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Brownie19 New Hampshire Fisher Cats

Brownie19

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I agree that the slide was a violation of the rules as they currently stand, but I don't think it was particularly dirty, reckless or egregious. Rizzo just clipped his back foot and the catcher lost his balance. I can understand Hurdle's frustration because it WAS a rule violation, and Maddon's because he feels his player tried to break up a double play, which has been a part of the game for a long time. I gotta say, I'm not a big fan of the Utley rule. Injuries from slides were pretty rare and I feel like a baserunner should have an opportunity to assist the current batter running to first.

 

I just really disagree with the notion that take out slide should have ever been part of baseball. Why can I interfere with a player when sliding - but I can't just run right over him? Why does sliding make the play acceptable? Why can't I interfere with a player trying to catch a fly ball (while he's in the running lane), yet I can interfere with him making a throw? It seems so arbitrary.

 

I think it's been prove that baseball doesn't need take out slides (and it never did).

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Brownie19 New Hampshire Fisher Cats

Brownie19

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

Baez and the Cubs didn't like a hard slide by Joe Musgrove into 2nd tonight.

 

I really do hope Madden comes out and says that was a clean - good slide and that Javy Baez should shut the f*** up next time.

Spanky__99 FCL Blue Jays

Spanky__99

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Baez and the Cubs didn't like a hard slide by Joe Musgrove into 2nd tonight.

 

I really do hope Madden comes out and says that was a clean - good slide and that Javy Baez should shut the f*** up next time.

 

Maddon, damn it, and I agree.

Boxcar All-Star

Boxcar

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I just really disagree with the notion that take out slide should have ever been part of baseball. Why can I interfere with a player when sliding - but I can't just run right over him? Why does sliding make the play acceptable? Why can't I interfere with a player trying to catch a fly ball (while he's in the running lane), yet I can interfere with him making a throw? It seems so arbitrary.

 

I think it's been prove that baseball doesn't need take out slides (and it never did).

 

Yeah? Did Rizzo prove it when his slide produced 2 runs?

 

The difference is obviously intent. Hey, in the NFL, why can't I just tackle a guy by grabbing his face mask? In hockey, why can't I hit a guy from behind? You slide into second or third to avoid a tag and so that you don't run past the base.

 

I was under the assumption that this was common knowledge. It's the same with cleats up/cleats down, lateness of the slide. Officials in every sport make judgement calls on intent to injure, why does baseball need to be different? As long as the player is reasonably within the base path, he should be able to slide how he wants.

Brownie19 New Hampshire Fisher Cats

Brownie19

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Yeah? Did Rizzo prove it when his slide produced 2 runs?

 

The difference is obviously intent. Hey, in the NFL, why can't I just tackle a guy by grabbing his face mask? In hockey, why can't I hit a guy from behind? You slide into second or third to avoid a tag and so that you don't run past the base.

 

I was under the assumption that this was common knowledge. It's the same with cleats up/cleats down, lateness of the slide. Officials in every sport make judgement calls on intent to injure, why does baseball need to be different? As long as the player is reasonably within the base path, he should be able to slide how he wants.

 

Fair rebuttal, but the intent of the take out slide isn't to avoid the tag and/or to avoid running past the bag - the intent is to interfere with the defensive player. Your football analogy isn't bad, except tackling players is part of the game. They do have rules to help avoid injuries while tackling. Interfering with players isn't part of baseball (IMO), yet it was allowed all this time even though the rules said you can't interfere.

 

Interfering with a catcher allowed the Cubs to score 2 runs. For me - that isn't proof of anything. The media, teams and players have basically stopped bitching about the rule change. Players have adapted and it's no longer an issue. Personally - I don't miss seeing infielders get blown up at 2nd base one bit.

L54 Vancouver Canadians

L54

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Does anyone listen to the CBS fantasy baseball podcast? Yesterday they mentioned something about Jose Ramirez and a possible PED suspension. Is this still happening Angelo?
John_Havok MVP

John_Havok

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Baez and the Cubs didn't like a hard slide by Joe Musgrove into 2nd tonight.

