Do you think Shapiro is forcing this team into rebuild mode?

[brianf]

You really give a f*** about what a bunch of dumb bandwagon fans think about Shapiro?

 

Those bandwagon fans got over losing David Price after a winter of crying once the team played well. Same deal here.

 

 

If JB and EE were re-signed and the Jays fell off in 2017, those fans wouldn't be there to support the team. Shapiro doesn't care about those fans, nor should he. THose are the easiest fans to get back, if anything.

 

I again agree with you that bandwagon fans are easy to get back and that fans got over Price based on last year's winning team but to say that Shapiro, Rogers and the FO doesnt give a s*** about the bandwagon fans is idiotic. Without those fans, attendance, ratings, payroll and the image of Toronto baseball to other FA's goes down. Will Shapiro loose sleep over it, no. But I'm sure all aspects of the Jays management do give a s*** including Shapiro.

[CHRIS]

So what exactly is Shapiro's plan. As things are right now we are a .500 team. This offense is not good enough we have no corner outfielders that aren't replacement value

 

We're about to waste what is probably the best starting rotation this franchise has had during this run. With a few additions we could be looking at another run yet Shapiro is allowing payroll to go unused.

 

Has Shapiro stated that he's done? The payroll isn't going unused; it just hasn't been used yet.

 

I don't think Shapiro deserves scorn until we see the roster going into the season.

[brianf]

You really give a f*** about what a bunch of dumb bandwagon fans think about Shapiro?

 

Those bandwagon fans got over losing David Price after a winter of crying once the team played well. Same deal here.

 

If JB and EE were re-signed and the Jays fell off in 2017, those fans wouldn't be there to support the team. Shapiro doesn't care about those fans, nor should he. THose are the easiest fans to get back, if anything.

 

BAM - spot on. Are Angel fans packing the stadium because they signed Pujols and Josh Hamilton long term?

 

EE's contract is nowhere near Pujols or Hamilton's contact. Using them as comparisons or the Jays current position is pointless.

[TheHurl]

So what exactly is Shapiro's plan. As things are right now we are a .500 team. This offense is not good enough we have no corner outfielders that aren't replacement value

 

We're about to waste what is probably the best starting rotation this franchise has had during this run. With a few additions we could be looking at another run yet Shapiro is allowing payroll to go unused.

 

Maybe their projection systems don't show this team as a .500 team. I know it seems crazy that the Robert Projection System could be wrong.

[CrackerJack]

You really give a f*** about what a bunch of dumb bandwagon fans think about Shapiro?

 

season ticket holders are "bandwagon" fans?

... many of whom lay their money down year-after-year-after year regardless of whether the Jays are a hot ticket in town?

[Maahfaace]

Has Shapiro stated that he's done? The payroll isn't going unused; it just hasn't been used yet.

 

I don't think Shapiro deserves scorn until we see the roster going into the season.

 

Shapiro deserves absolutely zero scorn. EE made a choice, actually his agent probably made the choice for him, and he more than likely deserves said scorn if scorning is needed to fulfill ones day. Plan B for EE might actually turn out better, Chris is right, wait and see folks!

[TholesWeirdEye]

Just wondering..

With not signing their core players.. I really think he is forcing this team into rebuild mode.. That's why he fired AA who made this team as a contender.

 

Reported.

[Manny Lees Barber]

season ticket holders are "bandwagon" fans?

... many of whom lay their money down year-after-year-after year regardless of whether the Jays are a hot ticket in town?

 

 

Ah, the "season ticket holder" argument.

 

You're simply a bandwagoner with more tickets.

[RealAccountant]

Hurl you are not the Mr Spock of this board

[Brownie19]

season ticket holders are "bandwagon" fans?

... many of whom lay their money down year-after-year-after year regardless of whether the Jays are a hot ticket in town?

