50 or 81?

[Terminator]

Is Chris Carruthers JFaS?

 

Where did JFaS go? Didn't he get a job with a team or something?

[metafour]

I was really pointing out the difference between hockey & baseball drafts. We can't just trade our best players for draft picks, then tank and pick Austin Matthews and be a postseason contender in 2 years. Baseball just doesn't work that way.

 

It'd be different if we could trade players for draft picks and load up on a strong year but until that happens I'd rather focus on getting the right haul for my best pieces if I'm a .500 team. It's much easier to project the players you're getting back via trade compared to drafting HS students 4 years away from development.

 

Obviously; I'm not sure why these comparisons to hockey are even being brought up. No, you're not going to draft #1 overall in baseball and have that propel you into the playoffs two years later, but to pretend like "it doesn't matter" in baseball or that its a "total crapshoot" is pure crap. Yes, the MLB draft is more volatile, but like I said, you also can't scheme the draft in any of the other major sports like you can in baseball. Case in point: the Astros got Daz Cameron, a ~Top 15 talent, at pick #39 due to the sheer bargaining power they had in being able to talk him into scaring every other team off by flaunting a price tag that only the Astros could come even close to. Whether or not Cameron succeeds is irrelevant to the fact that you can't do that s*** in any of the other sports, which means that that there IS quite a bit of power that comes with picking #1 in baseball. To argue that picking #1 vs. #15 means nothing because Mike Trout wen't #25 one year is stupid, really stupid.

[BTS]

Where did JFaS go? Didn't he get a job with a team or something?

 

No. That's a common misconception. What actually happened was some illegal communication between him and one of the minors on the site (King I think?), that resulted in a permaban, and incarceration for JFaS. He's in prison now for 5-10 years, and can't ever come within 100 feet of a school again. Not sure what exactly he did though.

[King]

I don't like to talk about it.

[Gary]

I don't like to talk about it.

You going to the Pint tonight?

[Dick_Pole]

The loser mentality wins again.

 

I'm a Leafs fan. I know exactly what it looks like when your team isn't bad enough for management to commit to a full on rebuild. And yes, I get that baseball and hockey are different, but the principle of building through drafting and developing applies to both sports. I don't have faith that this group will commit to strip it down and start over unless they're really that bad.

 

As I predicted.

 

As far as the last line, this is very, very egregious.

 

I DO have faith in this group to put the best team on the field at all times given the circumstances. Because that is the job they are paid very well to do.

 

There is no need for any team to ever have to strip it down to rebuild. The ones that do are doing so because of laziness and incompetence. The Philadelphia 76ers route and how has that gone for them?

[King]

You going to the Pint tonight?

 

Maybe, you?

[Gary]

Maybe, you?

 

Yep, probably! I'll buy you a beer!!

[metafour]

By the way, the fact that we've drafted literally 1 player worth a s*** in the first round (Stroman) in like the past decade+ of picking in the ~middle of the first round should kind of dispel the notion that its all meaningless and that it "doesn't matter" where you pick, much more so than the fact that you can name 2-3 guys who went first overall and failed.

[metafour]

There is no need for any team to ever have to strip it down to rebuild. The ones that do are doing so because of laziness and incompetence. The Philadelphia 76ers route and how has that gone for them?

 

We are in a very specific situation wherein our super-old and failing roster does not match up with the fact that our minor league talent is mostly spread apart with lots of it in the lower minors. In this situation, it makes every bit of sense to strip it down because it is the only sensible choice. We don't have near-MLB difference making talent that can "stretch" our current failing core roster. If you can't stretch what we currently have, then what the hell is the point of keeping them around anyway? Your other option is to sell your veteran players that you only have for 1-2 more years anyway and acquire MORE young talent which will naturally mesh better with what we already have in the minors from a pure timing standpoint.

 

I can't believe that some of you are so blind to what kind of situation we are in. We are the oldest lineup in the league (or close to it) and we're dead-last in offense. There is no "quick fix" to the fact that our lineup consists of like 2-3 guys that you have any sense of confidence in. This would be somewhat fixable if we had a handful of guys in AAA all knocking on the door, but nope, we've got Rowdy Tellez who is in a huge slump....and thats it. By the time any additional pieces are even ready, the 2-3 guys we do have will either be gone or they will be crap themselves.

