fact he got what he got for Donaldson told me all I needed to know about his trading skills.

[Spanky99]

[Brownie19]

These last couple of pages are f***ing AIDS to the eyes. f*** me.

[Brownie19]

 

I doubt we'll ever see Ryan Tepera again. Thanks for 2017.

[Krylian]

Even though it shouldn't 'As good as expected' sounds like he's f***ed.

[Bobthe4th]

Even though it shouldn't 'As good as expected' sounds like he's f***ed.

 

That’s because you’re a glass half full person though, haha

[P2F]

I never said it was a bad deal, the prospects we got in that trade though, I mean Hector Perez might still be a bullpen arm, whatever but there isn't much there

 

and yeah, mostly Atkins had s*** to trade, but he didn't get anything for Oh either (unless a 24 year old repeating AA and opsing .800 is something to get a hard on about), lets look at it

 

Grilli for Edward Pinto (Dud, not even in the system anymore)

Liariano for Teoscar Hernandez (probably doesn't see majors again)

Joe Smith to Indians for Samad Taylor (Struggling at high A), Thomas Pannone (Replacement value pitcher, How long will he be in the majors?)

Steve Pearce to Redsox for Espinal (24 year old, average hitter at AA, probably doesn't see majors)

Loup for Waguespack (horrible at AAA still promoted, probably nothing, maybe extra long relief to throw in bad seasons)

Donaldson for Mayweather (hasn't thrown a pitch in 2 and half f***ing years, 28 now, strugguled AAA in 2017)

Granderson for Orimoloye (lol dont even look, it will make you sad)

Diaz for Trent Thorton (Okay we got something there)

Happ for Drury and Mckinney (Atkins vs. Cashman, yeah that went well, good job trading him to a division rival for nothing)

Pillar for Law (Okay relief arm maybe nothing special), Brito (LOL, he is really good according to Atkins), and Hanson

 

Probably a few more I am forgetting, be your own judge. I am on board with Shapiro, but these deals are probably just Atkins evaluating.

 

Can I get a report on Mayweather? Never heard of him.

[glory]

None of these guys had much trade value when they were dealt. If JD had been moved after the 2017 season (he was a top 10 hitter in baseball the 2nd half, IIRC), the return would have been much better. Could have been Jack Flaherty and one other, apparently.

 

Agreed about not having much value at the time they were traded, but that should also be an indictment of the front office, who have routinely sold low aside from the Diaz trade. At the end of the day it's about value in versus value out. If the Jays are loading up on bubble 40 man roster depth when trading their best trade assets, then I don't see how we can view that positively.

 

Even though Giles and Stroman have more trade value than anyone else Shatkins has traded, I'm actually dreading (hyperbole!) the returns. They have to prove that they can get good prospects in trades before I feel confident. At this point I'm 100% on Team Stroman, sign him up to an extension ASAP, but I get the sense he's being shopped heavy so it's about getting the best return possible.

[Krylian]

Can I get a report on Mayweather? Never heard of him.

 

This is an older one from 2015...

 

It may surprise you, but there was a time when Mayweather wasn't just outclassing people -- he was stopping them in emphatic fashion. He retired Hernandez, stopped Manfredy in two rounds, dropped the ultra-tough Corrales five times and laid such a beating on Arturo Gatti that the latter's corner stopped the fight in the sixth round.

While that aggression and power hasn't stood the test of time, his defense has. Mayweather was once known as "Pretty Boy" for his perpetually-unmarked face after sparring sessions and he remains an incredible defensive wizard with his signature shoulder roll defense (also known as the Philly Shell).

Mayweather keeps his left hand at around navel-level, keeping his chin tucked and shoulder high. When a punch comes, he excels at keeping his head out of range and either slipping the punch or intercepting it. Shots to the body run into his left forearm and elbow.

Even a combination puncher as adept as Oscar de la Hoya struggled to land clean on a cornered Mayweather.

While the shoulder roll serves to stop punches that reach him, the name of the game for Mayweather is range. More specifically, just outside of his opponents. Unlike Juan Manuel Marquez, who prefers to stand his ground and counter mid-exchange, Mayweather frustrates his opponents by being just out of reach of their punches. His incredible defensive awareness allows him to pull his head out of range, leaving just his heavily-defended body as a target.