 

Look bud - it's widely accepted that the vast majority of fans (STH, die hards or bangwagon fans) have absolutely NO f***ING IDEA how to construct a winning baseball team. Making decisions based on what will please the fans is the first step to failure.

 

David Price is a great example. Many "fans" were pissed right off that the Jays didn't even offer Price a contract and complained when he signed with the Red Sox. Then they watched him start off slow and stopped complaining. The pendulum has swung so far that I've heard multiple people quote his high ERA and suggest the Jays dodged a bullet with that contract - suggesting he's already declining. They have no idea he was just a little unlucky last year and was still the stud he's always been.

 

Bottom line - fans are typically stupid. Accept it.

[FireAlexAnthopoulos]

To answer the OP's question, no, Shapiro isn't. AA is the one who forced this team into "rebuild" mode by going all-in on a ton of aging vets, many of whom turned out to be useless, while depleting the farm system in the process.

 

The two deep playoff runs were fun after 22 years of total irrelevance, but it was never sustainable and we always got exposed by better-built teams in the end. Unless you're the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, or Cubs, you can't just trade and buy your way to sustainable winning. It starts with the farm system. Always has, always will.

[Boxcar]

season ticket holders are "bandwagon" fans?

... many of whom lay their money down year-after-year-after year regardless of whether the Jays are a hot ticket in town?

 

Doesn't mean they know jack s*** about baseball. Frankly, Shatkins have been an absolute blessing to this org and I can only think of one move they've made that I absolutely hated (Smoak). If the season ticket holders boo these guys, they are just morons with money.

[burlingtonbandit]

Do people realize like 30% of the Jays Season Ticket base are brokers/sellers? Its not like there is 25K people shaking their fist saying "WE need Edwin".

 

Fans should be more upset when/if the Jays don't sign Bautista.

[Krylian]

Do people realize like 30% of the Jays Season Ticket base are brokers/sellers? Its not like there is 25K people shaking their fist saying "WE need Edwin".

 

Fans should be more upset when/if the Jays don't sign Bautista.

 

I don't need Bautista back. What I do need though is that talent is added that keeps this team in the Championship conversation. But with each passing day I'm not sure how they're going to do that. On one hand, there's a clear message that the Farm System needs to be bolstered (ie. they value the 1st round compensation very highly). But on the other hand, they're putting themselves in a position where they'll be forced to trade young assets (prospects) to fill roster spots as the FA market is really dwindling.

 

The worst thing that can happen is for this team to go half way...not good enough to contend, and not bold enough to go full rebuild.

[Brownie19]

To answer the OP's question, no, Shapiro isn't. AA is the one who forced this team into "rebuild" mode by going all-in on a ton of aging vets, many of whom turned out to be useless, while depleting the farm system in the process.

 

The two deep playoff runs were fun after 22 years of total irrelevance, but it was never sustainable and we always got exposed by better-built teams in the end. Unless you're the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, or Cubs, you can't just trade and buy your way to sustainable winning. It starts with the farm system. Always has, always will.

 

I was going to post something along these lines. If you thought the way we were built would create a sustainable winner - you need to remove the rose coloured glasses. We're like Detroit right now. We might be able to patch it up and hang on for another year, maybe not. But long term, we're screwed unless we start to make some changes.

[CrackerJack]

Look bud - it's widely accepted that the vast majority of fans (STH, die hards or bangwagon fans) have absolutely NO f***ING IDEA how to construct a winning baseball team. Making decisions based on what will please the fans is the first step to failure.

 

David Price is a great example. Many "fans" were pissed right off that the Jays didn't even offer Price a contract and complained when he signed with the Red Sox. Then they watched him start off slow and stopped complaining. The pendulum has swung so far that I've heard multiple people quote his high ERA and suggest the Jays dodged a bullet with that contract - suggesting he's already declining. They have no idea he was just a little unlucky last year and was still the stud he's always been.

 

Bottom line - fans are typically stupid. Accept it.

 

There's nothing for me to accept because I don't refute any of that.

