The trade that keeps on giving.....

[Praxis]

See link:

 

*** admin edit no spam

 

So in the three largest trades of AA's tenure, we've given up:

 

Florida: SS Adeiny Hechavarria, RHP Henderson Alvarez, LHP Justin Nicolino, CF Jake Marisnick and RHP Anthony DeSclafani

 

Mets: C Travis d’Arnaud, RHP Noah Syndergaard, OF Wuilmer Becerra

 

Oakland: 3B Brett Lawrie, RHP Kendall Graveman, LHP Sean Nolin and SS Franklin Barreto

 

 

This hurts.

[flafson]

So far the only real losses have been Henderson Alvarez and probably Noah Syndergaard.

[King]

The article posted in the OP doesn't add up with what he said in the post. Probably some dude advertising his article.

[Praxis]

You've listed 3 trades. Which is the one that keeps giving?

 

The article points to Wuilmer Becerra, so the Dickey trade. I was just factoring in the others for broad picture purposes.

[Dick_Pole]

See link:

 

So in the three largest trades of AA's tenure, we've given up:

 

Florida: SS Adeiny Hechavarria, RHP Henderson Alvarez, LHP Justin Nicolino, CF Jake Marisnick and RHP Anthony DeSclafani

 

Mets: C Travis d’Arnaud, RHP Noah Syndergaard, OF Wuilmer Becerra

 

Oakland: 3B Brett Lawrie, RHP Kendall Graveman, LHP Sean Nolin and SS Franklin Barreto

 

 

This hurts.

 

....and Josh Donaldson has the chance to out-WAR all of them, combined, over the next 4 years. With just one roster spot used and one pay check to sign.

[Boxcar]

Oh man, this whole time I thought giving up two top 50 prospects for a 40 year old trick pitcher who needs a personal babysitter to take a roster spot was a good idea. Thanks for clearing that up!

[dineke]

Stop advertising your blog posts from risingapehole.com.

[ScientificReason]

The article points to Wuilmer Becerra, so the Dickey trade. I was just factoring in the others for broad picture purposes.

 

Yet you never even included what we got in return, seems like you are purposely skewing things.

[NorthOf49]

I don't get it. Why does trading Wuilmer Becerra hurt you?

[Nafro]

You want things skewed, how about this. Jake Marisnick was flipped (with Colin Moran) for Jared Cosart. Anthony DeSclafani was flipped (with Chad Wallach) for Mat Latos.

 

I have hated the Dickey trade from the inception. We gave up what we had to for Donaldson. Though I think it will be too much long term, but that is often the case.

 

It comes down to the fact under AA, they have been incredible at talent evaluation and acquisition via draft, international signings. Unfortunately AA has not used it the best to acquire major league talent.

 

My least favourite trade to date is Yan Gomes for Esmil Rogers!

[NorthOf49]

You want things skewed, how about this. Jake Marisnick was flipped (with Colin Moran) for Jared Cosart. Anthony DeSclafani was flipped (with Chad Wallach) for Mat Latos.

 

I have hated the Dickey trade from the inception. We gave up what we had to for Donaldson. Though I think it will be too much long term, but that is often the case.

 

It comes down to the fact under AA, they have been incredible at talent evaluation and acquisition via draft, international signings. Unfortunately AA has not used it the best to acquire major league talent.

 

My least favourite trade to date is Yan Gomes for Esmil Rogers!

Mat Latos doesn't present much (if any) surplus value on his contract. Although if he does have a ~2 win year maybe the Marlins get a compensation draft pick. Jarred Cosart is kinda bad.

 

The Dickey trade was just too much, yeah. I'm still shocked they included Syndergaard.

[Angrioter]

You want things skewed, how about this. Jake Marisnick was flipped (with Colin Moran) for Jared Cosart. Anthony DeSclafani was flipped (with Chad Wallach) for Mat Latos.

 

I have hated the Dickey trade from the inception. We gave up what we had to for Donaldson. Though I think it will be too much long term, but that is often the case.

 

It comes down to the fact under AA, they have been incredible at talent evaluation and acquisition via draft, international signings. Unfortunately AA has not used it the best to acquire major league talent.

 

My least favourite trade to date is Yan Gomes for Esmil Rogers!

 

 

Latos for rental (He;s not that good) and Cozart can't get strikeouts.

[TwistedLogic]

See link:

 

 

So in the three largest trades of AA's tenure, we've given up:

 

Florida: SS Adeiny Hechavarria, RHP Henderson Alvarez, LHP Justin Nicolino, CF Jake Marisnick and RHP Anthony DeSclafani

 

Mets: C Travis d’Arnaud, RHP Noah Syndergaard, OF Wuilmer Becerra

 

Oakland: 3B Brett Lawrie, RHP Kendall Graveman, LHP Sean Nolin and SS Franklin Barreto

 

This hurts.

