Offseason roster thread 2014

[glory]

Gose is better than some give him credit for, but that was a no brainer trade if I've ever seen one.

 

Travis is projected to have a 96 wRC+ without setting foot in AAA yet and fills a huge organizational need. You make that trade 10 times out of 10, even though I think Gose is capable of a 2 WAR with his defense and speed.

[TwistedLogic]

Gose has 27% k rate and .318 babip the regression is coming when you can't put the ball in play. Also you can't play Gose against lefties. Travis has equal splits in the minors and is an everyday player. The only hope for Gose is if he cuts his swing down which he doesn't seem to want to do.

 

Who cares, Gose's job is not to hit the ball, it's to field it. And what do you mean the regression is coming? He had a .279 wOBA last year. What exactly do you expect to see regress? His defense will regress because of his K rate and BABIP?

 

Everyone's always talking about how if Goins had even a shadow of a bat, he'd be a 2-win player. Well that's Gose right now.

 

I've loved the trade since it happened, and I'm a big believer in Travis, but that's all that is right now: belief. Gose has a garbage bat, but he's a serviceable major league bench guy right now. Saying Gose is "garbage" or pretending that the Jays outright robbed the Tigers is nothing more than blind, disingenuous homerism.

 

Everybody loved Rajai as a fourth OF, and he's made a 9 year career out of a lesser skillset than what Gose has.

[baubau]

IMO the Travis trade is a wash and the bottom 4 are unlikely to yield much of anything, but yeah, this offseason has been amazing.

 

What about the trade makes it a wash for you?

[TwistedLogic]

What about the trade makes it a wash for you?

 

Probably that the Jays swapped mediocrity with inexperience and both teams filled a need while dishing from a position of strength? Nobody's debating that Travis can be more valuable than Gose in the very near future, especially to the Jays, but Gose is just not as bad as people think he is. Gose isn't useless and Travis isn't blue chip. It was a good trade. I don't agree that it was a wash, I do think that the Jays "won" in the sense that they got back slightly more than they gave up and covered a very obvious hole, but I don't think it was highway robbery.

 

Steamer's incredibly optimistic projections have Travis at 2.3 fWAR next year over a very generous 550 PAs. Gose gave us 1.3 wins in 274 PA's this past season. That's a 2.6 win pace over 550 PAs.

 

Until Travis gets up here and tears the world apart, there really isn't nearly the gap in value between the two players that you guys wish there was.

[Frenchsoup]

Who cares, Gose's job is not to hit the ball, it's to field it. And what do you mean the regression is coming? He had a .279 wOBA last year. What exactly do you expect to see regress? His defense will regress because of his K rate and BABIP?

 

Everyone's always talking about how if Goins had even a shadow of a bat, he'd be a 2-win player. Well that's Gose right now.

 

I've loved the trade since it happened, and I'm a big believer in Travis, but that's all that is right now: belief. Gose has a garbage bat, but he's a serviceable major league bench guy right now. Saying Gose is "garbage" or pretending that the Jays outright robbed the Tigers is nothing more than blind, disingenuous homerism.

 

Everybody loved Rajai as a fourth OF, and he's made a 9 year career out of a lesser skillset than what Gose has.

 

I hated Rajai as a 4th outfielder and wouldn't want him at league min. But saying that he's ok if u stick him in lf against righties but you can never ever EVER play him in cf. Gose's value is all from D and base running which is fine. I just think where he's trending his offensive numbers are not going to be pretty and his overall war will be close to replacement.

[KingKat]

I hated Rajai as a 4th outfielder and wouldn't want him at league min.

 

Wow.

[TwistedLogic]

I hated Rajai as a 4th outfielder and wouldn't want him at league min. But saying that he's ok if u stick him in lf against righties but you can never ever EVER play him in cf. Gose's value is all from D and base running which is fine. I just think where he's trending his offensive numbers are not going to be pretty and his overall war will be close to replacement.

