Vote what you would do this offseason

[GeorgiaPeach]

This is all exactly right. Did we like AA going all in this off season with no thought of the future? No. But now that he's done it and ONE season has failed (mostly due to a crazy number of under performances and injuries) it's not time to abandon ship.

 

At some point it has to be time to abandon ship. And if riding out this three year commitment to the end is what they plan on doing....I don't know what to say.

 

It would be like the Angels saying...."well, we got ourselves into a bit of a pickle with Hamilton & Pujols, but lets ride this out till 2096 when their contracts are up and we'll start over then."

[TheHurl]

Abysmal way to run a team.

 

as much as many hate it, selling tickets and turning a profit is a big part of a GM's job. When a GM doesn't have a f***ing clue about value or even baseball, probably best to be one that can convince fans that he has a winning team.

[TheHurl]

At some point it has to be time to abandon ship. And if riding out this three year commitment to the end is what they plan on doing....I don't know what to say.

 

It would be like the Angels saying...."well, we got ourselves into a bit of a pickle with Hamilton & Pujols, but lets ride this out till 2096 when their contracts are up and we'll start over then."

 

I'm not sure that isn't what they are saying in Angel land. Generally GM's don't fix their own messes, they bring in a new regime to give the appearance of starting new. Does any of us really want AA being the guy that rebuilds this? As much as he looked like he was heading in the right direction in 2010 he still hasn't shown he has a clue how to handle a 40 man roster. Worst thing that can happen to this franchise would be the Jays competing for a wildcard spot this year.

[kgm1]

At some point it has to be time to abandon ship. And if riding out this three year commitment to the end is what they plan on doing....I don't know what to say.

 

It would be like the Angels saying...."well, we got ourselves into a bit of a pickle with Hamilton & Pujols, but lets ride this out till 2096 when their contracts are up and we'll start over then."

 

Obviously riding it out the 3 years puts us over the cliff . I don't know anyone advocating that except maybe Rogers/ Beeston .

[ElNik2013]

as much as many hate it, selling tickets and turning a profit is a big part of a GM's job. When a GM doesn't have a f***ing clue about value or even baseball, probably best to be one that can convince fans that he has a winning team.

 

 

I feel confident that we'll see reduced ticket sales this off season which will hopefully get the Rogers high-ups' attention and make them start to question the way their franchise is being run.

[ElNik2013]

At some point it has to be time to abandon ship. And if riding out this three year commitment to the end is what they plan on doing....I don't know what to say.

 

It would be like the Angels saying...."well, we got ourselves into a bit of a pickle with Hamilton & Pujols, but lets ride this out till 2096 when their contracts are up and we'll start over then."

 

 

My guess is next june/july would be when they'd realize it's time to (re) start the rebuilding process if they're tanking again. Whether it's this front office that does the rebuilding is another matter, I would think a new one would need to be brought in. It's really a shame, as you have said, I liked the way the franchise was shaping up prior to the Happ trade and even with the injuries in 2012.

[GeorgiaPeach]

as much as many hate it, selling tickets and turning a profit is a big part of a GM's job. When a GM doesn't have a f***ing clue about value or even baseball, probably best to be one that can convince fans that he has a winning team.

 

Winning sells tickets in the Toronto market, so why even suggest a 3 year window to do something? If a GM's job is to always be trying to sell tickets then there should never be times to go lean and have firesales.

 

As for Alex, I loved him as a GM up until his retarded trades. I honestly find it hard to believe he all of a sudden went from making creative moves and value trades to being a full blown retard. Something happened beyond his control and he changed course. And if it was a push from Beeston to make an immediate splash to sell tickets and get name players on the team then maybe Beeston needs to take a walk and the Jays need a President more in-tune with baseball and not being a f***ing goof.

[G-Snarls]

At some point it has to be time to abandon ship.

 

Oh, absolutely

 

If all star break 2014 this team is out of the playoff picture already it's clearly time to give up. And you could get fantastic returns on guys like Lind, Bautista, Santos and Buerhle at that point from teams on the bubble, with money and holes in their lineups/rotations/bullpens.

 

If the team contends in 2014, then you keep the majority of these guys and continue to tweak, carefully trading guys away to keep the farm in reasonable shape and filling holes where you need to.

[Slot Machine]

 

f***, I hate windows to win. But the funny thing is when a team comes out and defines a window to win, the fans love it because they think...YES!!!!! we're going for it over the next 3 years. But they're oblivious to the cliff after that 3 year window. And then when the cliff is staring them in the face they get all upset.

 

To be fair the Jays have been staring at that cliff for basically 20 years.

[kgm1]

Winning sells tickets in the Toronto market, so why even suggest a 3 year window to do something? If a GM's job is to always be trying to sell tickets then there should never be times to go lean and have firesales.

 

As for Alex, I loved him as a GM up until his retarded trades. I honestly find it hard to believe he all of a sudden went from making creative moves and value trades to being a full blown retard. Something happened beyond his control and he changed course. And if it was a push from Beeston to make an immediate splash to sell tickets and get name players on the team then maybe Beeston needs to take a walk and the Jays need a President more in-tune with baseball and not being a f***ing goof.

