John Gibbons Thread (+ Venting)

[nextyear]

I'd like to applaud people for not completely nuking this thread... It shows true restraint.

 

Cito was a horrible manager.

 

 

I will just quote Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cito_Gaston "Cito Gaston managed the Toronto Blue Jays from 1989 to 1997, and again from 2008 to 2010. During this time, he managed the Blue Jays to four American League East division titles (1989, 1991, 1992 and 1993), two American League pennants (1992 and 1993) and two World Series titles (1992 and 1993)."

 

It is difficult (at this time) to imagine this being said about any other Blue Jays manager in the next 50 years.

 

I didn't actually follow the Blue Jays very closely during his first term as manager (I followed the Expos more closely), but even in his second term he was an improvement over John Gibbons: On June 20, 2008, Gaston was rehired as the manager of the Blue Jays to replace the fired John Gibbons. It was his first managerial job at the major-league level since being fired by the Blue Jays 11 years earlier—unusual for a World Series-winning manager. In his second tenure as manager, he succeeded in improving the team's record to the point that it finished over .500 after a poor start to the season under his predecessor, John Gibbons, that had the team in last place at the time of his rehiring. When Gibbons was fired, the team's record was 35–39; after Gaston and his coaching staff took over, the team earned a record of 51–37 for the remainder of the season which included a late ten-game winning streak and the Blue Jays finishing fourth in the American League East. (from Wikipedia). I followed the Blue Jays during his second term as a manager and he seemed to be doing a good job.

[guylaroche5]

The guy had Olerud and his pitiful wRC+ of 180 bat behind Carter. He was clutch and had the will to win.

[dineke]

I will just quote Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cito_Gaston "Cito Gaston managed the Toronto Blue Jays from 1989 to 1997, and again from 2008 to 2010. During this time, he managed the Blue Jays to four American League East division titles (1989, 1991, 1992 and 1993), two American League pennants (1992 and 1993) and two World Series titles (1992 and 1993)."

 

A toaster could get results with those teams.

[nextyear]

A toaster could get results with those teams.

 

 

But I am not sure if Gibbons could.

 

I do agree though that they were better defensively but I don't think they were any better offensively than the current Blue Jays.

[Olerud363]

But I am not sure if Gibbons could.

 

I do agree though that they were better defensively but I don't think they were any better offensively than the current Blue Jays.

 

ha ha -- lets get Cito...

 

1. Donaldson will hit sixth (Players such as Molitor, Alomar, and Scott Rolen had to so Cito'f favorites could get cushy line up spot)

 

Reyes

Pillar

Bautista

EE

Colabello

Donaldson

Martin

Tolleson

Travis

[Olerud363]

But I am not sure if Gibbons could.

 

I do agree though that they were better defensively but I don't think they were any better offensively than the current Blue Jays.

 

Now my second point... Steve Tolleson will be brought to play everyday, Colabello will play everyday, Smoak will be in the doghouse...

 

Why?? Because it is Cito. Cito has a soft spot for useless right handed hitters... because they remind him of himself... once upon a time Cito was a fringe major leaguer with one good year. He slumped and lost playing time to young players and left handed hitters.... he resents both these groups of players to this day. So Tolleson and Colabello will get every day roles. Thus the Cito Gaston lineup

 

Reyes

Pillar

Bautista

EE

Colabello

Donaldson

Martin

Tolleson

Travis

[Stangstag]

Now my second point... Steve Tolleson will be brought to play everyday, Colabello will play everyday, Smoak will be in the doghouse...

 

Why?? Because it is Cito. Cito has a soft spot for useless right handed hitters... because they remind him of himself... once upon a time Cito was a fringe major leaguer with one good year. He slumped and lost playing time to young players and left handed hitters.... he resents both these groups of players to this day. So Tolleson and Colabello will get every day roles. Thus the Cito Gaston lineup

 

Reyes

Pillar

Bautista

EE

Colabello

Donaldson

Martin

Tolleson

Travis

 

http://media.giphy.com/media/bLBIanKJW0Iuc/giphy.gif

[nextyear]

Now my second point... Steve Tolleson will be brought to play everyday, Colabello will play everyday, Smoak will be in the doghouse...