 

There really isn't any reason to believe that he can't have a career more successful than Davis -- his bat is just as bad, his speed is just as incredible, and he's got monumentally better defense. These kind of players are horrific if you misuse them, and they can be incredibly valuable if used correctly. Think Erik Kratz.

 

Gose fills a specific niche. The Jays at the time had Pompey, Pillar, Dirks and Mayberry, so they had no use for him, which is why the trade was a smart one to make, but that doesn't automatically mean that he has no value.

Edited January 22, 2015 by TwistedLogic

[Frenchsoup]

Wow.

 

He's a 4th outfielder who can't hit righties, can't play cf competently and the bat doesn't compensate those negatives.

[KingKat]

He's a 4th outfielder who can't hit righties, can't play cf competently and the bat doesn't compensate those negatives.

 

And you wouldn't even pay him league minimum... Look I get that you don't like him and don't like his skill set but that bias doesn't negate the fact that he produces value and that his value increases if he's only taking up league minimum. I really can't see how you came come to your conclusion unless you're a) just being a contrarian or value your own bias/opinion more than facts.

[ElNik2013]

The way I look at the Gose-for-Travis trade is this:

 

Gose + 4-headed-monster at 2B or Pompey + Travis?

[TwistedLogic]

He's a 4th outfielder who can't hit righties, can't play cf competently and the bat doesn't compensate those negatives.

 

Listing Rajai Davis' tools and not mentioning his speed, lol'd.

 

You can play him in the line-up every single time you face a lefty, and he can eventually come in as a pinch runner/pinch hitter everytime you face a right-handed starter.

 

Yes, in that kind of a set-up, he very much would compensate for his poor defense, which should not actually ever take place in CF.

 

The way I look at the Gose-for-Travis trade is this:

 

Gose + 4-headed-monster at 2B or Pompey + Travis?

 

Outside of the context of the Jays specific roster, the trade in itself was closer to a wash than it was to an outright steal.

[Frenchsoup]

And you wouldn't even pay him league minimum... Look I get that you don't like him and don't like his skill set but that bias doesn't negate the fact that he produces value and that his value increases if he's only taking up league minimum. I really can't see how you came come to your conclusion unless you're a) just being a contrarian or value your own bias/opinion more than facts.

 

If you carry 5 outfielders sure I would roster him, but you can't really. His skillset doesn't fit well on a 25 man roster imo.

[ElNik2013]

Outside of the context of the Jays specific roster, the trade in itself was closer to a wash than it was to an outright steal.

 

 

 

 

I agree and didn't mean to imply otherwise, if I did.

 

 

 

I like Gose and think he still has some upside but just his D and speed give him a nice floor. I'd be fine with having kept Gose if AA had been able to find a fix to the 2B problem.

[King]

Who was the guy who tried to argue Gose wasn't fast? Jonn?

[Frenchsoup]

Listing Rajai Davis' tools and not mentioning his speed, lol'd.

 

You can play him in the line-up every single time you face a lefty, and he can eventually come in as a pinch runner/pinch hitter everytime you face a right-handed starter.

 

Yes, in that kind of a set-up, he very much would compensate for his poor defense, which should not actually ever take place in CF.

 

 

Yes you can just play him against lefties, but then he loses base running value because it's harder to steal off lefties generally... his overall player profile is just irritating to me but enough of Mr.Davis amd Mr.Gose we got Devon Travis a True Jay.

[KingKat]

If you carry 5 outfielders sure I would roster him, but you can't really. His skillset doesn't fit well on a 25 man roster imo.

 

If you're so concerned about his CF defense, you can just carry a Dewayne Wise type in AAA for whenever you need more than a spot replacement.

[Frenchsoup]

If you're so concerned about his CF defense, you can just carry a Dewayne Wise type in AAA for whenever you need more than a spot replacement.

