More Gibby Drama

[HERPDERP]

Gives us insight into the clubhouse

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/2014/12/12/blue_jays_werent_tightknit_group_manager_john_gibbons_says_dimanno.html

[TwistedLogic]

a) he said this weeks ago

who gives a flying f***?

[43211234]

This isn't Gibby drama. Gibby da best.

 

And the tight-knit group thing isn't news, he said that a month or more ago.

[Spanky99]

Teem kemistreez! LOL, there's no drama.

[Candy Maldonado]

What a nothing article.

[burlingtonbandit]

I love when all of this stuff comes out. A rod and Jeter worked just fine and they hated each other..Hell Tony Parker was banging his teammate's wife and they still won championships with the Spurs.. Baseball and Football are probably the 2 sports where chemistry really doesn't matter.

[TwistedLogic]

This past season, 20 teams missed the playoffs because they all had a terrible "clubhouse atmosphere". Two teams were then eliminated in wild card games because they were never actually good enough, fluked their way there, and shouldn't have been there to begin with. Six teams then lost in the division and pennant series because has confidence issues and can't "perform under pressure". And the Royals are great and all, but maybe they just "can't win the big one".

 

Everyone should learn from the Giants, who have a perfect clubhouse, full of hard-working, gritty, big game players that play the game the right way, show up when it matters, work as a single cohesive unit and can always be counted on... That is until they're traded away or leave via free agency, and then they're just some combination of fat, aging, inconsistent, injury-prone, selfish one year wonders.

[fireballW]

Oh no! They did not go out to dinner every night as a group of 25 each time? Latin players actually preferred hanging out with other Latinos? This sounds like a huge problem. I know at my work if I go talk to one person I always make sure to go talk to EVERYONE else just so we are a tight knit group. Having friends and getting along with some people more than each other really sounds terrible. Fire the manager.

[intentional wok]

What a nothing article.

 

I find the Star to be pretty much clickbait when it comes to sports.

[Deadpool]

"Count the backs turned to the room, players with their noggins stuck in their cubicles, checking email or texting or surfing web sites", so it's basically like going to dinner with any random group of 20 and 30 year olds?

[Jimcanuck]

Looks like media drama to me

[Key22]

This past season, 20 teams missed the playoffs because they all had a terrible "clubhouse atmosphere". Two teams were then eliminated in wild card games because they were never actually good enough, fluked their way there, and shouldn't have been there to begin with. Six teams then lost in the division and pennant series because has confidence issues and can't "perform under pressure". And the Royals are great and all, but maybe they just "can't win the big one".

 

Everyone should learn from the Giants, who have a perfect clubhouse, full of hard-working, gritty, big game players that play the game the right way, show up when it matters, work as a single cohesive unit and can always be counted on... That is until they're traded away or leave via free agency, and then they're just some combination of fat, aging, inconsistent, injury-prone, selfish one year wonders.

 

Awesome post - I see nothing twisted in your logic on these boards.

 

I listened to the "expert" babbling on Fan590 about Dickey not being a clubhouse guy and being an island unto himself blah blah - so what? So was Roy Halladay. I would say AA's plan of getting other teams clubhouse rejects didn't exactly work very well - yes you can get superior talent for a bit less cash but you still have to weigh how much of a drag they are in the room with what they put on the field. I think most athletes are competitive and want to win. With Lawrie's faults a desire to win wasn't one of things lacking in his make-up. Even Bautista's tirades at umpires, while annoying, is clearly drawn from a desire to win the game. Dave Steib was always flipping out at umps, the other team, his own teammates. I'll take that over the Alex Rios/Colby Rasmus types.

 

Chemistry in hockey is about knowing what you're teammate is going to do before they do - knowing how the goalie is going to play the puck on a dump in - knowing where your winger will be in XYZ situation. Baseball is far more individual. Is the payer purely about stacking their numbers OR will they deliberately hit the ball the other way to the second baseman to drive a run in. Will they realize the situation and stay at second to be driven home or will they selfishly try to steal 3rd with two outs because they have 19 on the year and some agent told them 20 is the magic number for a better contract in the off season.

 

The Jays have not upgraded on paper as a team overall (better D at the expense of offense perhaps) - so if that doesn't change - we'll see perhaps how much chemistry has an influence.

 

We landed Donaldson and Martin who are deemed leaders of their clubhouses along with Saunders (who only had trouble with their GM and it sounds like a small thing).

The Jays got rid of Rasmus (benched and La Russa utterly despised - didn't see anyone crying over Rasmus going or Yunel Escobar). Lind was deemed as soft.