 

Why?? Because it is Cito. Cito has a soft spot for useless right handed hitters... because they remind him of himself... once upon a time Cito was a fringe major leaguer with one good year. He slumped and lost playing time to young players and left handed hitters.... he resents both these groups of players to this day. So Tolleson and Colabello will get every day roles. Thus the Cito Gaston lineup

 

Reyes

Pillar

Bautista

EE

Colabello

Donaldson

Martin

Tolleson

Travis

 

 

Maybe, but the team record under Cito Gaston from 2008 to 2010 was 211 wins and 201 losses.

 

Anyway, I intended to use Felipe Alou of Montreal Expos as an example of a manager who did a lot with players on a team that was put together on a shoe string budget. Often the Expos would have fire sales like the Oakland A's to unload their high priced players at the end of a season. Still he managed to keep the Expos competitive with young players.

 

The only way that I can see the Blue Jays becoming competitive in the future is if they get a new manager and GM.

 

I would prefer to watch the Blue Jays going with talent from their farm system than to keep watching them lose with overpriced "star" players acquired from other teams.

[Orgfiller]

Maybe, but the team record under Cito Gaston from 2008 to 2010 was 211 wins and 201 losses.

 

Anyway, I intended to use Felipe Alou of Montreal Expos as an example of a manager who did a lot with players on a team that was put together on a shoe string budget. Often the Expos would have fire sales like the Oakland A's to unload their high priced players at the end of a season. Still he managed to keep the Expos competitive with young players.

 

The only way that I can see the Blue Jays becoming competitive in the future is if they get a new manager and GM.

 

I would prefer to watch the Blue Jays going with talent from their farm system than to keep watching them lose with overpriced "star" players acquired from other teams.

 

Yeah who wants to see Bautista, Donaldson, and Encarnacion (overpriced "star" players acquired from other teams) when you could have the likes of Matt Dean/Mitch Nay, Rowdy Tellez and Anthony Alford filling their positions instead?

[CrackerJack]

Great job by Gibby to give Cola a couple of ABs against Archer ... and to give Russell the day off (funny how Navarro has caught the best pitching performances of the season so far) ... and to use Osuna to lock it down (with the off day tomorrow and with the Jays getting so few "save" situations.)

[LTR]

Great job by Gibby to give Cola a couple of ABs against Archer ... and to give Russell the day off (funny how Navarro has caught the best pitching performances of the season so far) ... and to use Osuna to lock it down (with the off day tomorrow and with the Jays getting so few "save" situations.)

 

The Navarro hate is completely overstated.

[Spanky99]

The Navarro hate is completely overstated.

 

*cough*REYES*cough*

[Deadpool]

Seriously, why do people post garbage like this?

 

If you don't agree, why not just say so instead of posting something that says nothing? Are you unable to express your thoughts other than with an insult?

 

I disagree with the statement "Cito Gaston was a great manager" for a myriad of reasons that are painfully obvious to anyone who has ever seen him manage a single game, and which have been stated on this, and other forums ad nauseam. The fact that someone would come in here and say "his teams won a lot of games, therefore the manager was good" is something that makes my brain full of f***. I felt the meme was more succinct and got the same point across.

[nextyear]

I disagree with the statement "Cito Gaston was a great manager" for a myriad of reasons that are painfully obvious to anyone who has ever seen him manage a single game, and which have been stated on this, and other forums ad nauseam. The fact that someone would come in here and say "his teams won a lot of games, therefore the manager was good" is something that makes my brain full of f***. I felt the meme was more succinct and got the same point across.

 

 

Thank you for the explanation. I am sorry that I posted a contrary opinion to yours.

 

But yes, a manager and GM who's team wins games and championships make up a good management team, in my opinion. The GM has to get the talent and the manager needs to manage the talent properly.

 

Now my mind is spinning, I thought winning was more fun than losing. I notice on this forum that people are more cheerful when the Blue Jays are winning than when they are losing.

[CrackerJack]

During the championship years, Cito wasn't a great manager (by any stretch) but he didn't have to be.

 

Just like the Yankees didn't need a great manager during their stacked dynasty years.