[Dick_Pole]

We are in a very specific situation wherein our super-old and failing roster does not match up with the fact that our minor league talent is mostly spread apart with lots of it in the lower minors. In this situation, it makes every bit of sense to strip it down because it is the only sensible choice. We don't have near-MLB difference making talent that can "stretch" our current failing core roster. If you can't stretch what we currently have, then what the hell is the point of keeping them around anyway? Your other option is to sell your veteran players that you only have for 1-2 more years anyway and acquire MORE young talent which will naturally mesh better with what we already have in the minors from a pure timing standpoint.

 

I can't believe that some of you are so blind to what kind of situation we are in. We are the oldest lineup in the league (or close to it) and we're dead-last in offense. There is no "quick fix" to the fact that our lineup consists of like 2-3 guys that you have any sense of confidence in. This would be somewhat fixable if we had a handful of guys in AAA all knocking on the door, but nope, we've got Rowdy Tellez who is in a huge slump....and thats it. By the time any additional pieces are even ready, the 2-3 guys we do have will either be gone or they will be crap themselves.

 

Maybe we have different definitions of what "strip it down" means but in the context if this 50 or 81 thread I take it to mean trade every player of any value off the roster, fill it with scrubs and purposely tank for a #1 pick.

 

I'm all for trading Donaldson, Estrada and Happ if the team is out of it and that's what Shapiro and Atkins feel is right come July. But the goal should still be to get to 81 wins rather than 50 if that's what ends up happening. Trading those guys would net some MLB-ready prospects. The team has an owner which has had the willingness and the ability to provide a payroll in the top half to top third in the league. There are only two unmovable contracts on this team which means the Jays have a ton of payroll flexibility going into a rich free agent crop in 2018. And the Jays have a front office that users here have all raved about its analytical ability and has demonstrated an ability for creative moves like the Liriano deal and value moves like the Pearce, Happ and Estrada signings.

 

There is NO reason to expect or demand a tank, full-on rebuild or whatever you want to call it. What I do expect are shrewd trades, better player development and smart free agent signings to fill out the holes on the roster that at least carry the team to a respectable finishes - 75-85 wins over the next two or three seasons - until the prospects catch up. That's assuming 2017 turns into a complete wash and I'm not nearly ready to make that call yet.

 

As far as Stroman being the only first round player of note coming out of the Jays system in the last decade...well that should be an indictment of the Jays drafting and player development rather than drafting position, shouldn't it? When was the last time the Yankees had a top 5 pick? Or the Cardinals?

[Captain Adama]

Judging by how first overall picks are not even sure things to become bonafide studs, is suffering the multiple repercussions of a 100 loss season even worth acquiring just one such lottery ticket.

 

If your answer is anything but obviously not, then give your head a shake.

[SAAviour]

For me the pick is just an added bonus to a 50 win season...the reason I feel it's better is because Shatkins won't have to put the contending front up and Rogers will let them go to work the way they should. ie trading Donaldson etc.

If we appear to be in it and play .500 then they have to pretend we have a shot which could delay us being competitive for an extra year or two.

 

Right now with a 3-12 record the only player really with no trade value is joey bats and he could turn it around by July 31st.

[Jimcanuck]

For me the pick is just an added bonus to a 50 win season...the reason I feel it's better is because Shatkins won't have to put the contending front up and Rogers will let them go to work the way they should. ie trading Donaldson etc.

If we appear to be in it and play .500 then they have to pretend we have a shot which could delay us being competitive for an extra year or two.

 

Right now with a 3-12 record the only player really with no trade value is joey bats and he could turn it around by July 31st.

 

Martin is a negative asset and probably Pearce and Smoak as well

[SAAviour]

Well yeah, that's true. But smoak was never going to net us anything, Martin with that salary structure likely not either. Pearce could turn it around by July.

[glory]

Again, do you know how hard it is to only win 50 games? That's not even a faint possibility if the team decides to blow it up. Chances are they'll still have enough to win 65-75 games in the lean years. The difference between that range and 81 wins is a lot different than a historically bad team in the history of baseball.

