2015 Trade Deadline Targets Thread.

[BigCecil]

Hamels' contract is more manageable than what it would cost signing Cueto as a FA, or Shark. The Jays are losing MB off the books and I'm sure Dickey as well. So money will be freed up next season to take on a contract like Hamels and possibly sign another FA arm like Leake or Fiers, who I'm sure wouldn't cost that much.

 

One thing I keep forgetting is Martins deal is back end loaded starting 2016. All bets are off on the budget if we make the deals - get over the top and Win. We don't know what Rogers would offer up then for payroll.

 

I also think if Hamels continues to pitch like he has his deal is more moveable then Mark B's was, and he could be flipped again if the team doesn't break through.

[BigCecil]

The thing with that Cone trade was that Jeff Kent wasn't any kind of a special talent. He was never really exceptionally highly regarded. Was having a solid rookie year, but with Alomar at second and Gruber getting back into the lineup at third, there was no room for him. The Jays also threw Ryan Thompson into the deal, which was the equivalent of partying with DSJ (at best). It was a very easy trade to make (talent wise). I'm not saying don't trade prospects, but there is a point where the asking price could be too high.

 

Agree - not entirely analogous. Kent was 20th rounder although he was showing signs of things to come talent wise with us.

 

In that era roids changed the trajectory of a lot of careers.

Edited June 28, 2015 by BigCecil

[Smokey]

As I said, I understand the desire to win now, but would prefer a sustainable winner. I never said I'm against improving the rotation, but if they do, I hope they target a good young pitcher not a guy over 30. We'll see what happens.

 

I know what you said. Drawing parallels with the Marlins trade just screams of a jaded fan though since there are very little similarities between the two teams. There does eventually come a point where it makes sense to apply some urgency to your approach and not let the opportunity pass you by and this is one of those moments (unlike the 2013 offseason). Besides, the sustainable talk has proven to be a bunch of hot air fed to us by this FO. They abandoned that approach and haven't even talked about it in years... At this point, after all the years of failure, they seem quite content in achieving some level of success before thinking about the sustainable aspect of it and I don't necessarily blame them for it.

[BigCecil]

I know what you said. Drawing parallels with the Marlins trade just screams of a jaded fan though since there are very little similarities between the two teams. There does eventually come a point where it makes sense to apply some urgency to your approach and not let the opportunity pass you by and this is one of those moments (unlike the 2013 offseason). Besides, the sustainable talk has proven to be a bunch of hot air fed to us by this FO. They abandoned that approach and haven't even talked about it in years... At this point, after all the years of failure, they seem quite content in achieving some level of success before thinking about the sustainable aspect of it and I don't necessarily blame them for it.

 

The MIA and RA deals changed the paradigm for this team. Before that our record of actually drafting and developing MLB talent for our roster is pretty horrendous.

 

If we didn't make those deals we would now be seeing more cheap controllable talent on it. But we did and our core (Edwin and Jose B and R) is aging. Martin(FA) and JD(giving up more controllable cheap talent) were major upgrades.

 

Time to accept what we are and where we are and make the move(s).

[ElNik2013]

I know what you said. Drawing parallels with the Marlins trade just screams of a jaded fan though since there are very little similarities between the two teams. There does eventually come a point where it makes sense to apply some urgency to your approach and not let the opportunity pass you by and this is one of those moments (unlike the 2013 offseason). Besides, the sustainable talk has proven to be a bunch of hot air fed to us by this FO. They abandoned that approach and haven't even talked about it in years... At this point, after all the years of failure, they seem quite content in achieving some level of success before thinking about the sustainable aspect of it and I don't necessarily blame them for it.

 

 

I brought up the sustainable approach as a personal preference regardless of whether they are close or not. I also prefer that if they're gonna empty the farm, they do it for younger guys. Again it's a personal preference. The F/O abandoned that approach when they made the Marlins trade.