 

Cito & Joe Torre (and most other managers then) didn't give a s*** about OBP and optimum lineups etc.

 

For them, it was more about managing people (and egos) and making guys feel comfortable in their traditional roles ("table setter" ..."middle of the order RBI guy" etc. haha) ... Cito wasn't alone in that old school thinking.

 

And the players loved playing for both Cito & Joe.

Edited July 20, 2015 by CrackerJack

[nextyear]

During the championship years, Cito wasn't a great manager (by any stretch) but he didn't have to be.

 

Just like the Yankees didn't need a great manager during their stacked dynasty years.

 

Cito & Joe Torre (and most other managers then) didn't give a s*** about OBP and optimum lineups etc.

 

For them, it was more about managing people (and egos) and making guys feel comfortable in their traditional roles ("table setter" ..."middle of the order RBI guy" etc. haha) ... Cito wasn't alone in that old school thinking.

 

And the players loved playing for both Cito & Joe.

 

 

I actually agree with your opinion. I think managing high priced players requires someone who can manage egos. Somehow Cito Gaston was able to do it.

 

Truth is, I was initially going to use Felipe Alou of the Expos as an example, but I thought people on this forum would relate better to Cito Gaston. I didn't realize there was so much negativity towards Cito Gaston.

[RealAccountant]

I ac. I didn't realize there was so much negativity towards Cito Gaston.

 

Lol nice bait

[CrackerJack]

I actually agree with your opinion. I think managing high priced players requires someone who can manage egos. Somehow Cito Gaston was able to do it.

 

Truth is, I was initially going to use Felipe Alou of the Expos as an example, but I thought people on this forum would relate better to Cito Gaston. I didn't realize there was so much negativity towards Cito Gaston.

 

Well, everybody (or almost everybody) is into sabermetrics now (there are still a few dinosaurs kicking around in the game) but its prominence arose largely after Cito's first go around ... (sure Earl Weaver & Tony La Russa were ahead of their time) ... but it's perhaps a little "unfair" to view managing then with sabermetric principles of today.

 

I just finished reading Joe Torre's biography The Yankee Years ... you know, the GREAT Hall of Fame manager of 4 world series championships in 5 years. And after GM Cashman read Moneyball, he started giving Torre lineup advice like putting the best OBP guys higher up in the order, and Torre didn't buy it; he was dismissal of Cashman's stats, telling him "Never forget there's a heartbeat in this game." And this was the GREAT Joe Torre! . . . so Cito certainly wasn't the exception in the '80s/'90s.

[BTS]

Well, everybody (or almost everybody) is into sabermetrics now (there are still a few dinosaurs kicking around in the game) but its prominence arose largely after Cito's first go around ... (sure Earl Weaver & Tony La Russa were ahead of their time) ... but it's perhaps a little "unfair" to view managing then with sabermetric principles of today.

 

I just finished reading Joe Torre's biography The Yankee Years ... you know, the GREAT Hall of Fame manager of 4 world series championships in 5 years. And after GM Cashman read Moneyball, he started giving Torre lineup advice like putting the best OBP guys higher up in the order, and Torre didn't buy it; he was dismissal of Cashman's stats, telling him "Never forget there's a heartbeat in this game." And this was the GREAT Joe Torre! . . . so Cito certainly wasn't the exception in the '80s/'90s.

 

It goes a bit beyond that. Cito pretty much single-handedly drove Shaun Green and John Olreud out of town because they didn't hit the way he wanted them to. Guy was a giant *******, and his ego was f***ing huge.

[jaysfan2014]

Well, everybody (or almost everybody) is into sabermetrics now (there are still a few dinosaurs kicking around in the game) but its prominence arose largely after Cito's first go around ... (sure Earl Weaver & Tony La Russa were ahead of their time) ... but it's perhaps a little "unfair" to view managing then with sabermetric principles of today.

 

I just finished reading Joe Torre's biography The Yankee Years ... you know, the GREAT Hall of Fame manager of 4 world series championships in 5 years. And after GM Cashman read Moneyball, he started giving Torre lineup advice like putting the best OBP guys higher up in the order, and Torre didn't buy it; he was dismissal of Cashman's stats, telling him "Never forget there's a heartbeat in this game." And this was the GREAT Joe Torre! . . . so Cito certainly wasn't the exception in the '80s/'90s.

