If the Jays did blow it up - what could we get and how...

Key22 · May 4, 2014

long would it take.

Not to be too doom and gloom but given the contracts, the ages of the guys, the injuries and lack of performance if the Jays decided to go on a massive overhaul could they not in theory go on a trading spree and invigorate the farm with a staggering amount of talent?

So realistically what "general" players can we get if we blew it up.

Beurhle - teams know what they will get - a very solid number 3 (sometimes 2) starter - but with one more year at $19million.

(2 upside prospects? Say One prospect in the 70-200 best list and one upside high ceiling A prospect?)

RA Dickey - will probably rebound to something similar to last year's form. Contract isn't too bad. NL team might be more interested (pull the ole 1 for 1 like Marcum for Lawrie?)

Jose Bautista - good contract can help any team. 3-4 upper tier prospects - (1 top 50, 1 bottom 50, 1 or 2 high ceiling single a prospects)

Edwin Encarnacion - good contract can help most any team. 3-4 upper tier prospects - (1 top 50, 1 bottom 50, 1 or 2 high ceiling single a prospects)

Jose Reyes - to Yankees. Big contract - trade to division rival - 1-2 upper tier prospects - (1 bottom 50 (Or Yankee top 10), 1 high ceiling single a prospect)

Adam Lind - decent contract - no long term impact. Can be a bench hitter for a playoff club in the NL (1 medium/high ceiling single A prospect)

Melky Cabrera - Having a huge season currently with a .914OPS and is 29 but in a contract year. (1 top 50 prospect, one bottom 50 prospect). Looks like a body that will break down to me and isn't a great fielder - but the numbers look good. He is probably at maximum value.

Colby Rasmus Overall upper tier CF who will command money - not sure I want to build a team around a yokel hick. Should be able to garner one 50-100 prospect and one 100-200 prospect.

This should net us roughly 14 well above average minor league talents and a few ceiling guys on top.

The Jays after the trade deadline would have a rotation of:

Hutchison

Happ

McGowan

Stroman

Ryan Rowland-Smith/Jenkins/Rogers/Redmond (spot starters and long men.

SS - Diaz/Kawasaki

2B - Tolleson/Goins/Getz/(Izturas will come back)

3B - Lawrie

1B - Dan Johnson/Juan Francisco

C - Navarro/Kratz/Thole

CF - Gose

LF - Kevin Pillar

RF - Mastroianni

Some of the prospects we trade for may be able to be slotted in to replace this lot. Salary back to very low - infuse the team with a truck load of talent and free up $115+ million in payroll. We'd stink it up this year but we'd have 15-17 guys infused in our farm system - then with $115 million+ we could fill in the gaps with 1-2 year contract year types to field a somewhat plausible team. With all the money we're spending we're still pathetic so we may as well be pathetic with young talent on the way and on the cusp.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Key22

GeorgiaPeach · May 4, 2014

long would it take.

Not to be too doom and gloom but given the contracts, the ages of the guys, the injuries and lack of performance if the Jays decided to go on a massive overhaul could they not in theory go on a trading spree and invigorate the farm with a staggering amount of talent?

So realistically what "general" players can we get if we blew it up.

Beurhle - teams know what they will get - a very solid number 3 (sometimes 2) starter - but with one more year at $19million.
(2 upside prospects? Say One prospect in the 70-200 best list and one upside high ceiling A prospect?)

RA Dickey - will probably rebound to something similar to last year's form. Contract isn't too bad. NL team might be more interested (pull the ole 1 for 1 like Marcum for Lawrie?)

Jose Bautista - good contract can help any team. 3-4 upper tier prospects - (1 top 50, 1 bottom 50, 1 or 2 high ceiling single a prospects)

Edwin Encarnacion - good contract can help most any team. 3-4 upper tier prospects - (1 top 50, 1 bottom 50, 1 or 2 high ceiling single a prospects)

Jose Reyes - to Yankees. Big contract - trade to division rival - 1-2 upper tier prospects - (1 bottom 50 (Or Yankee top 10), 1 high ceiling single a prospect)

Adam Lind - decent contract - no long term impact. Can be a bench hitter for a playoff club in the NL (1 medium/high ceiling single A prospect)

Melky Cabrera - Having a huge season currently with a .914OPS and is 29 but in a contract year. (1 top 50 prospect, one bottom 50 prospect). Looks like a body that will break down to me and isn't a great fielder - but the numbers look good. He is probably at maximum value.