 

Anyway, we'll see what they end up doing, if anything.

[ElNik2013]

The MIA and RA deals changed the paradigm for this team. Before that our record of actually drafting and developing MLB talent for our roster is pretty horrendous.

 

If you mean before this F/O, yes, agreed.

 

If we didn't make those deals we would now be seeing more cheap controllable talent on it. But we did and our core (Edwin and Jose B and R) is aging. Martin(FA) and JD(giving up more controllable cheap talent) were major upgrades.

 

 

They made the Marlins trade in part to try and speed up the timetable to compete with Bautista and EE, imo. They may also have made it to avoid going into 2013 expected to lose 90-100 games which would've impacted attendance and tv ratings the wrong way.

 

And yes, had the Marlins trade not been made, they would have more cheap controllable talent and likely top 5 draft picks for 2014 and 2015. And they would likely not have made the Dickey trade.

 

Amazing that AA, isn't he? Emptied the farm and replenished it 2 times in 6 years!

 

Time to accept what we are and where we are and make the move(s).

 

 

It doesn't mean we have to agree with it no matter what. It depends on what they give up and for what player.

[jaysblue]

I see what you're saying but this reasoning seems a lot like the one used to rationalize the Marlins trade, what with windows and all.

 

 

I prefer a sustainable winner, but do understand the desire to win now, not to mention maintaining good tv ratings and decent attendance which is why I've been open-minded towards the team for the Marlins trade despite strongly disagreeing with it.

 

This is much different than the Marlins trade. The Jays had many holes on their roster still at the time and believed with the Marlins trade that they'd be able to jump right into contention, which was not true. They traded for a bunch of players with bad contracts (Reyes, MB) and an arm with an expiring contract (JJ). Reyes wasn't an elite SS anymore, MB was just a innings eater and JJ came with a huge amount of risk due to his injury concerns. They really didn't add anyone who was elite in that deal. In this case with Hamels, they'd be adding an elite arm at the top of their rotation which would push them over the top in the AL East (along with some other minor moves like the BP).

 

Also, remember Hamels is a lefty and lefties usually pitch well into their 30's. I don't see any significant decline with Hamels if he stays healthy. Plus remember the Jays would have Hamels for his ages 31-34 seasons, so if their is any decline it likely happens in that last season and it's not its going to be a complete drop-off. The last 4 seasons Hamels has posted 4.9, 4.6, 4.5, 4.2 WAR respectively. His K/9 (9.60) right now also is his highest since 2006. To sign a pitcher similar like Hamels on free agency isn't happening - an arm like Cueto who yes is 3 years younger will demand a 7-8 year deal for at least 20+ million AAV and he'll get it from someone. At least with Hamels, you're not tied down for 7-8 years like you would be by signing Cueto.

[ElNik2013]

This is much different than the Marlins trade. The Jays had many holes on their roster still at the time and believed with the Marlins trade that they'd be able to jump right into contention, which was not true. They traded for a bunch of players with bad contracts (Reyes, MB) and an arm with an expiring contract (JJ). Reyes wasn't an elite SS anymore, MB was just a innings eater and JJ came with a huge amount of risk due to his injury concerns. They really didn't add anyone who was elite in that deal. In this case with Hamels, they'd be adding an elite arm at the top of their rotation which would push them over the top in the AL East (along with some other minor moves like the BP).

 

Also, remember Hamels is a lefty and lefties usually pitch well into their 30's. I don't see any significant decline with Hamels if he stays healthy. Plus remember the Jays would have Hamels for his ages 31-34 seasons, so if their is any decline it likely happens in that last season and it's not its going to be a complete drop-off. The last 4 seasons Hamels has posted 4.9, 4.6, 4.5, 4.2 WAR respectively. His K/9 (9.60) right now also is his highest since 2006. To sign a pitcher similar like Hamels on free agency isn't happening - an arm like Cueto who yes is 3 years younger will demand a 7-8 year deal for at least 20+ million AAV and he'll get it from someone. At least with Hamels, you're not tied down for 7-8 years like you would be by signing Cueto.