[SAAviour]

Yes I know. 50 is an exaggeration...though they're off to a good start. I expect them to finish around 80 wins to be honest.

[Captain Adama]

Martin is a negative asset and probably Pearce and Smoak as well

 

Martin has already earned his contract and still continues to be a positive asset defensively.

[Jimcanuck]

Martin has already earned his contract and still continues to be a positive asset defensively.

 

He's currently a negative asset. $60M owed for his age 34, 35 and 36 seasons. 1.9 WAR in 2016. Early so far this year, but not looking good.

[John_Havok]

I say 81, just because I have faith that Shatkins knows we are not true contenders and will jettison the movable old guys regardless of their record.

 

50 wins would probably kill the market for the next 3 years and then you'd have rogers whining about attendance and pretending they can't spend money , when it's common knowledge now that gate attendance is nowhere near as important as it used to for revenue.

[Jimcanuck]

Finishing last in baseball results in the following:

 

Picking first in the June amateur draft

Being awarded a bigger draft budget for the first 10 rounds (which not only gives you a shot at the top player, but also the ability to shift more money around to impact the following rounds)

Being awarded a bigger international free agent budget

Picking first in the Rule 5 Draft

Having the top waiver claim position for the entire winter (when waivers are not league-dependent) and through the first month of the following season

[JFD]

.500 is the worst!

[Filmstudy]

As an Orioles fan, I definitely want the Jays to win 81 and not 50. A 2016 Yankee-style restocking at the trade deadline (not with 50 wins, of course) is a more likely nightmare scenario than a run back to 86-88 wins and WC contention.

 

Either way, I think the Red Sox will right themselves and win the East going away.

 

BTW, been going to the Caps and Leafs series (games 2, 5, 7 if nec) with a Leafs fan and learned a lot about hockey the last 10 days. I still can't get over the difference in ticket prices between the 2 cities. Center ice club seats for game 7 were still available from the team for $225 during game 5!

[Jimcanuck]

A sensible O's fan, hell hath frozen over

[John_Havok]

As an Orioles fan, I definitely want the Jays to win 81 and not 50. A 2016 Yankee-style restocking at the trade deadline (not with 50 wins, of course) is a more likely nightmare scenario than a run back to 86-88 wins and WC contention.

 

Either way, I think the Red Sox will right themselves and win the East going away.

 

BTW, been going to the Caps and Leafs series (games 2, 5, 7 if nec) with a Leafs fan and learned a lot about hockey the last 10 days. I still can't get over the difference in ticket prices between the 2 cities. Center ice club seats for game 7 were still available from the team for $225 during game 5!

 

Yeah $225 in Toronto gets you the privilege of negotiating a price for your ticket with a scalper.

[SAAviour]

Think about it people...a 50 win season could be somewhat entertaining in a perverted way and more useful then .500.

[SnowyEvening19]

Well the dumbest ( or unluckiest teams ) are teams that barely miss playoffs. Teams that have a truly devastating record can at least acquire a lot of quality prospects at the trade deadline. I would rather Jays continue playing laughing stock baseball and then acquire enough prospects to be within top 3 in the MLB farm ranking by the end of the trade dealine

[SnowyEvening19]

Awesome photo currently on Raptors official website frontpage

 

http://i.cdn.turner.com/drp/nba/raptors/sites/default/files/styles/game_block_hero_image/public/rapsbucks-1200_6.png?itok=UfuVrIpT

[Spanky__99]

Think about it people...a 50 win season could be somewhat entertaining in a perverted way and more useful then .500.

 

This team can't do it you asshat, maybe if they move the vets, I can't see it, It's still an 84 win team.

[Maahfaace]

This team can't do it you asshat, maybe if they move the vets, I can't see it, It's still an 84 win team.

 

They'd have to go 78 and 62 (.558 clip) the rest of the way to hit 84 wins. It's definitely possible, but so far I haven't seen any signs of this team playing over .500 level ball. They would need to have a pretty awesome May and June for Shatkins to not blow this thing up, I just can't see it right meow. I do hope I'm wrong, enjoyed the meaningful late season baseball so much these last few years.