 

Meh. They got back Reyes (5.4 wins in the last two years, projected for 2.9 next year), Buehrle (6.2 last two, 1.5 projected), Dickey (5.3 last two, 1.9 projected) and Donaldson (14.1 last two, 5.6 projected). If all those guys hit their projections next year (you can even argue that those projections are pretty tame) the Jays will have scored 28.8 wins in three years from those three trades alone, and that's only counting Donaldson's first year. They've also sold an additional 900K tickets that they probably wouldn't have sold otherwise, and that "buzz" that was created in 2013 will probably still be paying dividends in 2015.

 

You tried to paint a s*** picture of the Jays from those three trades and, in all honesty, you were unsuccessful. While I agree that two of those moves were bad moves, poorly timed and poorly executed, there's been far more far worse deals in this game. From the standpoint of going all in, the Jays have gotten a lot more out of those trades than people are willing to give them credit for. They got what they paid for. If someone told you they could give you 30 wins in 3 years off the market at the cost of some of your future capital, that's a deal a lot of teams would make. A lot of teams have tried to make those deals, and come out a lot worse for it than the Jays did.

 

While Josh Johnson was a major bust for the Blue Jays, those trades still produced what look like four major components of their upcoming 2015 run, and they've done well to restock the farm and secure a strong future in the meantime. Putting it another way, Syndergaard would be a great piece to have right now, but the Jays development system at this point can afford to not have Syndergaard. If they got guys that contributed immediately and are still expected to contribute in the near future in exchange of that, I don't really mind it.

[Praxis]

Just to clarify, the article was not mine and I don't even know who the person was who wrote it. My only point was that Becerra was developing into more than many may have originally thought, making the Dickey trade even worse in hindsight.

 

As to whether or not we got value for all the trades, I can only look at our record and wages for the relevant time span:

 

2013 - 74-88, $126m, 5th in the division

2014 - 83-79, $137m, 3rd in the division

2015 - ??

[Stangstag]

Meh. They got back Reyes (5.4 wins in the last two years, projected for 2.9 next year), Buehrle (6.2 last two, 1.5 projected), Dickey (5.3 last two, 1.9 projected) and Donaldson (14.1 last two, 5.6 projected). If all those guys hit their projections next year (you can even argue that those projections are pretty tame) the Jays will have scored 28.8 wins in three years from those three trades alone, and that's only counting Donaldson's first year. They've also sold an additional 900K tickets that they probably wouldn't have sold otherwise, and that "buzz" that was created in 2013 will probably still be paying dividends in 2015.

 

You tried to paint a s*** picture of the Jays from those three trades and, in all honesty, you were unsuccessful. While I agree that two of those moves were bad moves, poorly timed and poorly executed, there's been far more far worse deals in this game. From the standpoint of going all in, the Jays have gotten a lot more out of those trades than people are willing to give them credit for. They got what they paid for. If someone told you they could give you 30 wins in 3 years off the market at the cost of some of your future capital, that's a deal a lot of teams would make. A lot of teams have tried to make those deals, and come out a lot worse for it than the Jays did.

 

While Josh Johnson was a major bust for the Blue Jays, those trades still produced what look like four major components of their upcoming 2015 run, and they've done well to restock the farm and secure a strong future in the meantime. Putting it another way, Syndergaard would be a great piece to have right now, but the Jays development system at this point can afford to not have Syndergaard. If they got guys that contributed immediately and are still expected to contribute in the near future in exchange of that, I don't really mind it.

 

/thread

[Zaun of the Dead]

Everyone talks about these trades but no one ever talks about how we traded yan gomes for esmil f***ing rogers

[TheHurl]

....and Josh Donaldson has the chance to out-WAR all of them, combined, over the next 4 years. With just one roster spot used and one pay check to sign.

 

I'll take that bet

[Dick_Pole]

Just to clarify, the article was not mine and I don't even know who the person was who wrote it. My only point was that Becerra was developing into more than many may have originally thought, making the Dickey trade even worse in hindsight.

 

As to whether or not we got value for all the trades, I can only look at our record and wages for the relevant time span:

 

2013 - 74-88, $126m, 5th in the division

2014 - 83-79, $137m, 3rd in the division

2015 - ??

 

You're several months too late to the party to play that card. Reference the Fire AA thread. It's amazing what the development of Stroman, Norris, some of the lower level prospects, a good draft and a great first few weeks of the off-season can do to change the tone of the fan base.

 

Despite AA's (possibly on Beeston's command) bad moves and glaring weaknesses, the team is still in pretty good shape this year and the next couple of years going forward.

[Dick_Pole]

I'll take that bet

 

Which side?

 

Obviously saying the output of one player is going to beat the output of twelve is the bold side of the deal. Even Michael Jordan would have a hard time winning a basketball game against a bunch of regular joes if the game is one on twelve.

[JFD]

nice thread idiot. hope you step on a nail.