It's just nonsensical to call most season ticket holders "bandwagon" fans.

And those are the folks who will be at the State of the Franchise (now called The Leadoff) in early Feb.

[bzapple]

For a guy who's base running makes Edwin look fast and a guy who can't play defense 33 mil is not cheap.

 

As usual you're stuck a couple decades in the past. 33M isn't that much in today's market.

[Captain Adama]

There's nothing for me to accept because I don't refute any of that.

It's just nonsensical to call most season ticket holders "bandwagon" fans.

And those are the folks who will be at the State of the Franchise (now called The Leadoff) in early Feb.

 

You're creating a strawman, he never said STH = Bandwagon fans.

 

He said STH does not equal smart fans. Which is true.

[burlingtonbandit]

I don't need Bautista back. What I do need though is that talent is added that keeps this team in the Championship conversation. But with each passing day I'm not sure how they're going to do that. On one hand, there's a clear message that the Farm System needs to be bolstered (ie. they value the 1st round compensation very highly). But on the other hand, they're putting themselves in a position where they'll be forced to trade young assets (prospects) to fill roster spots as the FA market is really dwindling.

 

The worst thing that can happen is for this team to go half way...not good enough to contend, and not bold enough to go full rebuild.

 

Well if Bautista signs for less than the QO or gets a team friendly 2/3 year contract fans would have more of a reason to be upset. He's projected to be the better player than Edwin and is a bigger franchise icon. Like you said the pick is worth lots if you can get suitable replacements but if the team spends say $10 Million on Saunders over Bautista to preserve the pick thats dumb.

 

I think they make their mind up around the deadline on how to proceed. If they are in a wildcard spot they will do what they did last year, if not blow it up.

[CrackerJack]

You're creating a strawman, he never said STH = Bandwagon fans.

 

He said STH does not equal smart fans. Which is true.

 

This started when he quoted my post ("It'll be interesting to see what kind of reception Shapiro gets at the State of The Franchise in 6 short weeks") by replying "You really give a f*** about what a bunch of dumb bandwagon fans think about Shapiro."

[bzapple]

I'm late, and the thread has already been BTS'd, but I just wanted to chime that people get way too hung up on the rebuilder/contender binary. There's a lot of middle ground, and that's where you want to be. It doesn't mean you're being a small/mid market team that's being stingy, it's about building a sustainable foundation and using your resources in the most efficient manner. Financial flexibility is nice, but no team has unlimited resources. Every offseason there are a handful of players who you can sign to expensive deals, but continuing with to do that will eventually handcuff the org long-term. Having flexibility allows an org to spend on the right players when they come around, not just paying whatever it takes for any player that might improve the team in the short-term.

[burlingtonbandit]

I wonder how Shaprio/Atkins manage risk in years 3,4,5. Its understandable they are very risk averse as most newly brought in FO members are at first. But we saw the Indians last year with Miller and Oakland before that in Lester that FOs change their MO when in contention.

[Captain Adama]

I wonder how Shaprio/Atkins manage risk in years 3,4,5. Its understandable they are very risk averse as most newly brought in FO members are at first. But we saw the Indians last year with Miller and Oakland before that in Lester that FOs change their MO when in contention.

 

With Oakland, the Lester deal started a snowball effect where the Athletics went all in, and all they could manage was a wild card spot. Then they just went full teardown and still decided to add bitch tits Billy Butler next season. Really a bad thought process went in with that team.

[burlingtonbandit]

With Oakland, the Lester deal started a snowball effect where the Athletics went all in, and all they could manage was a wild card spot. Then they just went full teardown and still decided to add bitch tits Billy Butler next season. Really a bad thought process went in with that team.

 

I'd say they never even did a teardown. They should have traded everyone but instead held on to guys like Sonny Gray to try to catch lightning in a bottle with a true talent 80 win team.