 

Still more talent has left than what has been added. We lose a big hitting lefty DH, a 4 WAR CF when healthy, a number 2 hitter (the best ovrall perhaps last year in Melky) a young possibly top 5 3B when healthy in Lawrie with big defensive skills, a solid closer in CJ, a solid reliever in DM and two MLB ready relievers swing men in Graveman/Nolin and a solid 5th starter in Happ.

 

Overall - pretty big downgrade in on field talent. So we'll see about chemistry overcoming LOFT. We had the 25th worst bullpen ERA last year - nothing has been added to fix that - the pen is vastly WORSE than it was in September and it's asking a lot to believe that Sanchez (or Estrada) will be an upgrade to Happ.

[Candy Maldonado]

^ K....

[Angrioter]

This isn't Dominoes, Hockey, Basketball or sex, this is Baseball, a sport where the individual talent can win. I only care that pitchers have a good relationship with catchers.

 

Trout isn't a leader: 10 wins player

Jose Fernandez douchebag: 6 wins player

Adam Jones is arrogant: 4.5 wins player

Ryan Goins is bald: can't hit, he suxx

[Jimcanuck]

We had the 25th worst bullpen ERA last year - nothing has been added to fix that - the pen is vastly WORSE than it was in September and it's asking a lot to believe that Sanchez (or Estrada) will be an upgrade to Happ.

 

Sentiment is correct but not as bad as you state. But let's see what happens between now and April. There are more moves to come.

[Boxcar]

^ K....

 

Add superstars at 3B and C= no improvement.

[GD]

Navarro -> Martin is probably a 5 win swing, lol

[TwistedLogic]

The Jays have not upgraded on paper as a team overall (better D at the expense of offense perhaps) - so if that doesn't change - we'll see perhaps how much chemistry has an influence.

 

We landed Donaldson and Martin who are deemed leaders of their clubhouses along with Saunders (who only had trouble with their GM and it sounds like a small thing).

The Jays got rid of Rasmus (benched and La Russa utterly despised - didn't see anyone crying over Rasmus going or Yunel Escobar). Lind was deemed as soft.

 

Still more talent has left than what has been added. We lose a big hitting lefty DH, a 4 WAR CF when healthy, a number 2 hitter (the best ovrall perhaps last year in Melky) a young possibly top 5 3B when healthy in Lawrie with big defensive skills, a solid closer in CJ, a solid reliever in DM and two MLB ready relievers swing men in Graveman/Nolin and a solid 5th starter in Happ.

 

Overall - pretty big downgrade in on field talent. So we'll see about chemistry overcoming LOFT. We had the 25th worst bullpen ERA last year - nothing has been added to fix that - the pen is vastly WORSE than it was in September and it's asking a lot to believe that Sanchez (or Estrada) will be an upgrade to Happ.

 

http://i.gyazo.com/7b928d2c33e05320219b16ef3d437c13.png

 

In 2014, Colbuh Rasmus, Jay Happ, Adam Lind, Bredbull Lawrie, Melky Cabrera, Dinner Navarro, Casey Janssen and Dustin McGowan combined for 8.1 wins above replacement? Their optimistic 2015 projections predict 9.5 WAR.

 

In comparison, Josh Donaldson and Jussell Martin alone combined for 13.8 wins above replacement in 2015. Their pessimistic 2015 projections predict 11.1 WAR.

 

A

is a win is a

.

 

Even if Pompey sucks, Saunders has a season-ending injury on opening day and Estrada and Smoak remain replacement level scrubs, the 2015 Jays > 2014 Jays.

[Orgfiller]

The Jays have not upgraded on paper as a team overall (better D at the expense of offense perhaps) - so if that doesn't change - we'll see perhaps how much chemistry has an influence.

 

Still more talent has left than what has been added. We lose a big hitting lefty DH, a 4 WAR CF when healthy, a number 2 hitter (the best ovrall perhaps last year in Melky) a young possibly top 5 3B when healthy in Lawrie with big defensive skills, a solid closer in CJ, a solid reliever in DM and two MLB ready relievers swing men in Graveman/Nolin and a solid 5th starter in Happ.

 

Overall - pretty big downgrade in on field talent. So we'll see about chemistry overcoming LOFT. We had the 25th worst bullpen ERA last year - nothing has been added to fix that - the pen is vastly WORSE than it was in September and it's asking a lot to believe that Sanchez (or Estrada) will be an upgrade to Happ.

http://i.imgur.com/whYfFDU.gif

[intentional wok]

http://i.gyazo.com/7b928d2c33e05320219b16ef3d437c13.png

 

 

 

In 2014, Colbuh Rasmus, Jay Happ, Adam Lind, Bredbull Lawrie, Melky Cabrera, Dinner Navarro, Casey Janssen and Dustin McGowan combined for 8.1 wins above replacement? Their optimistic 2015 projections predict 9.5 WAR.

