d'Arnaud or Navarro, who would you rather have for this season?

[immature]

Travis d’Arnaud-

93 GP .243/.306/.412 wRC+106 WAR 1.5 (1.7 OFF, 0.7 DEF)

 

Dioner Navarro

123 GP .280/.322/.407 wRC+102 WAR 1.9 (-1.9OFF, 4.7 DEF)

 

d’Arnaud is tied for the lead league in PB with 12 which accounts in large part for his low defensive WAR numbers.

 

However he is known for being a great framer which is not included in the WAR calculation while we all know what kind of framer Navarro is and the framing statistics lean much in the favor of d’Arnaud. He has +82 calls for the season and an RAA of 10.9 while Navarro has -121 calls (1.36 per game) and a RAA of -16.1 which is good for fourth last in the MLB.

 

Who would you rather of had for this year? Notwithstanding framing, they have had a very similar season according to the advanced stats. But with framing included, I think it’s safe to say d’Arnaud is the better player for the year.

[eastcoastjaysfan]

High upside, young, cost controlled catcher vs fat, useless defensive catcher who has tricked the casuals into thinking he's good because of dem rbi'z.

 

Tough call.

[immature]

Its an easy call for the future, but somewhat debatable when looking at just this years stats exclusively and not including salary.

[jays4life19]

Travis d’Arnaud-

93 GP .243/.306/.412 wRC+106 WAR 1.5 (1.7 OFF, 0.7 DEF)

 

Dioner Navarro

123 GP .280/.322/.407 wRC+102 WAR 1.9 (-1.9OFF, 4.7 DEF)

 

d’Arnaud is tied for the lead league in PB with 12 which accounts in large part for his low defensive WAR numbers.

 

However he is known for being a great framer which is not included in the WAR calculation while we all know what kind of framer Navarro is and the framing statistics lean much in the favor of d’Arnaud. He has +82 calls for the season and an RAA of 10.9 while Navarro has -121 calls (1.36 per game) and a RAA of -16.1 which is good for fourth last in the MLB.

 

Who would you rather of had for this year? Notwithstanding framing, they have had a very similar season according to the advanced stats. But with framing included, I think it’s safe to say d’Arnaud is the better player for the year.

 

I think you answered your own question. Also....Travis made less $$.

[Atothe]

Its an easy call for the future, but somewhat debatable when looking at just this years stats exclusively and not including salary.

 

no it isn't, factor in framing and the fact that he played less games. Its not close

[jays4life19]

no it isn't, factor in framing and the fact that he played less games. Its not close

 

He did say "I think it’s safe to say d’Arnaud is the better player for the year." to be fair.

[Atothe]

He did say "I think it’s safe to say d’Arnaud is the better player for the year." to be fair.

 

Its an easy call for the future, but somewhat debatable when looking at just this years stats exclusively and not including salary.

 

then that, not debatable

[GD]

Disregarding the familiarity contempt and grass is greener stuff, TDA has been pretty easily better even this year.

[burlingtonbandit]

If you are going to ask a dumb question like this in which you answered it yourself, why not put it in the Around Baseball Thread?

[Key22]

The word in New York is that Travis is unlikely to stick at catcher and they are considering a move to LF due to his history of concussions. His numbers as a left fielder if they do move him to LF would have to see an adjustment. How good is his offense if LF becomes his position?

 

Navarro is a guy you'd like as a solid back up catcher. Trouble is the Jays have a lot of guys who are good back up type players - unfortunately we have them as regulars. And no soup (err playoffs) for us as a result.

[immature]

If you are going to ask a dumb question like this in which you answered it yourself, why not put it in the Around Baseball Thread?

 

I don't think a new thread has been posted all day. And the the last 2 threads have been reyes 16 errors.. and melk man wants to stay in Toronto but in reality he just had a standard response... Sometimes threads are not mind blowing interesting or detail new information, who cares.

 

The fact that d'Arnaud was traded by the jays and how his numbers were so close to Navarro's notwithstanding framing I felt it warranted a thread.

[jays4life19]

I don't think a new thread has been posted all day. And the the last 2 threads have been reyes 16 errors.. and melk man wants to stay in Toronto but in reality he just had a standard response... Sometimes threads are not mind blowing interesting or detail new information, who cares.

 

The fact that d'Arnaud was traded by the jays and how his numbers were so close to Navarro's notwithstanding framing I felt it warranted a thread.