Even when he's cornered, opponents find themselves entirely unable to land a telling blow, often eating his signature right hand when they try.

Mayweather doesn't just keep his head out of reach, he can still move about the ring extremely well. He struggled in the first frame against Maidana when the Argentinian forced him to the ropes or corners. In the rematch, he focused more on circling. While the hazard of circling on the ropes is that you have a 50 percent chance of running smack into a punch, Mayweather used misdirection extremely well. Here, he fakes to his right before turning Maidana with his left hook, opening up plenty of space.

Offensively, Mayweather has both that signature pull-back and lead right hand and an extremely effective left hook. He used that hook to brilliant effect against Corrales and, more recently, dropped Marquez early in the fight. Most famously, he made Ricky Hatton run face-first into a turnbuckle with a gorgeous check hook. He also has a short uppercut, part of his terrific close-range arsenal.

Finally, "Money" has an excellent body attack, which I'd call his key to victory in the first fight with Maidana. In his more aggressive days, he could produce some cringe-inducing beatdowns to the belly, including his thrashing of Gatti. He can still land good hooks with both hands on the front foot and on the retreat.

But, we all know about how Mayweather wins. How does he lose?

More than once, we've seen someone get the better of Mayweather early in the fight. Shane Mosley jacked his jaw in a big way with a right straight behind a body jab, de la Hoya controlled the early rounds with his jab, Judah found success with his blistering hand speed and Maidana did some quality mugging.

Each time, though, Mayweather has adjusted midway through and taken over the fight.

What he did show against Maidana, though, was concession of position and some predictability. In recent years, Mayweather has been willing to be cornered or taken to the ropes, relying on his shoulder roll and head positioning to keep him free of danger. This cost him against Maidana, who was more than willing to roughhouse and take what hits he could get. While he fixed this tendency in the rematch, he also took his biggest blow since Mosley when Maidana drew out the pull-back right hand and countered with his own.

Again, Mayweather has never shown a consistent weakness. Castillo pressured him well in the first fight and couldn't do the same in the second. The same goes for Maidana. Mayweather just adjusts so well that it's hard to pinpoint a particular strategy for beating him other than just burying him in volume and chip damage. The limited success people have found, though, raises an interesting question on how he'll handle Pacquiao's combination speed and ability to close distance.

[mikepelfrey]

Well they replaced a guy who beat up his child's mother with an equally good pitcher who doesn't assault women. So that's pretty terrific.

 

the yankees traded Chapman who beat up his GF and got gleyber Torres and 3 more prospects including Billy Mckinney.

 

Torres>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Giles and houston was desparate to unload Giles

 

so no its not terrific the Yankees got Torres and 3 others for 3 months of an abuser, atkins traded a 22 year old star closer for a guy the Astros didnt want

 

dont even get me started on Josh Donaldson, turning down Flaherty and Bader over the winter only to trade him for a 27 year old non prospect in merryweather.

[P2F]

Ken Giles is not getting the respek he deserves ITT. He's been as valuable as Josh Hader so far this season - tied for 2nd most WAR among RP league-wide.

 

Just, uh, ya know, sayin'.

[mikepelfrey]

This is an older one from 2015...

 

It may surprise you, but there was a time when Mayweather wasn't just outclassing people -- he was stopping them in emphatic fashion. He retired Hernandez, stopped Manfredy in two rounds, dropped the ultra-tough Corrales five times and laid such a beating on Arturo Gatti that the latter's corner stopped the fight in the sixth round.

While that aggression and power hasn't stood the test of time, his defense has. Mayweather was once known as "Pretty Boy" for his perpetually-unmarked face after sparring sessions and he remains an incredible defensive wizard with his signature shoulder roll defense (also known as the Philly Shell).

Mayweather keeps his left hand at around navel-level, keeping his chin tucked and shoulder high. When a punch comes, he excels at keeping his head out of range and either slipping the punch or intercepting it. Shots to the body run into his left forearm and elbow.

Even a combination puncher as adept as Oscar de la Hoya struggled to land clean on a cornered Mayweather.