Colby Rasmus Overall upper tier CF who will command money - not sure I want to build a team around a yokel hick. Should be able to garner one 50-100 prospect and one 100-200 prospect.

This should net us roughly 14 well above average minor league talents and a few ceiling guys on top.

The Jays after the trade deadline would have a rotation of:

Hutchison
Happ
McGowan
Stroman
Ryan Rowland-Smith/Jenkins/Rogers/Redmond (spot starters and long men.

SS - Diaz/Kawasaki
2B - Tolleson/Goins/Getz/(Izturas will come back)
3B - Lawrie
1B - Dan Johnson/Juan Francisco
C - Navarro/Kratz/Thole
CF - Gose
LF - Kevin Pillar
RF - Mastroianni

Some of the prospects we trade for may be able to be slotted in to replace this lot. Salary back to very low - infuse the team with a truck load of talent and free up $115+ million in payroll. We'd stink it up this year but we'd have 15-17 guys infused in our farm system - then with $115 million+ we could fill in the gaps with 1-2 year contract year types to field a somewhat plausible team. With all the money we're spending we're still pathetic so we may as well be pathetic with young talent on the way and on the cusp.

I honestly would prefer to watch the stripped down team you list, knowing there's young kids dripping with potential who can be slotted in shortly, as you said. I already know the team isn't making the playoffs with what we have now. So why not enjoy watching young kids lose, but lose knowing there's big potential down the line. And if they do well, they're here for 4+ years on the cheap. And if a kid fails or doesn't live up to expectations.....it's a cheap cost lost.

Jimcanuck · May 4, 2014

long would it take.

Not to be too doom and gloom but given the contracts, the ages of the guys, the injuries and lack of performance if the Jays decided to go on a massive overhaul could they not in theory go on a trading spree and invigorate the farm with a staggering amount of talent?

So realistically what "general" players can we get if we blew it up.

Beurhle - teams know what they will get - a very solid number 3 (sometimes 2) starter - but with one more year at $19million.
(2 upside prospects? Say One prospect in the 70-200 best list and one upside high ceiling A prospect?)

RA Dickey - will probably rebound to something similar to last year's form. Contract isn't too bad. NL team might be more interested (pull the ole 1 for 1 like Marcum for Lawrie?)

Jose Bautista - good contract can help any team. 3-4 upper tier prospects - (1 top 50, 1 bottom 50, 1 or 2 high ceiling single a prospects)

Edwin Encarnacion - good contract can help most any team. 3-4 upper tier prospects - (1 top 50, 1 bottom 50, 1 or 2 high ceiling single a prospects)

Jose Reyes - to Yankees. Big contract - trade to division rival - 1-2 upper tier prospects - (1 bottom 50 (Or Yankee top 10), 1 high ceiling single a prospect)

Adam Lind - decent contract - no long term impact. Can be a bench hitter for a playoff club in the NL (1 medium/high ceiling single A prospect)

Melky Cabrera - Having a huge season currently with a .914OPS and is 29 but in a contract year. (1 top 50 prospect, one bottom 50 prospect). Looks like a body that will break down to me and isn't a great fielder - but the numbers look good. He is probably at maximum value.

Colby Rasmus Overall upper tier CF who will command money - not sure I want to build a team around a yokel hick. Should be able to garner one 50-100 prospect and one 100-200 prospect.

This should net us roughly 14 well above average minor league talents and a few ceiling guys on top.

The Jays after the trade deadline would have a rotation of:

Hutchison
Happ
McGowan
Stroman
Ryan Rowland-Smith/Jenkins/Rogers/Redmond (spot starters and long men.

SS - Diaz/Kawasaki
2B - Tolleson/Goins/Getz/(Izturas will come back)
3B - Lawrie
1B - Dan Johnson/Juan Francisco
C - Navarro/Kratz/Thole
CF - Gose
LF - Kevin Pillar
RF - Mastroianni

Some of the prospects we trade for may be able to be slotted in to replace this lot. Salary back to very low - infuse the team with a truck load of talent and free up $115+ million in payroll. We'd stink it up this year but we'd have 15-17 guys infused in our farm system - then with $115 million+ we could fill in the gaps with 1-2 year contract year types to field a somewhat plausible team. With all the money we're spending we're still pathetic so we may as well be pathetic with young talent on the way and on the cusp.