 

In comparison, Josh Donaldson and Jussell Martin alone combined for 13.8 wins above replacement in 2015. Their pessimistic 2015 projections predict 11.1 WAR.

 

A

is a win is a

.

 

Even if Pompey sucks, Saunders has a season-ending injury on opening day and Estrada and Smoak remain replacement level scrubs, the 2015 Jays > 2014 Jays.

 

Wow. I was skeptical myself on whether the shuffling created a more productive team, but there it is, I guess. This makes me pretty excited to see where all the saved money will be allocated.

[GD]

You can knock off a win or two for Navarro's framing which isn't included

[Jimcanuck]

So much dumb

 

The only part I can agree with is the bullpen and the rotation has been downgraded, but lots of time left before mid Feb

[Orgfiller]

The only part I can agree with is the bullpen and the rotation has been downgraded, but lots of time left before mid Feb

 

The rotation hasn't really been downgraded though, at the very least Estrada = Happ and Norris is better than both, we might have lost a bit of depth but it's not like we're lacking SP depth in the minors.

[Jimcanuck]

The rotation hasn't really been downgraded though, at the very least Estrada = Happ and Norris is better than both, we might have lost a bit of depth but it's not like we're lacking SP depth in the minors.

 

That's a very optimistic way of looking at it. Norris could also end up bouncing from the Show and AAA for the next 3 years. No one knows how Norris or Sanchez will do as starters, or how Estrada will fare in the ALE. If this is the all-in year, a rotation upgrade would be wise along with 1 or 2 relievers.

[Deadpool]

http://i.gyazo.com/7b928d2c33e05320219b16ef3d437c13.png

 

In 2014, Colbuh Rasmus, Jay Happ, Adam Lind, Bredbull Lawrie, Melky Cabrera, Dinner Navarro, Casey Janssen and Dustin McGowan combined for 8.1 wins above replacement? Their optimistic 2015 projections predict 9.5 WAR.

 

In comparison, Josh Donaldson and Jussell Martin alone combined for 13.8 wins above replacement in 2015. Their pessimistic 2015 projections predict 11.1 WAR.

 

A

is a win is a

.

 

Even if Pompey sucks, Saunders has a season-ending injury on opening day and Estrada and Smoak remain replacement level scrubs, the 2015 Jays > 2014 Jays.

 

The best part of this is the part where you already considered Navarro gone from the WAR total, even though he's still on the team (unless I missed news tonight).

[Orgfiller]

The best part of this is the part where you already considered Navarro gone from the WAR total, even though he's still on the team (unless I missed news tonight).

 

I might be missing a joke here, but Navarro is basically negligible in WAR calculations if you factor in framing.

[Deadpool]

I might be missing a joke here, but Navarro is basically negligible in WAR calculations if you factor in framing.

 

You're not missing a joke... It was just funny to me that he listed a bunch of players that were no longer on the team, and Navarro was one of them.

[TwistedLogic]

You can knock off a win or two for Navarro's framing which isn't included

 

I did. Navarro had 2.0 fWAR last season, and taking into account his -13.8 framing runs (a cost of 1.53 fWAR at 9 runs per win), he falls down to a 0.47.

 

Rasmus (0.6) + Happ (1.3) + Lind (1.6) + Lawrie (1.7) + Cabrera (2.6) + Janssen (0.1) + McGowan (-0.2) + Navarro (2.0) + Navarro's -13.8 framing runs (-1.53) = 8.17 WAR

 

Donaldson (6.4) + Saunders (1.9) + Martin (5.3) + Martin's 19.3 framing runs (2.14) = 15.74 WAR

[Boxcar]

Do framing wins not manifest themselves in the pitcher stats? Seems like double counting.

[TwistedLogic]

Do framing wins not manifest themselves in the pitcher stats? Seems like double counting.

 

We didn't acquire any of Martin's pitchers.

 

And of the guys I mentioned in my post, only three were pitchers (Janssen, Happ, McGowan), who only threw a little more than a quarter of the Jays total non-Dickey innings (285 of 1227).

 

Even if you assume Navarro caught the entirety of the innings pitched by those guys, and give him back the value already accounted for with them, it wouldn't really push the needle much.