[SaskJaysFan_2]

See link:

 

*** admin edit no spam

 

So in the three largest trades of AA's tenure, we've given up:

 

Florida: SS Adeiny Hechavarria, RHP Henderson Alvarez, LHP Justin Nicolino, CF Jake Marisnick and RHP Anthony DeSclafani

 

Mets: C Travis d’Arnaud, RHP Noah Syndergaard, OF Wuilmer Becerra

 

Oakland: 3B Brett Lawrie, RHP Kendall Graveman, LHP Sean Nolin and SS Franklin Barreto

 

 

This hurts.

 

You know what hurts? "Fans" who don't seem to think or realize that sometimes (well, most times) you have to give up value to get value, especially if you want established veterans. Would you rather GM_AA never make a f***ing trade? Jesus Christ. He's the guy that got rid of Vernon Wells AND picked up an all star 3B from BB.

[Praxis]

You know what hurts? "Fans" who don't seem to think or realize that sometimes (well, most times) you have to give up value to get value, especially if you want established veterans. Would you rather GM_AA never make a f***ing trade? Jesus Christ. He's the guy that got rid of Vernon Wells AND picked up an all star 3B from BB.

 

2010: 85-77, 4th in division, $86m payroll

2011: 81-81, 4th in division, $76m payroll

2012: 73-89, 4th in division, $103m payroll

2013: 74-88, 5th in division, $127m payroll

2014: 83-79, 3rd in division, $137m payroll

 

Give up value to get value. That's the key you see.

[Nightmaul]

2010: 85-77, 4th in division, $86m payroll

2011: 81-81, 4th in division, $76m payroll

2012: 73-89, 4th in division, $103m payroll

2013: 74-88, 5th in division, $127m payroll

2014: 83-79, 3rd in division, $137m payroll

 

Give up value to get value. That's the key you see.

 

I think it's time for a new account CHP

[closetjaysfan]

Everyone talks about these trades but no one ever talks about how we traded yan gomes for esmil f***ing rogers

 

The real question there is: Who broke our magic crystal ball in 2012?

 

At the time that looked like a sound trade. If I recall, we had need of pitching and an abundance of catching. No one thought Arancibia would be a bust... even the Rangers gambled on him after watching him swing and try to throw out runners from his knees. On top of that, at the time D'Arnaud was still on the rosterand Dickey had yet to be acquired. That trade is hard to blame on anybody.

[King]

I think it's time for a new account CHP

 

Joins January 2015, knows who CHP is

 

seems legit

[jaysfan2014]

Only Alvarez has been decent, and d'Arnaud to a lesser extent (if only his defense would improve.. can't just depend on pitch-framing. Jury's still out on Syndergaard, as he has yet to get out of AAA, and is still blocked by a deep Mets rotation.. when he could be used right to trade for a big bat that the Mets desperately need to contend, if he's not going to reach the majors in New York. And remember, Barreto is a long ways off, Nolin is not really a decent prospect, and Brett Lawrie has never been able to stay healthy in Toronto due to his hard play, which has resulted in various injuries. Graveman is difficult to call. And Nicolino, BTW, is in AA, but is now questionable as a prospect, as his K numbers plunged in 2014..

And Wuilmer Becerra isn't out of rookie ball yet.. he's too far off to project.

 

And regarding d'Arnaud, he's a great pitch framer, but his defense is Arencibia level bad(2013). It's going to have to improve or Kevin Plawecki will likely steal the starting job by mid-season, and d'Arnaud will likely be moved to the outfield(he does have a decent bat.)

[Jonzo]

nice thread idiot. hope you step on a nail.

 

For whatever reason I lol'd

[TheHurl]

Which side?

 

Obviously saying the output of one player is going to beat the output of twelve is the bold side of the deal. Even Michael Jordan would have a hard time winning a basketball game against a bunch of regular joes if the game is one on twelve.

 

I'll take two of them. TdA and Lawrie...including framing though. For the simplicity of things I'll make it an avatar wager and only this season (honestly I'm not even sure I like my side of this wager...which is why it's just an avatar wager) but you made a pretty bold statement and I was just pointing out that I think it's pretty incorrect.

[Dick_Pole]

I'll take two of them. TdA and Lawrie...including framing though. For the simplicity of things I'll make it an avatar wager and only this season (honestly I'm not even sure I like my side of this wager...which is why it's just an avatar wager) but you made a pretty bold statement and I was just pointing out that I think it's pretty incorrect.

 

lol what the hell did I just get myself into? I wasn't being 100% serious with my comment but if you want to track it just for kicks like how you describe it sounds like a plan.

[TheHurl]

lol what the hell did I just get myself into? I wasn't being 100% serious with my comment but if you want to track it just for kicks like how you describe it sounds like a plan.

 

You have to be careful what you say around here. I made one little comment to show how strongly I felt about some midget never being a closer and 4.5 years later there are still many that wait for the day that they can see my bouncing junk as I run naked around the Rogers Centre perimeter.