 

I really do hope Madden comes out and says that was a clean - good slide and that Javy Baez should shut the f*** up next time.

 

That's what I mean about not putting any stock into what managers say. They're always gonna back their players regardless.

 

The Musgrove slide.... here's the 4 parameters of a clean slide:

 

1. Begins his slide (i.e., makes contact with the ground) before reaching the base - check

2. is able and attempts to reach the base with his hand or foot; check

3. is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home plate) after completion of the slide; check

4. slides within reach of the base without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder. check

 

I could see some debate on point 3, as it could be seen that he didn't really attempt to stay on 2b and was only able to do so because he made contact with Baez. His hand was dragging behind him but if he had not made contact with Baez, i wonder how far past he would have went.

Boxcar All-Star

Boxcar

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Fair rebuttal, but the intent of the take out slide isn't to avoid the tag and/or to avoid running past the bag - the intent is to interfere with the defensive player. Your football analogy isn't bad, except tackling players is part of the game. They do have rules to help avoid injuries while tackling. Interfering with players isn't part of baseball (IMO), yet it was allowed all this time even though the rules said you can't interfere.

 

Interfering with a catcher allowed the Cubs to score 2 runs. For me - that isn't proof of anything. The media, teams and players have basically stopped bitching about the rule change. Players have adapted and it's no longer an issue. Personally - I don't miss seeing infielders get blown up at 2nd base one bit.

 

Ok, question for you: if a player slides directly into second head first while a fielder is on the bag receiving the throw, should he be allowed to go slightly over the bag in order to disrupt the throw to first? He's taking a bonafide slide into the base where his natural momentum carries him over top the bag. Should players make a conscious effort to avoid the fielder even if they are reasonably within the baseline and it would hurt their team?

Brownie19 New Hampshire Fisher Cats

Brownie19

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Ok, question for you: if a player slides directly into second head first while a fielder is on the bag receiving the throw, should he be allowed to go slightly over the bag in order to disrupt the throw to first? He's taking a bonafide slide into the base where his natural momentum carries him over top the bag. Should players make a conscious effort to avoid the fielder even if they are reasonably within the baseline and it would hurt their team?

 

feels like you're setting me up here, but I'll say they should be able to slide head first into the bag. When you say "slightly past the bag" - I assume you mean can their torso to past the bag (not the torso and legs completely). If so, then yes.

 

 

Personally - I think the rules in place now are perfect. Essentially, players slide into a base just as they would if they were trying to steal that base. They slide with the intent of getting to the base as fast as they can - and with the intent of staying on that base. They can't veer offline, purposely try and make contact with the fielder, or slide way past the bag. Their intent can't be to try and interfere with the defender.

P2F Toronto Blue Jays

P2F

Old-Timey Member
Posted
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Posted
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/luke-heimlich-and-relitigating-the-past/

 

I find this situation very interesting. Anyone suggesting that it's possible that he's telling the truth, and didn't do it, is getting downvoted into oblivion. I'm surprised at how sure people seem to be, not only about what happened when he was 14-15, but about what kind of person he is now.

 

I remember when I used to enjoy reading the FanGraphs comment sections.

Jonn MVP

Jonn

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

I don't care how good he could be at Baseball. I don't want this dude on my team. I don't see what this girl had to gain from exposing him if it wasn't the truth. This happened before he was a star Baseball player and had a lot of money to his name. If she wanted to ruin his life she could have waited until he was drafted and signed his bonus than came forward.

 

He was a kid as well but he was old enough to know better. And people who can't control urges are scary people. I believe he didn't have any intention to hurt her. But I do believe the creep did it 100 percent. We're mostly all guys here. We know what we are like at that age. Some people find normal ways to deal with it. Some do the unthinkable.

 

He f***ed his own life. Nobody is going to be crying for him.