Heavy overestimate on the prospects you will get back. But I don't care, for this team to have a chance, this has to happen. There will be 2-3 years of suckage after, before ending up with a young team like Washington's

Key22 · May 4, 2014

I honestly would prefer to watch the stripped down team you list, knowing there's young kids dripping with potential who can be slotted in shortly, as you said. I already know the team isn't making the playoffs with what we have now. So why not enjoy watching young kids lose, but lose knowing there's big potential down the line. And if they do well, they're here for 4+ years on the cheap. And if a kid fails or doesn't live up to expectations.....it's a cheap cost lost.

You're right and I hadn't considered that. If a cheap guy fails or gets hurt it seems less of an impact. When $7million Romeros flop it takes a toll on the payroll. The problem with Jay's management is that they're always playing in this quasi middle of the road Twilight Zone. They have solid money to spend but it's not "big enough" money to be able to recover from anyone who goes down. If Tanaka's finger blew up the Yankees one day later could make a trade for Kershaw (theoretically). In other words they could immediately go out and take on a $300 million contract without a second thought. The Jays are not in that situation.

But because they're not broke like Tampa they also don't seem to be forced to "think" and work on the farm system. Farrel noted that a big problem in Toronto is player development - we may draft well but that's worthless when no one of real impact comes up here.

The reality is we're going to finish fourth or last - I am betting on last without Morrow in the Rotation and the pen being an utter cesspool. Notice I didn't put any RPs on the list. If we're going to finish last anyway - why not finish a bit further last and collect the 1st overall draft pick? So we'd get a whole bunch of young talent and an elite slot in the draft. Plus $115 million going into the off-season can plug a lot of holes - just get decent solid guys .260 18 homer types - nothing overly expensive - an Oakland A's model of sorts.

BigBounceyBlueBalls · May 4, 2014

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Originally Posted by Angrioter

Reyes doesn't guarantee 130 games per season. Every time Reyes runs the bases I close my eyes.

Franklin + Miller + Walker + Gabriel Guerrero + D for Reyes + Buehrle + Rasmus

If we are talking trade with seattle I am going Bautista,Lind and Happ to get the ball rolling! Return of Walker+Franklin+Romero+Pike and one of Marte or Taylor .

If they ask about Reyes to be added to the deal ask for both Marte and Taylor and add Gohara to the trade as well.

If money becomes a issue offer to take Corey Hart saving them 6 mil and because it makes me giggle!

If no changes made to the deal as is I would be willing to add money up to 16.4 million which would only add about 20 mill to their payroll.

Because I am nice they can have any two bullpen arms, but no extra money!

Last edited by BigBounceyBlueBalls; Yesterday at 11:07 AM.

Rum n Coke Please for me! Cause their ain't no Good Drinking songs bout Rum n Pepsi !

Jimcanuck · May 4, 2014

And use some of that $115M for international free agents - the best source of talent in recent years.

GeorgiaPeach · May 4, 2014

Heavy overestimate on the prospects you will get back. But I don't care, for this team to have a chance, this has to happen. There will be 2-3 years of suckage after, before ending up with a young team like Washington's

Washington doesn't really have a young team. They're more of a "in their prime" team. And their farm is s***.

GeorgiaPeach · May 4, 2014

And use some of that $115M for international free agents - the best source of talent in recent years.

You're talking about guys like Darvish & Abreu.....and the next big thing Kenta Maeda? Not 16 year old Carribbean kids. correct?

ElNik2013 · May 4, 2014

Not gonna get this type of return, especially for guys like buehrle, Reyes and the FA-to-be. Also, everyone would know what you're doing unless you find AA's cousin working for another team.

It might be more helpful to trade the FA-to-be around mid-season and the others during the off season. Unless, of course, you get a great offer.

I'm all for the rebuild, but I doubt they have the patience or vision to go through it. Also, I doubt they'd be willing to field the team outlined here in the 2nd half.

AA shouldn't be allowed to rebuild anyway. He's had his shot and failed. It's only fair to bring in a new regime and let them make the trades.

theblujay · May 4, 2014

This should have started happening 6 months ago. I'm all for it and can't wait!

jayswin11 · May 4, 2014

Blow it up. Need different management too though.