[bzapple]

With Oakland, the Lester deal started a snowball effect where the Athletics went all in, and all they could manage was a wild card spot. Then they just went full teardown and still decided to add bitch tits Billy Butler next season. Really a bad thought process went in with that team.

 

It's weird how every couple years Oakland decides to rotate between being a great org or a terrible one.

[TheHurl]

Hurl you are not the Mr Spock of this board

 

I don't follow reddit...does this Spock guy have banning power there?

[Captain Adama]

I'd say they never even did a teardown. They should have traded everyone but instead held on to guys like Sonny Gray to try to catch lightning in a bottle with a true talent 80 win team.

 

Yeah, they half-assed it, should've traded guys like Josh Reddick as well.

[Pendleton]

I'd say they never even did a teardown. They should have traded everyone but instead held on to guys like Sonny Gray to try to catch lightning in a bottle with a true talent 80 win team.

 

Why should they be in a hurry to move a young starter just entering arbitration while his value is at an all time low point?

[GodDonaldson]

Anyway.. I just want Smoak to be DFA.. He is just a s***** player

[King]

Just wondering..

With not signing their core players.. I really think he is forcing this team into rebuild mode.. That's why he fired AA who made this team as a contender.

 

This is just my personal feeling/speculation(s), but I have a feeling (not quite 50-50% but close to it), that the Jays wind up bringing back either one of Joey Bats AND/or EE.

I think JB might have a hit to his pride, like many have said, since he might have to take less money, and less years on the deal. He might have to play LF, with either Zeek or someone else manning RF that the Jays acquire, and occasionally playing 1B and DH.

With EE, I could see them possibly bringing him back on a lesser contract than he expected to get, maybe even a one year deal, or a 3 year deal, with an opt out/player options for the next two (a la what the Mets had with Cespedes), and he can start at 1B, with Pearce moving to LF. It wouldn't be ideal defensively, but it gives the Jays more power.

 

I could see both coming back on less AAV deals, or backloaded deals, or short term (1-3) simply because, if someone wanted them, they'd be signed by now. You look at the moves made by other teams to add power bats, some even older than both of them, giving up some nice prospects, and they're sitting in the cold right now.

 

EE would be a bit more difficult with Morales at DH full time, but as i said, EE could man 1B. Wouldn't be ideal, but he showed he could handle it at least decently. Pearce has the ability to play LF. It might not be the best defense, but if EE wants to come back, can't find a place elsewhere, and the Jays can say "hey, we offered you a solid deal, you said no, you didn't find anything, you want to come back, the door is still cracked open, but it'll be at a one year deal worth this amount which is lower than you expected, or a short term deal, with an opt out, or less money, but you'll have a place to play, and on a contending team, we'll make it work" then maybe he comes back.

 

Similar with JB. If someone wanted him, he'd be signed by now. Maybe he doesn't get the AAV he wants, but maybe he gets the number of years he wants, or maybe a higher AAV on a short term deal.

 

I see JB more likely to come back simply because they can, worse case, stick him in LF, or work him out at 1B during ST, and Pearce in LF, and see how that goes. If not for anything just to see how it works out in case they want to try it during the season, but I see JB in LF, Pearce/Smoak manning 1B, unless they find a taker for Smoak. But then we lose a switch hitter (mostly a LHH, but he seems all or nothing. Could be from lack of ABs or he just is all or nothing).

 

I'm sure a lot of teams aren't jumping on these two, because, 1) the draft pick tied to them, 2) they might be asking for too much. I can see EE declining the rumoured Jays' offer of 4/$80 to test the market and because he's earned the FA rights, but the Jays weren't going to sit around waiting. One, or both might come back if the Jays say hey, here's the deal. Come back on one year deals, or 2-3 year deals on lesser AAV or backloaded deals (not a fan of those), and you get to play for a contender, and if you come back for one year, two years, you hit the market next year and might get a better chance especially with the changes to the CBA and the QO system, or you opt out and try your luck, and hopefully by then, the Jays have internal options, or can target other guys on the FA market next season.