 

 

It's different than the Marlins trade in the position they're at, as a team, I just don't like the idea that you have to do anything to go for it now because you have EE and Bautista.

 

Anyway, I will still judge any trades in terms of value and the long term health of the franchise which is why I was against the Marlins and Dickey trades.

 

No biggie, just a small disagreement.

[BigCecil]

It's different than the Marlins trade in the position they're at, as a team, I just don't like the idea that you have to do anything to go for it now because you have EE and Bautista.

 

Anyway, I will still judge any trades in terms of value and the long term health of the franchise which is why I was against the Marlins and Dickey trades.

 

No biggie, just a small disagreement.

 

Fair points. Edwin and Jose with an aging Reyes are big holes to fill from within by 2017 in the line up. Not making the push could give us a team with young pitching and a lack of offense we haven't seen in awhile here. Some would be ok with that.

 

Martin has been excellent this year but he is a 32 year old vet in the toughest pos on the body. He could fall off. That 5 year FA deal is too early to evaluate yet overall imo.

 

AA would be half pregnant to not make a deal - otherwise the JD deal (and others) don't make sense with what we gave up. (much as I like it).

[flafson]

Fair points. Edwin and Jose with an aging Reyes are big holes to fill from within by 2017 in the line up. Not making the push could give us a team with young pitching and a lack of offense we haven't seen in awhile here. Some would be ok with that.

 

Martin has been excellent this year but he is a 32 year old vet in the toughest pos on the body. He could fall off. That 5 year FA deal is too early to evaluate yet overall imo.

 

AA would be half pregnant to not make a deal - otherwise the JD deal (and others) don't make sense with what we gave up. (much as I like it).

 

If you compare Martin to Hanley Ramirez and Panda, that was an amazing deal.

[ElNik2013]

Fair points. Edwin and Jose with an aging Reyes are big holes to fill from within by 2017 in the line up. Not making the push could give us a team with young pitching and a lack of offense we haven't seen in awhile here. Some would be ok with that.

 

Martin has been excellent this year but he is a 32 year old vet in the toughest pos on the body. He could fall off. That 5 year FA deal is too early to evaluate yet overall imo.

 

AA would be half pregnant to not make a deal - otherwise the JD deal (and others) don't make sense with what we gave up. (much as I like it).

 

 

 

JD is under team control for 3 1/2 more years, barring an extension. I'm fine with improving the SP, I'm just not willing to say they must, at any cost.

 

 

If they made another JD trade, except for a pitcher, I doubt I'd be against it, I'd just have to look at who is involved.

[BigCecil]

If you compare Martin to Hanley Ramirez and Panda, that was an amazing deal.

 

Hey....Anyone would agree it looks that way now. But you cant evaluate a 5 year deal in half of one season. That's not rational.

 

In hindsight the LF experiment with Hanley looks like a failure and Panda is/was over rated imo. But it will take some time to really compare the deals. The Bosox are having a yr so far like they did when they dumped everyone of the Dodgers. I don't think they are as bad as they have shown.

[pickoff22]

At the end of the day there will always be two camps when it comes to a trade like this - those who belief it's worth overpaying to "win now" and those who don't want to get rid of up and coming potential talent.

 

Whoever gets Hamels is going to give up a lot. It will likely be an overpay. I don't remember the last time a star pitcher with so many years of control left was available. You're getting a stud pitcher that is underpaid in terms of current market value and has only 3 1/2 years of commitment left. It's a fantastic contract to take on for a team that is looking to take it to the next level.

 

The contract would fit perfectly in Toronto. It lines up with when JD is a free agent and gives our FO to bring in a top of the rotation pitcher without having to worry about their 5 year policy or struggling with the fact that some FAs just don't put Toronto high on their wish list of teams they want to play for. And this isn't just a trade that would help us compete this year obviously.