John_Havok · May 4, 2014

I don't think a full on blow up is needed. With a bit of thought and less reactionary ******** from the FO(prefrrably an entirely new FO), this roster could be retooled pretty efficiently, without having to watch a team like Houston for 4 years.

ElNik2013 · May 4, 2014

I don't think a full on blow up is needed. With a bit of thought and less reactionary ******** from the FO(prefrrably an entirely new FO), this roster could be retooled pretty efficiently, without having to watch a team like Houston for 4 years.

For sure. Just a few moves this off season would've improved the team. Moves like addressing 2b, the bench and a guy like Capuano or similar SP would've improved the team without blowing the budget.

Jimcanuck · May 4, 2014

You're talking about guys like Darvish & Abreu.....and the next big thing Kenta Maeda? Not 16 year old Carribbean kids. correct?

Both - for a rebuild, these types of pick-ups are gold

GeorgiaPeach · May 4, 2014

Both - for a rebuild, these types of pick-ups are gold

There's a cap on the July 2nd budget....although you can top the cap, but with penalties for doing so attached.

Spoonovic · May 4, 2014

We cant develop young plays worth s***. Why should we trade for them?

BigBounceyBlueBalls · May 4, 2014

I think we can develop players worth s*** ! Lol

fireballW · May 5, 2014

Almost every single one of our pitchers are under performing again. All of this is useless unless we get rid of Walker in my opinion. I can remember having bad hitting and pitching for stretches of years, but nothing like this.

As for trading guys. Don't think we are there quite yet. Might as well wait until late June. If we are still terrible at that time then yes, it will be time to make some moves. People here still have way more faith in top prospects then they should though. We've seen no real sign that this organization can develop good prospects, so I am more than happy hoping on a miracle this year than committing to 3 or 4 more years of crap.

Stangstag · May 5, 2014

Almost every single one of our pitchers are under performing again. All of this is useless unless we get rid of Walker in my opinion. I can remember having bad hitting and pitching for stretches of years, but nothing like this.

As for trading guys. Don't think we are there quite yet. Might as well wait until late June. If we are still terrible at that time then yes, it will be time to make some moves. People here still have way more faith in top prospects then they should though. We've seen no real sign that this organization can develop good prospects, so I am more than happy hoping on a miracle this year than committing to 3 or 4 more years of crap.

This is a false statement.

GNick · May 5, 2014

Jays won't go thru another rebuilding program, still haven't finished their last one!

Might trade a couple of free agents instead of losing them for nothing. Rasmus and Cabrera likely

KingKat · May 5, 2014

Almost every single one of our pitchers are under performing again. All of this is useless unless we get rid of Walker in my opinion. I can remember having bad hitting and pitching for stretches of years, but nothing like this.

As for trading guys. Don't think we are there quite yet. Might as well wait until late June. If we are still terrible at that time then yes, it will be time to make some moves. People here still have way more faith in top prospects then they should though. We've seen no real sign that this organization can develop good prospects, so I am more than happy hoping on a miracle this year than committing to 3 or 4 more years of crap.

Of the starting pitchers, only Morrow has underperformed. Dickey has been frustrating to watch but overall he's about as good as should be expected at this point. McGowan has had issues but to call him an underperformer when he's pitched so little over the last few years doesn't really make any sense. No one was even counting on him to make the rotation. Hutch has exceeded expectations. Buehrle has been very successful but for the most part, he's basically pitched like he always does.

ColdPint · May 5, 2014

Earlier this year Masai Ujiri stated that his Raptors would not be caught in "no man's land" - not good enough to get to the playoffs and not bad enough to get a top pick. Different sport, different situation here but I still think this mindset should apply. After 190 games since the big moves meant to make us contenders the results have proven everything but. It's absolutely, without reasonable debate, a failure. It's time to look towards the future and start to trade our "stars" while they're still performing at a high level.