 

Great book, BTW. I've read it. Say, is Girardi more like what Cashman wants (high OBP guys)?

[CrackerJack]

Great book, BTW. I've read it. Say, is Girardi more like what Cashman wants (high OBP guys)?

 

well it appears so because Girardi likes numbers whereas Torre likes "heartbeats."

Cashman definitely wasn't in Torre's corner at the end.

 

I read Torre's The Yankee years and Francona's The Red Sox years back to back (from the library.) Very interesting to read the different perspectives of those overlapping years between the two historic baseball rivals.

 

IMO, Francona's book is better written and a more enjoyable read.

[Laika]

[Deadpool]

Thank you for the explanation. I am sorry that I posted a contrary opinion to yours.

 

But yes, a manager and GM who's team wins games and championships make up a good management team, in my opinion. The GM has to get the talent and the manager needs to manage the talent properly.

 

Now my mind is spinning, I thought winning was more fun than losing. I notice on this forum that people are more cheerful when the Blue Jays are winning than when they are losing.

 

Your implication that the Jays won anything because of Cito, rather than in spite of him, is pretty obviously false... But the more I see of your posts, the more I feel that you are trolling hardcore, so I'll just leave this subject alone.

[jaysfan2014]

well it appears so because Girardi likes numbers whereas Torre likes "heartbeats."

Cashman definitely wasn't in Torre's corner at the end.

 

I read Torre's The Yankee years and Francona's The Red Sox years back to back (from the library.) Very interesting to read the different perspectives of those overlapping years between the two historic baseball rivals.

 

IMO, Francona's book is better written and a more enjoyable read.

 

Thanks for mentioning that book. I'll see about finding Francona's book when I have a chance. Bet Francona would probably be saddened at what his former club has become (although the Indians haven't been great either.. more due to poor spending on guys like Swisher and Bourn.)

[nextyear]

Your implication that the Jays won anything because of Cito, rather than in spite of him, is pretty obviously false... But the more I see of your posts, the more I feel that you are trolling hardcore, so I'll just leave this subject alone.

 

You have some serious problems, one is a making something trivial seem like something important. But why should I expect rational thought from someone with a frowning spiderman outfit as his avatar?

[glory]

Great book, BTW. I've read it. Say, is Girardi more like what Cashman wants (high OBP guys)?

 

Cashman was on ESPN Radio this afternoon, and in reference to Sabathia, he mentioned that if you look deeper into CC's numbers using more advanced stats you will see that he has been unlucky and that his numbers will normalize as the year goes on. Cashman at the very least understands FIP, so he likely understands other advanced metrics as well, which Girardi likely does as well based on the way he manages.

 

AA and Gibbons look at ERA, and don't give two shits about defense, that much is for sure.

[ElNik2013]

Hutchison has a high ERA and Sanchez a low one yet Sanchez is going to the BP.

[glory]

Hutchison has a high ERA and Sanchez a low one yet Sanchez is going to the BP.

 

Sanchez is going to the pen because he got hurt. If he stayed healthy, and maintained the flukey ERA, you think they would have moved him?

[ElNik2013]

Sanchez is going to the pen because he got hurt. If he stayed healthy, and maintained the flukey ERA, you think they would have moved him?

 

 

Neither you nor who knows.

[CrackerJack]

Cashman was on ESPN Radio this afternoon, and in reference to Sabathia, he mentioned that if you look deeper into CC's numbers using more advanced stats you will see that he has been unlucky and that his numbers will normalize as the year goes on. Cashman at the very least understands FIP, so he likely understands other advanced metrics as well, which Girardi likely does as well based on the way he manages.

 

AA and Gibbons look at ERA, and don't give two shits about defense, that much is for sure.

 

Cashman arrived at the sabermetrics party very late ... he made numerous horrendously awful and laughable big ticket pitching acquisitions after Cone, Clemens, Wells moved on (as Torre's biography highlights.)