 

It will cost a lot and some people will bitch about what we gave up, but it sure would be exciting. The buzz that has picked up around the Jays after their recent success is awesome - just imagine what the playoffs would feel like in Toronto. This would be a "go for it" move that could have a real chance of moving us from contenders in the AL east to favourites, especially if Paps was also involved.

 

It just so happens that Hamels contract lines up with when JD won't be under team control any longer

[BigCecil]

JD is under team control for 3 1/2 more years, barring an extension. I'm fine with improving the SP, I'm just not willing to say they must, at any cost.

 

 

If they made another JD trade, except for a pitcher, I doubt I'd be against it, I'd just have to look at who is involved.

 

For sure he is...but he is an established MLB player and not as cheap (not questioning his value) as what we gave back to OAK.

[glory]

After the off-season of 2012, I never want to be the team that goes for it by trading every top prospect in the system for veterans. If you play for one year, that's all you're going to get in a best case scenario. The goal should be to be like the Cardinals (minus the hacking). Develop talent and never miss a beat even when losing a big name. I want the Jays to win over the next two seasons and then not miss a beat if/when Bautista leaves. That's going to require prospects panning out and smart trades (Donaldson/Travis type trades).

 

Regardless, remember what happened last trade deadline? We might be arguing for no reason here. The money probably isn't even there.

[Atothe]

After the off-season of 2012, I never want to be the team that goes for it by trading every top prospect in the system for veterans. If you play for one year, that's all you're going to get in a best case scenario. The goal should be to be like the Cardinals (minus the hacking). Develop talent and never miss a beat even when losing a big name. I want the Jays to win over the next two seasons and then not miss a beat if/when Bautista leaves. That's going to require prospects panning out and smart trades (Donaldson/Travis type trades).

 

Regardless, remember what happened last trade deadline? We might be arguing for no reason here. The money probably isn't even there.

 

Cardinals just traded 4 years of control (Miller) for a free agent to be in Heyward

[pat_borders]

After the off-season of 2012, I never want to be the team that goes for it by trading every top prospect in the system for veterans. If you play for one year, that's all you're going to get in a best case scenario. The goal should be to be like the Cardinals (minus the hacking). Develop talent and never miss a beat even when losing a big name. I want the Jays to win over the next two seasons and then not miss a beat if/when Bautista leaves. That's going to require prospects panning out and smart trades (Donaldson/Travis type trades).

 

Regardless, remember what happened last trade deadline? We might be arguing for no reason here. The money probably isn't even there.

 

 

The goal should be to win the world series. How bad will this season look if we miss the playoffs by 4-5 games with the best MLB offence in multiple decades, AA has to add impact arms. Forget about the future, I'd give up everyone in our Minor league system (except Hoffman) to add Hamels and Paps right now. Sanchez back to the pen and a late year call up of Hoffman would make this pen nasty!!!!!!!

 

Bullpen:

Pappelbon

Sanchez

Osuna

Hoffman (late year call up)

Cecil

Loup

Delabar

[jaysblue]

It's different than the Marlins trade in the position they're at, as a team, I just don't like the idea that you have to do anything to go for it now because you have EE and Bautista.

 

Anyway, I will still judge any trades in terms of value and the long term health of the franchise which is why I was against the Marlins and Dickey trades.

 

No biggie, just a small disagreement.

 

The question is will the Jays get lucky and have players like EE or Bautista fall into their lap again after 2017? Plus locking them up on team friendly extensions, far below market value a couple of years ago (when a player of Bautista's or EE's caliber on the free agent market would demand massive contracts). Just saying this opportunity won't present itself again since trying to go out and signing bats of Bautista's and EE's caliber as free agents would be next to impossible financially and even from a baseball perspective irrational since you'd likely have to hand out 8-10 year deals like Pujols or Fielder got, which as we've seen have been huge mistakes that could cripple a franchise for years.