 

Maybe they even try to bring back Saunders. It's odd no one has made a play on him yet. I know there's concerns about his knee, how he seemed to just disappear offensively in the 2nd half, but he made less than $3M, you'd think he could be had for next to nothing. Even doubling his contract from last year is a cheap gamble considering what some guys are getting this year who are much older (yes, I know, better histories of being consistent too).

 

I'm sure the Jays have back up plans and have targeted players either via free agency and/or trade, and the meetings are typically where sometimes ground work is just laid out. With what they need (1-2 corner OF, back up catcher, even though they've added AJ back to the roster and signed Mike Ohlman to a minor's contract who seems like he could compete for a back up spot as catcher, and really need some BP arms to compete with the revamped teams in the AL East, especially since we saw last season, if not the past 2-3, how early on the pen collapsing costed the team much needed games that they couldn't make up later on) they're certainly not done. I'ts not even mid December and many players aren't really concerned with what's going on (again just my opinion) especially with the holidays coming up, so there might be a flurry of moves made before the holidays, shortly after, plus there's January where you see guys who haven't found homes yet, sign for less.

 

To recap, I could actually see them bringing back both EE and JB on lesser contracts, and possibly (if not definitely) moving Smoak (really a cheap contract that someone will likely take on without the Jays having to pay anything on it, maybe a little bit if they're getting a solid BP arm, or three team trade might make it so they can just dump his contract without paying), and utilizing Pearce's ability to play LF to help out with accommodating one or both of them. But as I said it might require opt out clauses/player options, with back loaded contracts to get them back, and to address the bullpen. I really see it more likely that JB could return simply because he's more of a fit. We could use an OF. He fits. He's a fan favourite here (for the most part), and is kind of sitting waiting for a suitor. As long as what he's paid this year (which is why I stress maybe a 1-2-3 year deal, with opt out or back loaded) won't cripple the team's chances of trying to help with the 'pen, then I can see him back. EE would be a lot tougher since we have a full time DH, a guy who's a fairly solid 1B in Pearce, though he could play LF if needed, but might not be best defensively, and a redundant player with having Smoak sitting on the bench, wasting money.

 

Personally, I like both players, I like EE a bit more, but since he turned down the deal, the Jays had to act, rather than be left out in the cold, so I wouldn't mind if they went elsewhere and the Jays wind up with a pair of draft picks to help add some players to the farm. I also wouldn't mind seeing one, or even both back, providing it doesn't hurt the team's financial needs to try and bring in BP help. Both seems highly unlikely. One doesn't seem likely. I could be wrong, but their markets seem dry. They both seem to like Toronto. The FO could have just said we're moving on since we only have $X to spend and need some more help in the pen, especially since Cecil is gone, Loup hasn't been the same guy over the past two season that he was during the first few seasons. We have some rookies who look promising, but if you're going to contend you don't want to count on them. They could be like Biagini last year and surprise everyone, but you don't want to count on that, because if they falter, who are you going to? Biagini is going to prepare as a starter (or so it's said, but likely will be in the pen, to help Grilli in that set up role, unless a starter goes down, and they stick him in the rotation), our recent Rule 5 pick could be a nice pick up, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

If either return, it's going to have to be at a discount, or back loaded deal, or opt out/play option deal, that might be a blow to their egos, or might upset the union, since if either come back for less than the QO, or what some other guys were getting, the union might not be happy, but screw them.

 

Ideally, I'd like to see the Jays add some starter depth. Even though the Jays barely, but still had a good staff since they were a few points better than the team that beat them and went to the World Series, lead the league in ERA, I still think they need some starters to help out just in case.