I have very little faith that this FO will do what needs to be done though, they'd rather stick their heads in the sand and hold on to their assertions that this will be a contending team. I wish MLSE was in charge of the Jays, Tim Lieweke very much looks to be the type of personality, and the type of leader that we need in the AL East. Instead, we have a FO that does nothing but be accepting of failure year after year, with excuses about not being able to bring in free agents, dealing with the payrolls of the NYY and BOS, etc etc.

shortstop · May 5, 2014

unless this team seriously underperforms like it did last year, imo, the team won't be blown up...I should clarify, there may be trades of high $$ player(s), but Rogers will, imo, want the front office to spend up to its payroll limit on free agent(s)...

imo Rogers wants at worst a mediocre team that 'always has a chance'...the fan base/interest has swelled, Rogers is pushing their corporate strategy & baseball for various reasons is a big part of that....imo, no way Rogers goes for a complete rebuild unless jays have another year similar to the one last year.

imo, this team will continue to remain in no man's land, barring the team figuring it all out & getting into the playoffs...

ColdPint · May 5, 2014

unless this team seriously underperforms like it did last year, imo, the team won't be blown up...I should clarify, there may be trades of high $$ player(s), but Rogers will, imo, want the front office to spend up to its payroll limit on free agent(s)...

imo Rogers wants at worst a mediocre team that 'always has a chance'...the fan base/interest has swelled, Rogers is pushing their corporate strategy & baseball for various reasons is a big part of that....imo, no way Rogers goes for a complete rebuild unless jays have another year similar to the one last year.

imo, this team will continue to remain in no man's land, barring the team figuring it all out & getting into the playoffs...

I fully expect this will be how the next couple of years play out......addition here, subtraction there, with the FO hoping they get "lucky" one season and everything goes right. A full rebuild would be incredibly tough to sell to the fanbase and the higher ups/Rogers. It's the right thing to do though, in my opinion, if you're not willing to take the steps needed to correct the obvious roster flaws and set this team back towards contention. The very definition of no man's land.

TheHurl · May 5, 2014

there is zero chance the team blows up the whole thing...even if a new F.O. came in they wouldn't attempt to make this a $40M type payroll. No matter what the deal it will hurt the bottom line of the team so I really think it's going to take a huge drop in ratings and attendance before they do anything too drastic. I also don't know who is the best target right now as far as teams go. Chicago and Minnesota have the most stacked farms but aren't in a position to make a move for higher payroll guys. So it's probably 4 teams that are in play that are stacked with young talent. St. Louis (who have a great GM but are willing to deal from positions of depth and ignore value), Washington (who have great under 25 talent...but very little depth), Atlanta (very willing to move players for a star but their best young talent is a big part of their current team) and Pittsburgh (this where we should be concentrating). Texas is still in play of course but their need for an OF is less than what it was.

TDotttt2005 · May 5, 2014

Earlier this year Masai Ujiri stated that his Raptors would not be caught in "no man's land" - not good enough to get to the playoffs and not bad enough to get a top pick. Different sport, different situation here but I still think this mindset should apply. After 190 games since the big moves meant to make us contenders the results have proven everything but. It's absolutely, without reasonable debate, a failure. It's time to look towards the future and start to trade our "stars" while they're still performing at a high level.

I have very little faith that this FO will do what needs to be done though, they'd rather stick their heads in the sand and hold on to their assertions that this will be a contending team. I wish MLSE was in charge of the Jays, Tim Lieweke very much looks to be the type of personality, and the type of leader that we need in the AL East. Instead, we have a FO that does nothing but be accepting of failure year after year, with excuses about not being able to bring in free agents, dealing with the payrolls of the NYY and BOS, etc etc.

Thats the biggest problem really with this franchise, post 1993. Its perpetually caught up in No Mans Land. They wont ever break the whole thing down like the Marlins or Houston, but wont ever spend like the Yankees over a sustained period, so we're caught in the middle. I personally think thats the sweet spot for profitability for Rogers, but who knows. We'll never be told that, but if they can keep to around say $90-100mil payroll, win just enough to keep the ratings high so advertisers buy in, say 75-85 wins a year, and max out on profit...they're gonna do it, World Series/Playoffs be damned.

Pre-Rogers, Post-World Series teams...thats when this team shouldve broken it all down. If you look at the players we got nothing for Molitor, Carter, Alomar, very little for Olerud. Then the tier after that, when Gord Ash, and his Canadian Inferiority Complex would not trade for prospects, because he didnt want Toronto to be known as anything but a large market team, left us with not-good-enough veterans when we dealt Green (for Mondesi), Clemens (for Wells), Wells (for Sirotka), etc etc. Huge missed opportunity there.

tercet · May 5, 2014

Astros/Cubs Style rebuild one time please?