 

It's all good man. As you said, Travis has easily been the better player. If you had posted the same post on the old forum it probably would have created a lot of discussion.

[immature]

If you had posted the same post on the old forum it probably would have created a lot of discussion. lol At least your criticism is subtle.

[jays4life19]

If you had posted the same post on the old forum it probably would have created a lot of discussion. lol At least your criticism is subtle.

 

It was a shot at the old forum. Not you.

[GNick49]

At 3m Navarro's salary not really a factor. TDA is also injury prone and playing on turf would likely be a problem. As happens often here. Surprised to see TDA hit 13HR in little over half a season though.

[jaysfan2014]

Navarro. d'Arnaud's likely headed for the OF once Plawecki reaches the majors to protect him from concussions, negating any value he had at C.

 

d'Arnaud if you regard pitch framing.. but his value is hurt by the 12 PB caused by trying to frame pitches for strikes. A -0.8dWAR doesn't help.

 

By WAR, Navarro wins with a 2.0 WAR (2.1 oWAR, 0.4 dWAR) over d'Arnaud's 0.4 WAR (1.9 oWAR, -0.8dWAR) Just because the catcher is a good pitch framer doesn't mean he's good.. look at JP Arencibia. They have to at least hit a little bit and not kill the team with frequent K's and PBs.

[immature]

Where did you get those WAR stats, they seem to reflect the players results better. I was using Fangraphs columns of OFF and DEF before the final column of WAR.

[Statman]

d`Arnaud is garbage. Navarro on the other hand can be an everyday player as a serviceable DH and 2nd catcher.

 

The Jays need Russell Martin BAD!

[Key22]

All the money needs to be put to starting pitchers as close to number 1s as is humanly possible. And land a full time 2B.

 

Navarro is "good enough" to win with if you don't have huge gaping holes at other key positions. A solid catcher a solid second baseman - don;t have to be all stars - average defense and average bat is fine if you have a Roy Halladay, Roger Clemense, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux in their prime on the mound. On good days those guys could win with a little league team behind them. When you give up 8 runs a LOT then blaming the catcher's pitch framing or Reyes who averages 1 error every 15 games is placing blame where it doesn't much matter. We have no top of the rotation starters.

[Stangstag]

You guys are all f***ing retarded if you would rather have d'Arnaud over Navarro this year. For the future, I would obviously choose d'Arnaud BUT I don't think he will stick as a catcher.

[GD]

michaeljacksonpopcorn.gif

[jaysfan2014]

Where did you get those WAR stats, they seem to reflect the players results better. I was using Fangraphs columns of OFF and DEF before the final column of WAR.

 

Baseball Reference.

[jaysfan2014]

This piece in the Wall Street Journal isn't exactly saying good things about d'Arnaud's defense.. he should focus on catching the ball and not just framing.

 

http://online.wsj.com/articles/n-y-mets-defense-a-flaw-in-travis-darnauds-game-1409790675

 

Sure, it helps the pitchers get strikes, but the PBs can really hurt with runners on base.

[GD]

Baseball Reference.

 

Stop

[GD]

Fail.

 

Lol @ you thinking I meant that as a link

[Orgfiller]

Fail.

 

Wat

[GD]

LoL @ you for doing that on purpose.

 

Lol @ you covering your ass and now trying to make this a discussion at 11:41 PM

Lol @ you

Lol @ #Lovethisforum

Lol @ life

it's time for bed

[burlingtonbandit]

This piece in the Wall Street Journal isn't exactly saying good things about d'Arnaud's defense.. he should focus on catching the ball and not just framing.

 

http://online.wsj.com/articles/n-y-mets-defense-a-flaw-in-travis-darnauds-game-1409790675

 

Sure, it helps the pitchers get strikes, but the PBs can really hurt with runners on base.

 

3 Strikes that are actually balls with a runner on base is better than 1 PB that allows a runner to advance a base. There are stats that tell you what is more valuable btw...So you can save your time instead of looking for stories about PB on WSJ

[North of 60]

This is not even close when you include framing.

 

We all know all about framing after the Kratz trade.

[burlingtonbandit]

Lol was anyone from the board on with Mike Wilner tonight? Someone was advocating Russ Martin and brought up framing.. Starts right around the 13:30 mark.

 

http://pmd.fan590.com/podcasts/blue_jays_this_week/bjtw_20140907_000407--BlueJaysTalkThis-Week---September-7---Saturday-.mp3

 

Also if you want a laugh go to the 36:30 mark and listen to Wilner tee off on the caller.