General 2016 Blue Jays discussion thread

[Boxcar]

I sure hope you follow Gary the Goat and Kevin the ****

 

 

Just Bearing and his wife SugarTits so far (you know, because I'm such an anti feminist) but I'll check those out

[Boxcar]

I'll never let it go. At no time did I think, "This is a good move." Or "This it'll be worth it for a playoff run."

An absolute terrible trade from day one and I called it. Guy was 39 or whatever it was at the time. People's defense was that knuckleballers can pitch longer.

 

I distinctly recall making a vain tweet at Dickey, begging him to reject the contract extension he negotiated prior to the trade. I was livid.

 

We really did look very dumb too. Donaldson definitely helped but I can't accept that as a consolation prize.

[Hal Johnson]

Just Bearing and his wife SugarTits so far (you know, because I'm such an anti feminist) but I'll check those out

 

Bolded part reminded me that I need to watch last night's season finale of Better Call Saul today. Thanks! Lol!

[Angrioter]

Fantastic article in SI about Shapiro and the high performance team as well as about sports science in general around baseball. This is probably my favourite thing Shapiro has done since being hired. Really excited to see what the new ST facility will look like too.

 

http://www.si.com/mlb/2016/04/12/toronto-blue-jays-sports-science

 

Good read

 

Just three years ago, for instance, the Pirates listed 54 people under the heading of their Baseball Operations department. This year, they list 74 such people, a 37% inflation rate over three years due only in part to folding their Information Technology department into Baseball Operations. Among the new titles are Sports Science Coordinator; Sports Performance Coordinator; Director, Baseball Informatics; and Coordinator of Medical Services. They also hired someone who had been on the staff of Chip Kelly when the now San Francisco 49ers head coach was leading the Philadelphia Eagles: James Harris, whose title in Pittsburgh is Special Assistant to Baseball Operations. Harris, a key part of Kelly’s “performance team,” has no baseball background. “It wasn’t relevant,” GM Neil Huntington explained to reporters.

[xposbrad]

Dickey being WHO he was is what made the trade possible. That's the reason he was signed for so cheap and even on the trade market. Dickey being WHO he was is what created what seemed like a unique opportunity.

 

But at the same time, they could have used their assets (prospects) to acquire another pitcher. Just because you're signed cheap, doesn't make you good. If Rogers wanted the best player available for their prospects, they need to look at quality not well he's signed cheap and can eat innings. That obviously won't win you world series as evidenced by what has happened.

[HERPDERP]

But at the same time, they could have used their assets (prospects) to acquire another pitcher. Just because you're signed cheap, doesn't make you good. If Rogers wanted the best player available for their prospects, they need to look at quality not well he's signed cheap and can eat innings. That obviously won't win you world series as evidenced by what has happened.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0

 

Who on that list do you think we could get for 3 quality prospects on a team that is wiling to trade?

[GD]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0

 

Who on that list do you think we could get for 3 quality prospects on a team that is wiling to trade?

 

Just a hunch, maybe James Shields

[KingKat]

But at the same time, they could have used their assets (prospects) to acquire another pitcher.

 

No they couldn't. They backed themselves against a wall with the Marlins trade. They were all in and yet still short on talent and they were right in that assessement. There's a reason the dickey trade happened in December and not earlier. If there was something better out there, they would have taken it. The right thing to do was to not put themselves in a "all in" position in the first place.

 

Just because you're signed cheap, doesn't make you good. If Rogers wanted the best player available for their prospects, they need to look at quality not well he's signed cheap and can eat innings. That obviously won't win you world series as evidenced by what has happened.

 

Well that's REAL easy to say with the benefit of hindsight. He was coming off a Cy Young season. They thought he was AT WORST and innings hitter but there was reason to believe that because he was a knuckleballer that projections weren't sizing him up properly and that he might actually be an ace and a cheap one to boot which is kind of a baseball unicorn because cheap controllable aces don't get traded. Sure this rationale proved to be false but it wasn't nearly as black and white at the time. It was a calculated risk that MADE ALL THE SENSE in the world once you've ALREADY MADE THE MISTAKE of going all in.