 

So, excuse my long post, and getting off topic, since this is a JB thread, I can actually see him returning, mostly since his age, his poor season, people like him here, he seemed to like being here, (here means Toronto, I don't actually live there), but it would have to be at a lesser price than he is/was expecting, probably lower than the QO, maybe a 2-3 year deal, that is back loaded, which I don't like, especially for an aging player. Granted his injuries (slamming into the wall and hurting his toe, and them keeping him out because they didn't want to rush him back is understandable, and it was a more "freak accident" since it could happen to a 23 year old blue chip prospect, and his other injury, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it a knee/leg injury from getting caught in the seem of the turf? That could happen to anyone) played a role in his production, or lack thereof, but when healthy it looked like he was either trying too hard, or just never found his grove. He's defense has been poor, so maybe the swap to LF, or maybe starting games at 1B, and seeing how Pearce can play in LF during spring, might help out, or maybe just tell him, we want you to bite the bullet, swallow your pride and play LF, because your defense is fallen, and look for a better option for RF.

 

I think he's still not signed because of the draft pick, maybe his asking price, the talk of his ego/attitude since he seems to be a guy people either love or hate, and sometimes he spoke his mind more than he should have, or thought before speaking, and when OF are getting a king's ransom in trades, while he just sits waiting, something is up there. Maybe he's being stubborn, or his agent(s) are just trying to get him that one last deal since he's 36, and likely won't get much, coming off his worse season, or maybe multiple factors, or trying to wait and see what teams get desperate at the end of the offseason and will part with the pick to sign him. I wouldn't mind him back if he was moved to LF, maybe played 1B at times, DHed other games, and he didn't cost that much this year, which keeps the team from addressing other needs.

 

All that being said, as long as the Jays do what makes them a better team, gives them depth, gives them the ability to score runs, prevent runs, compete, and maybe make it to the World Series this year, obviously need some depth too since some guys are out of options, and might get lost on waivers, or are borderline replacement guys who were claimed, I'll be happy. If JB does come back, and can give at least one more year of solid production, and doesn't have a bad season, then I'll be happy. If he goes elsewhere, the Jays get a pick for him, and they fill the spot with someone with production, defense, and athleticism, I'll be happy. Whatever makes the team better, can score runs, prevent them, get back to the post season, and this time win the ALCS, then I'll be very happy. The other teams improved. It doesn't mean the Jays have to go nuts to compete blow for blow in acquisitions, since we have some good pitching, at least starters, some offense, defense, but we could use some depth, bullpen help, starter depth, and hopefully not have to rely on the homer run as often.

 

And since I'm making a huge post, and touching on many subjects, just a quick comment on the Yankees' code about facial hair, hair length, dress codes, and other things. I know many clubs have certain rules. I think MLB requires players to wear suits while traveling (from one city to another, but not wear them all the time, again, if I'm wrong, someone correct me), but the rules the Yankees have, even though they've had a long history, just seem a bit overboard to me. And no, it's not just because I'm a guy with long hair and a goatee that would have to be cut and shaved if I were to play for them. It just seems like arbitrary rules to have. I can see if someone signed as a FA, then you know what you're getting into. It's like taking any job and they say here's the dress code and how you must look. That is a little more understandable to me. But what about the guys who get traded, claimed on waivers, who don't have a say? They're supposed to give up what they consider their identity? I get you're earning more money than most people will see in many life times, and it's probably a small price to pay, and your employer can kind of dictate what you can and can't look like, (MLB with the "Brandon League Rule about having to wear sleeves or other covers on your arms if you have tattoos that might distract hitters, I'd think, and this is also coming from playing baseball for years, that unless the ink looks like a ball, you're not really going to be too distracted, but safety, ok), but let the players be themselves, and as long as they're not being a distraction to the team, who cares? If they get the job done, who cares? Hell, my back doctor looks like a guy you'd mistake as a Hell's Angel, and is the nicest guy you could meet. They talk about team chemistry (AA did, the Jays have over the past few years, and then they started to get good), you're kind of disrupting it if you're making people change who they are, in a sense. Maybe it's just me.

 

OK, I'm shutting up now. I've posted enough for a week with this post.