[Hawkins]

The Phillies have no farm system. They want multiple top 50 prospects for Halmes and don't want to pay his salary. If that was happening someone would have done it by now. The Jays need to offer Pompey, Castro, Pentacost, Boyd and Urea. All but Boyd would jump into their top 10 prospects. Hoffman, Norris and Sanchez should be off limits. Adding them to Stroman and Hutchison will be the core rotation for many years. If the Phillies don't bite trade for a cheaper option Haren, Latos or Cueto. Stay the course and keep our top prospect and look to free agency next year to add a starter.

[Jimcanuck]

The question is will the Jays get lucky and have players like EE or Bautista fall into their lap again after 2017? Plus locking them up on team friendly extensions, far below market value a couple of years ago (when a player of Bautista's or EE's caliber on the free agent market would demand massive contracts). Just saying this opportunity won't present itself again since trying to go out and signing bats of Bautista's and EE's caliber as free agents would be next to impossible financially and even from a baseball perspective irrational since you'd likely have to hand out 8-10 year deals like Pujols or Fielder got, which as we've seen have been huge mistakes that could cripple a franchise for years.

 

When you draft and develop, you don't need to get lucky.

[Atothe]

The Phillies have no farm system. They want multiple top 50 prospects for Halmes and don't want to pay his salary. If that was happening someone would have done it by now. The Jays need to offer Pompey, Castro, Pentacost, Boyd and Urean. All but Boyd would jump into their top 10 prospects. Hoffman, Norris and Sanchez should be off limits. Adding them to Stroman and Hutchison will be the core rotation for many years. If the Phillies don't bite trade for a cheaper option Haren, Latos or Cueto. Stay the course and keep our top prospect and look to free agency next year to add a starter.

 

Why would they accept this?

[jaysblue]

When you draft and develop, you don't need to get lucky.

 

You think its easy to go out and draft players that turn out to become like Bautista and EE?

[RealAccountant]

^ I dont know. Since we gave away two top pitching prospects that right now look like could be front of the line pitchers for years to come, its hard to think otherwise. I remember the excitement around the Lansing 3, and to think that we may have kept the only non front line pitcher from there

[Jimcanuck]

You think its easy to go out and draft players that turn out to become like Bautista and EE?

 

No but if every year you draft a couple of elite hitting prospects (or sign them, such as Vlad Jr), it is probable every 3-5 years you will have a Bautista or EE - kinda like draft 10, hit the jackpot with 1. Jays used to have guys like Delgado, Kent, Bell, and others come up every 3-5 years.... has been pretty bare for the last 10.

[Smokey]

Pretty bare is an understatement considering that your only home-grown full-time position player is Kevin f***ing Pillar!

[Jimcanuck]

Pretty bare is an understatement considering that your only home-grown full-time position player is Kevin f***ing Pillar!

 

have to include Hech, Snider, Marisnick but yes very s*****.... its an indictment of JPR

[glory]

Cardinals just traded 4 years of control (Miller) for a free agent to be in Heyward

 

Considering the circumstances around why they needed a RF to begin with, I'll call that an exception and not a norm.

 

They usually build internally and make smart trades.

[BlueBirdBro]

So because Boyd had one good outing, suddenly everyone is counting him into the rotation factor? Most rookies always have decent first outings because nobody knows wtf to expect then they start getting shelled 3-4 starts in.

[GeorgiaPeach]

......Who knows when Edwin, Jose squared really start to slow down.

 

Why not deal one of Edwin or Jose before they do slow down, are getting paid a s*** ton of money and they're only being kept around to whet the appetite of fans to watch good Jays players retiring as Jays?

[Boxcar]

Why not deal one of Edwin or Jose before they do slow down, are getting paid a s*** ton of money and they're only being kept around to whet the appetite of fans to watch good Jays players retiring as Jays?

 

Because winning is important?