While the shoulder roll serves to stop punches that reach him, the name of the game for Mayweather is range. More specifically, just outside of his opponents. Unlike Juan Manuel Marquez, who prefers to stand his ground and counter mid-exchange, Mayweather frustrates his opponents by being just out of reach of their punches. His incredible defensive awareness allows him to pull his head out of range, leaving just his heavily-defended body as a target.

Even when he's cornered, opponents find themselves entirely unable to land a telling blow, often eating his signature right hand when they try.

Mayweather doesn't just keep his head out of reach, he can still move about the ring extremely well. He struggled in the first frame against Maidana when the Argentinian forced him to the ropes or corners. In the rematch, he focused more on circling. While the hazard of circling on the ropes is that you have a 50 percent chance of running smack into a punch, Mayweather used misdirection extremely well. Here, he fakes to his right before turning Maidana with his left hook, opening up plenty of space.

Offensively, Mayweather has both that signature pull-back and lead right hand and an extremely effective left hook. He used that hook to brilliant effect against Corrales and, more recently, dropped Marquez early in the fight. Most famously, he made Ricky Hatton run face-first into a turnbuckle with a gorgeous check hook. He also has a short uppercut, part of his terrific close-range arsenal.

Finally, "Money" has an excellent body attack, which I'd call his key to victory in the first fight with Maidana. In his more aggressive days, he could produce some cringe-inducing beatdowns to the belly, including his thrashing of Gatti. He can still land good hooks with both hands on the front foot and on the retreat.

But, we all know about how Mayweather wins. How does he lose?

More than once, we've seen someone get the better of Mayweather early in the fight. Shane Mosley jacked his jaw in a big way with a right straight behind a body jab, de la Hoya controlled the early rounds with his jab, Judah found success with his blistering hand speed and Maidana did some quality mugging.

Each time, though, Mayweather has adjusted midway through and taken over the fight.

What he did show against Maidana, though, was concession of position and some predictability. In recent years, Mayweather has been willing to be cornered or taken to the ropes, relying on his shoulder roll and head positioning to keep him free of danger. This cost him against Maidana, who was more than willing to roughhouse and take what hits he could get. While he fixed this tendency in the rematch, he also took his biggest blow since Mosley when Maidana drew out the pull-back right hand and countered with his own.

Again, Mayweather has never shown a consistent weakness. Castillo pressured him well in the first fight and couldn't do the same in the second. The same goes for Maidana. Mayweather just adjusts so well that it's hard to pinpoint a particular strategy for beating him other than just burying him in volume and chip damage. The limited success people have found, though, raises an interesting question on how he'll handle Pacquiao's combination speed and ability to close distance.

 

funny but I think he was referring to Julian Merryweather a soon to be 28 year old who is coming back from Tommy John Surgery. he is not much of a prospect, twice the indians assigned him to Triple AAA and both times he bombed with a 6.58 era in 16 starts. he gave up 105 hits in 78 innings. he's your typical hard thrower who can make minor leagues look silly but against advanced hitters he gets taken to the woodshed

[P2F]

funny but I think he was referring to Julian Merryweather a soon to be 28 year old who is coming back from Tommy John Surgery. he is not much of a prospect, twice the indians assigned him to Triple AAA and both times he bombed with a 6.58 era in 16 starts. he gave up 105 hits in 78 innings. he's your typical hard thrower who can make minor leagues look silly but against advanced hitters he gets taken to the woodshed

 

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/ea08dd86-f98d-4a66-a270-cda16ee5ebc9

[mikepelfrey]

Ken Giles is not getting the respek he deserves ITT. He's been as valuable as Josh Hader so far this season - tied for 2nd most WAR among RP league-wide.

 

Just, uh, ya know, sayin'.

 

Giles history is a guy who pitches great for teams in the second divsion, where the results dont matter, was great for the Phillies and now the Jays but when the games counted for the astros he imploded with a near 12 ERA in 3 playoff series. Boston NY and the Dodgers pounded on him like he was their personal rented Mule.....no wonder the Astros were desparate to get rid of him

 

Osuna since the trade has been lights out for the Astros

[mikepelfrey]

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/ea08dd86-f98d-4a66-a270-cda16ee5ebc9

 

 

sorry. I guess.... I mistakely assumed you wanted the truth

 

trust me its better here than in the prosportsdaily forum, there they want only glowing positive reports.....the few of us who dare tell the truth get ridiculed