[Spanky__99]

Baseball Prospectus framing data out. Martin one of the better ones again. Vasquez is such an elite defensive catcher for Boston.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/sortable/index.php?cid=1926333

 

Seeing Kratz up there makes me want to puke, we should've kept him over Thole, he can catch Dickey too.

[KingKat]

Seeing Kratz up there makes me want to puke, we should've kept him over Thole, he can catch Dickey too.

 

What the hell is up with the undervaluing of Kratz? It's not just the Jays. Signed by the Padres to a MiLB contract on December 11. A LOT of teams had a shot at Kratz. Who woudn't want a ace framer as your backup C?

[Spanky__99]

What the hell is up with the undervaluing of Kratz? It's not just the Jays. Signed by the Padres to a MiLB contract on December 11. A LOT of teams had a shot at Kratz. Who woudn't want a ace framer as your backup C?

 

I don't get it either, I've been singing his praise for years now.

[burlingtonbandit]

What the hell is up with the undervaluing of Kratz? It's not just the Jays. Signed by the Padres to a MiLB contract on December 11. A LOT of teams had a shot at Kratz. Who woudn't want a ace framer as your backup C?

 

Thole is a pretty good framer and probably not that much worse than Kratz but because of the knuckleball he gets screwed on calls.

 

Edit: Meant this as a reply for Spanky above.

[z3r0s]

Just Bearing and his wife SugarTits so far (you know, because I'm such an anti feminist) but I'll check those out

 

Bearing is pretty fun, but i sometimes get tired of the low hanging fruit he goes after. I guess its easier to find content, and he does like to do lots of vids. Funny in any case.

[intentional wok]

I don't get it either, I've been singing his praise for years now.

 

I've been annoyed about Kratz for a while. Yet another C, and a solid one, that the org froze out because of the Thole-Dickey marriage. To use Kat's term, Thole is treated like some sort of "unicorn" with a PhD in knuckleball catching. I refuse to believe that Martin or Kratz could be so unable to work with Dickey that it necessitated employing Thole three years past his welcome. I will maintain that it's been an objectively sub-optimal move until someone slams a comically large binder of proof otherwise onto my desk.

[Spanky__99]

Thole is a pretty good framer and probably not that much worse than Kratz but because of the knuckleball he gets screwed on calls.

 

Edit: Meant this as a reply for Spanky above.

 

I'm quite aware of this, bro. Thing is Kratz has a bat, if Martin were to go down via injury*knocks on wood*, we'd at the very least have a viable bat in the line-up.

[Spanky__99]

I've been annoyed about Kratz for a while. Yet another C, and a solid one, that the org froze out because of the Thole-Dickey marriage. To use Kat's term, Thole is treated like some sort of "unicorn" with a PhD in knuckleball catching. I refuse to believe that Martin or Kratz could be so unable to work with Dickey that it necessitated employing Thole three years past his welcome. I will maintain that it's been an objectively sub-optimal move until someone slams a comically large binder of proof otherwise onto my desk.

 

Hahaha... I've never heard that before, well played KingKat. Yeah, IW it's really frustrating.

[vdubmvp]

I distinctly recall making a vain tweet at Dickey, begging him to reject the contract extension he negotiated prior to the trade. I was livid.

 

lol for some reason I like seeing that I wasn't the only crazy person who did this. Except I made a twitter account specifically for this purpose, and then got rid of it once the deal was done. That might be worse, I'm not sure.

[Jimcanuck]

Dickey trade was a huge overpay at the time, most here knew that. I almost passed out it was so stupid.

 

May turn out to be the worst trade in baseball history. Been saying that for 3 years.

[Captain Adama]

Dickey trade was a huge overpay at the time, most here knew that. I almost passed out it was so stupid.

 

May turn out to be the worst trade in baseball history. Been saying that for 3 years.