Cooler Heads Prevail · June 7, 2014

long would it take.

Not to be too doom and gloom but given the contracts, the ages of the guys, the injuries and lack of performance if the Jays decided to go on a massive overhaul could they not in theory go on a trading spree and invigorate the farm with a staggering amount of talent?

So realistically what "general" players can we get if we blew it up.

Beurhle - teams know what they will get - a very solid number 3 (sometimes 2) starter - but with one more year at $19million.
(2 upside prospects? Say One prospect in the 70-200 best list and one upside high ceiling A prospect?)

RA Dickey - will probably rebound to something similar to last year's form. Contract isn't too bad. NL team might be more interested (pull the ole 1 for 1 like Marcum for Lawrie?)

Jose Bautista - good contract can help any team. 3-4 upper tier prospects - (1 top 50, 1 bottom 50, 1 or 2 high ceiling single a prospects)

Edwin Encarnacion - good contract can help most any team. 3-4 upper tier prospects - (1 top 50, 1 bottom 50, 1 or 2 high ceiling single a prospects)

Jose Reyes - to Yankees. Big contract - trade to division rival - 1-2 upper tier prospects - (1 bottom 50 (Or Yankee top 10), 1 high ceiling single a prospect)

Adam Lind - decent contract - no long term impact. Can be a bench hitter for a playoff club in the NL (1 medium/high ceiling single A prospect)

Melky Cabrera - Having a huge season currently with a .914OPS and is 29 but in a contract year. (1 top 50 prospect, one bottom 50 prospect). Looks like a body that will break down to me and isn't a great fielder - but the numbers look good. He is probably at maximum value.

Colby Rasmus Overall upper tier CF who will command money - not sure I want to build a team around a yokel hick. Should be able to garner one 50-100 prospect and one 100-200 prospect.

This should net us roughly 14 well above average minor league talents and a few ceiling guys on top.

The Jays after the trade deadline would have a rotation of:

Hutchison
Happ
McGowan
Stroman
Ryan Rowland-Smith/Jenkins/Rogers/Redmond (spot starters and long men.

SS - Diaz/Kawasaki
2B - Tolleson/Goins/Getz/(Izturas will come back)
3B - Lawrie
1B - Dan Johnson/Juan Francisco
C - Navarro/Kratz/Thole
CF - Gose
LF - Kevin Pillar
RF - Mastroianni

Some of the prospects we trade for may be able to be slotted in to replace this lot. Salary back to very low - infuse the team with a truck load of talent and free up $115+ million in payroll. We'd stink it up this year but we'd have 15-17 guys infused in our farm system - then with $115 million+ we could fill in the gaps with 1-2 year contract year types to field a somewhat plausible team. With all the money we're spending we're still pathetic so we may as well be pathetic with young talent on the way and on the cusp.

Might be time to explain to us all why your rebuilt roster would have been a good thing this year. I prefer having one of the best teams in baseball,

winning games. An Astros style s*** show dreaming about doing something in 4 or 5 years that we are already doing now seems stupid. Oh I know,

hindsight and all that but how many weeks since you posted this ?

Boxcar · June 8, 2014

Might be time to explain to us all why your rebuilt roster would have been a good thing this year. I prefer having one of the best teams in baseball,
winning games. An Astros style s*** show dreaming about doing something in 4 or 5 years that we are already doing now seems stupid. Oh I know,
hindsight and all that but how many weeks since you posted this ?

Find some more!!!!!1! We must kill all those who didn't believe in the Jays!!! Something about '89-'93!!!!

Cooler Heads Prevail · June 8, 2014

Find some more!!!!!1! We must kill all those who didn't believe in the Jays!!! Something about '89-'93!!!!

The era from 1983-1993 is very instructive on how the Jays can proceed now. In fact, if you watch local sports TV, these discussions occur every week in detail. For some reason, you think these kind of discussions shouldn't be allowed here, simply because you are too young or stupid to understand what happened. It's all a turf war to you isn't it ?

Bring it all you want, I don't care. I thought you would be too busy applying for some technical school to be bothering with any of this ?

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