 

Nah ill just roster a Pillar and kill 2 birds with one stone

[BTS]

Anthony Gose is less than 5 months older than Devon Travis and has proven that he has the skill set to contribute at the major league level while Travis hasn't left AA. I like Travis as a prospect, but it's far from guaranteed that he has the better career. I'm not even saying I don't like the trade - I think it's a fair deal. Jarrod Dyson has put up 8 wins in less than 1000 PA with a very similar skill set to Gose's.

[Orgfiller]

^ I like the above Dyson comparison. At this point Gose is purely a speed and glove guy. I think people are really underrating Davis' usefulness versus left-handed pitching, the guy owns a career 120 wRC+ in over 1000 PA's vs. lefties, also he apparently has 15 PA's as a left-handed hitter, wat. Gose is the ideal 4th OF, it would be nice if he could at least be league average against RHP but you take him for what he is. The trade wasn't a steal because Gose has proven that he has the skillset to belong on the MLB roster, the Jays are taking a risk on an unproven prospect with the hope that he becomes a decent starting 2B, while the Tigers recently lost Austin Jackson and have Kinsler at second. Fair deal for both parties.

[GD]

Just to get super semantic, I'd call it a win win rather than a wash, cause it's likely that both the Tigers and Blue Jays added wins, probably a near-equal amount, in the deal, when you look at who both teams had at the positions like Orgfiller did.

[Angrioter]

Jon Heyman ‏

everth cabrera could become a 2b consideration for jays. weeks seems to be further down their list.

[glory]

Eh, he's better than Goins and Izturis. If he comes cheap, go for it. Just don't expect a long-term solution. Dude looks like a headcase with his history.

[TwistedLogic]

As I said a month ago, I'd loveeeee if they took a flyer on Weeks. Defense is bad, but there's a monster in that bat. Four 124 wRC+ seasons in the last six. Perfect stop-gap option that you can probably re-up if Travis busts.

 

And Everth Cabrera can go f*** himself.

[Sammy225]

As I said a month ago, I'd loveeeee if they took a flyer on Weeks. Defense is bad, but there's a monster in that bat. Four 124 wRC+ seasons in the last six. Perfect stop-gap option that you can probably re-up if Travis busts.

 

And Everth Cabrera can go f*** himself.

 

Either are less than perfect but i think with Everth you can have a steady d guy with a possibility of a .320-.340 OBP which is better than recent years lol

 

Weeks is just a butcher with the glove and that turns me off.

[TwistedLogic]

Either are less than perfect but i think with Everth you can have a steady d guy with a possibility of a .320-.340 OBP which is better than recent years lol

 

Weeks is just a butcher with the glove and that turns me off.

 

Except Weeks was decent last year, where as Cabrera was garbage. Cabrera wasn't even good defensively in 2014; he's shown absolutely nothing since the PED suspension. Add that to the fact that he's a head case, a pain in the ass and a media disaster and he has no appeal to me, and I'd be surprised if the Jays would consider him for anything more than a minor league deal.

[LongTimeReader]

Eh, he's better than Goins and Izturis. If he comes cheap, go for it. Just don't expect a long-term solution. Dude looks like a headcase with his history.

 

I'm not even sure he is better......... he looks like a one year wonder to me

[LongTimeReader]

As I said a month ago, I'd loveeeee if they took a flyer on Weeks. Defense is bad, but there's a monster in that bat. Four 124 wRC+ seasons in the last six. Perfect stop-gap option that you can probably re-up if Travis busts.

 

And Everth Cabrera can go f*** himself.

 

No thanks, I'll take defense over offense

[TwistedLogic]

No thanks, I'll take defense over offense

 

Who's defense? Goins? lol

[baubau]

No thanks, I'll take defense over offense

 

Its not as if the Jays were getting much defensively out of 2nd base recently. Plus, as been stated and proved in this forum, Goin's defense does not outweigh his offense in the lineup. Might as well find the bat to plug into that black hole at the bottom of our lineup.

[LongTimeReader]

I don't want Weeks or Goins, just to be clear. One is garbage offensively, one is garbage defensively, neither is a really good option.