 

Worst trade in Jays' history? Yes. Worst in baseball history? Lol

[Jimcanuck]

Worst trade in Jays' history? Yes. Worst in baseball history? Lol

 

"May turn out...."

 

Let's forget baseball history for now - to be revisited 5 years from now. Do you have a contender for a worse trade in the past 5 years?

[Captain Adama]

"May turn out...."

 

Let's forget baseball history for now - to be revisited 5 years from now. Do you have a contender for a worse trade in the past 5 years?

 

Why are you changing the goal posts? OK, sure I'll bite, Donaldson trade and Miller trade are probably worse.

[Jimcanuck]

Why are you changing the goal posts? OK, sure I'll bite, Donaldson trade and Miller trade are probably worse.

 

A 3 WAR catcher and what looks like a 5 WAR SP for $500K a year each, with many years of control, vs a 9 WAR 3B at $10M a year and a few more years of control entering his decline years?

 

Nah.

[Brownie19]

Worst trade in Jays' history? Yes. Worst in baseball history? Lol

 

Remember when the Angels traded for Vernon Wells?

[Jimcanuck]

Remember when the Angels traded for Vernon Wells?

 

of course. worse than Dickey for d'Arnaud and Thor? no.

[43211234]

I remember going over to the Mets board during the Dickey rumours and everyone from the Blue Jays board was over there scoffing at the reports that both d'Arnaud and Syndergaard were in play.

 

I shocked when both were included and thought it was obviously a bad trade. But I wasn't too angry about it because I thought the team was going to be pretty good.

[admin]

I think you're underestimating the potential skill changes you saw in Dickey in 2012. His SwStr% jumped from 8 to 12% which sent his K/9 wayyy up to 8+ and I thought reason for the change was he'd learned how to throw his knuckle harder than ever before (and he did max out at 77.1 MPH in 2012, which was 1-1.5 MPH fast than the previous (and current) version we see. The flaw may have been assuming he'd be able to sustain that velocity, which seemingly had a massive impact on his effectiveness.

 

I'd argue those who seemingly "knew" Dickey would never replicate his 2012 season (or come close) should also have strongly been against the JA Happ signing this year...based on the assumption the tangible skill change wouldn't be sustainable.

 

How can you say I underestimating anything, when it turns out I was right.

How can you compare Happ, a free agent signing for the back end of the rotation vs giving up two blue chip prospects for an 'ace'?

[Brownie19]

How can you say I underestimating anything, when it turns out I was right.

How can you compare Happ, a free agent signing for the back end of the rotation vs giving up two blue chip prospects for an 'ace'?

 

seriously? you don't see what I'm saying?

[L54]

Smoak vs all RHP please.

[HERPDERP]

Barry Davis - "you're a bad player [smoak] but you have all these walks, what do you think?"

[admin]

I think you're underestimating the potential skill changes you saw in Dickey in 2012. His SwStr% jumped from 8 to 12% which sent his K/9 wayyy up to 8+ and I thought reason for the change was he'd learned how to throw his knuckle harder than ever before (and he did max out at 77.1 MPH in 2012, which was 1-1.5 MPH fast than the previous (and current) version we see. The flaw may have been assuming he'd be able to sustain that velocity, which seemingly had a massive impact on his effectiveness.

 

I'd argue those who seemingly "knew" Dickey would never replicate his 2012 season (or come close) should also have strongly been against the JA Happ signing this year...based on the assumption the tangible skill change wouldn't be sustainable.

 

seriously? you don't see what I'm saying?

 

I get what your'e saying, and you ignored everything I said. A pitcher with three years success in his career and 38 years old. I don't give a s*** about the spike in his stats. He's a 38 year old knuckleballer that you gave two blue chip prospects up for. A somewhat controlable ace shouldn't cost much more than that.

 

And again, looks like I (and others) was right. It's not like I made some crazy prediction that he wouldn't be that good, there was evidence backing it.