BTS GOAT

BTS

Community Moderator
Posted
Posted
I don't care how good he could be at Baseball. I don't want this dude on my team. I don't see what this girl had to gain from exposing him if it wasn't the truth. This happened before he was a star Baseball player and had a lot of money to his name. If she wanted to ruin his life she could have waited until he was drafted and signed his bonus than came forward.

 

He was a kid as well but he was old enough to know better. And people who can't control urges are scary people. I believe he didn't have any intention to hurt her. But I do believe the creep did it 100 percent. We're mostly all guys here. We know what we are like at that age. Some people find normal ways to deal with it. Some do the unthinkable.

 

He f***ed his own life. Nobody is going to be crying for him.

 

I think it's an interesting situation because nothing about it is black and white. How long should someone be punished for something he did when he was a young teenager? Is the world a better place if mistakes made at that age are punished for the entirety of the offender's life? How do the answers to these questions change when it's his word against the word of a 4-5 year old, and guilt isn't even 100% certain?

 

I don't know the answer to any of the above, and I think they're nuanced enough that people probably shouldn't be able to answer them definitively.

Brownie19 New Hampshire Fisher Cats

Brownie19

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/luke-heimlich-and-relitigating-the-past/

 

I find this situation very interesting. Anyone suggesting that it's possible that he's telling the truth, and didn't do it, is getting downvoted into oblivion. I'm surprised at how sure people seem to be, not only about what happened when he was 14-15, but about what kind of person he is now.

 

I'm always amazing at the strength of some (most?) people's opinion - especially when they have little to no information on the subject matter. It really fascinates me (while also royally pissing me off).

Brownie19 New Hampshire Fisher Cats

Brownie19

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I think it's an interesting situation because nothing about it is black and white. How long should someone be punished for something he did when he was a young teenager? Is the world a better place if mistakes made at that age are punished for the entirety of the offender's life? How do the answers to these questions change when it's his word against the word of a 4-5 year old, and guilt isn't even 100% certain?

 

I don't know the answer to any of the above, and I think they're nuanced enough that people probably shouldn't be able to answer them definitively.

 

I just took one of those Facebook survey's that's supposed to tell me what political party to vote for. There were 30 questions and I think I felt this way about 29 of them. The scary thing is I bet about 95% of the people who took the survey felt confident in their opinion about 25-30 of the questions and will base their votes on the strong (uneducated) opinions they have.

Boxcar All-Star

Boxcar

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/luke-heimlich-and-relitigating-the-past/

 

I find this situation very interesting. Anyone suggesting that it's possible that he's telling the truth, and didn't do it, is getting downvoted into oblivion. I'm surprised at how sure people seem to be, not only about what happened when he was 14-15, but about what kind of person he is now.

 

People love accruing virtue points.

John_Havok MVP

John_Havok

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I'm always amazing at the strength of some (most?) people's opinion - especially when they have little to no information on the subject matter. It really fascinates me (while also royally pissing me off).

 

Pretty much the whole comment section on that article is providing a perfect example of my earlier post. When it's a child molestation issues, there's 0 forgiveness available, no matter what the real facts of the scenario are.

 

There's just a deep, deep belief in nearly every human being that crimes against kids are unforgivable and the person responsible has no future value to society. Any attempted argument to the contrary is met with immediate vitriol and the person doing so is immediately labelled as a defender of child molestation - which is no place you want to be.

P2F Toronto Blue Jays

P2F

Old-Timey Member
Posted
  • Author
Posted
The Twins, once down 8-0 in this game, have just tied it at 8 in the 7th against the Indians.
King All-Star

King

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

kvothe: A couple months ago you were of the opinion that Ohtani should just stick to pitching. Has what he’s done over the first part of the season done anything to change your mind on that?

 

3:08

Eric A Longenhagen: I’ll say he’s hit better than I expected but I don’t think you should just get to retract opinions like that, post facto.

 

 

Nothing like not changing your opinion based on new information.

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