 

I firmly believe ownership forced this on AA . He had a plan and was well on his way to making that plan a reality then totally changes course . He will take the fall but this came from above as I have stated many times

[kgm1]

My guess is next june/july would be when they'd realize it's time to (re) start the rebuilding process if they're tanking again. Whether it's this front office that does the rebuilding is another matter, I would think a new one would need to be brought in. It's really a shame, as you have said, I liked the way the franchise was shaping up prior to the Happ trade and even with the injuries in 2012.

 

AA was well on his way to doing it once so I have no problem having him go at the rebuild again .

[G-Snarls]

... it seems obvious that he has no idea what actually makes a player valuable.

 

If only he had apprenticed under Billy Beane instead of J. P. Ricciardi.

[Angrioter]

If only he had apprenticed under Billy Beane instead of J. P. Ricciardi.

 

Ying Yang

http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/blogs-prod-photos/7/c/b/d/f/7cbdfc98f1a4beca90aac5599a24d481.jpg?stmp=1353466110

[TheHurl]

Winning sells tickets in the Toronto market, so why even suggest a 3 year window to do something? If a GM's job is to always be trying to sell tickets then there should never be times to go lean and have firesales.

 

Everyone always says winning sells tickets...but we still had 13K for a 31-22 team on June 1st in 2010. We pre-sold 30K for every weekend game before the season started this year, when it comes to finances that kind of commitment is immeasurable. Firesales can turn a profit as well, which is what I said was a big part of every GM's job.

 

As for Alex, I loved him as a GM up until his retarded trades. I honestly find it hard to believe he all of a sudden went from making creative moves and value trades to being a full blown retard. Something happened beyond his control and he changed course. And if it was a push from Beeston to make an immediate splash to sell tickets and get name players on the team then maybe Beeston needs to take a walk and the Jays need a President more in-tune with baseball and not being a f***ing goof.

 

Social exchange theory? Where we put our own interests first when making an initial impression of someone. I think it's possible, and maybe I've been influenced by information from the inside, that AA was lucky at the start with teams knowing he was in rebuild mode and dumb GM's came to him with the early deals. I do agree that Beeston is an idiot but I don't think AA is far behind him.

[GD]

I feel like JPR is probably a better baseball mind than AA. And it isn't like there haven't been good thinkers in the FO - Jay Sartori and Tom Tango have both been on the payroll during his tenure, and there are probably some good analysts buried deep in the analytics department. He clearly doesn't really buy into the advanced stuff though.

 

I vaguely call this but have no idea how that worked out.

 

Remember when we denied BP when they were trying to have a convention here? That was pretty telling.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I'm not sure that isn't what they are saying in Angel land. Generally GM's don't fix their own messes, they bring in a new regime to give the appearance of starting new. Does any of us really want AA being the guy that rebuilds this? As much as he looked like he was heading in the right direction in 2010 he still hasn't shown he has a clue how to handle a 40 man roster. Worst thing that can happen to this franchise would be the Jays competing for a wildcard spot this year.

 

What I meant with the Angels was, you don't ride out stupidity to the bitter end, just because you thought it was a good idea. At some point the GM if he's the one who f'ed up should take responsibility and switch gears if the old plan has gone off the rails.

Edited October 14, 2013 by GeorgiaPeach

[GeorgiaPeach]

Obviously riding it out the 3 years puts us over the cliff . I don't know anyone advocating that except maybe Rogers/ Beeston .

 

I know some fans for a fact who tear up when the thought of Bautista retiring in a Jays jersey crosses their mind. And honestly its f***ing gay.

[GeorgiaPeach]

My guess is next june/july would be when they'd realize it's time to (re) start the rebuilding process if they're tanking again. Whether it's this front office that does the rebuilding is another matter, I would think a new one would need to be brought in. It's really a shame, as you have said, I liked the way the franchise was shaping up prior to the Happ trade and even with the injuries in 2012.

 

I'd be willing to bet if the Jays ended up having to rebuild.....they'd still go down the stupid path again once the farm was ripe with prospects.

[GeorgiaPeach]

You mean the specific transactions? I dunno. I have a hard time believing Beeston knew who Reyes, Buehrle and Dickey were last offseason, let alone force his GM to acquire them. I can buy AA having a mandate from Beeston to contend in 2014.

 

I would've liked for this to happen, but this franchise seems so wrapped up emotionally in the players it acquired.

 

The trade for Dickey happens. Dickey pitches 2013 coming off a 2012 CY year, getting paid 5M this year, taking advantage of his ultra low salary.......(present day) This off season Alex deals Dickey and his 12M multi year deal for the best package of prospects he can land and uses the money he would've spent on 4 million year old RA to spend towards Tanaka.

 

I'd be very happy with that risk.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Hahaha......I'm pretty sure he knows who they are, hence my speculation. Alex should've quit if this were the case.

 

I'm pretty sure he knows who they are as well. They were playing in the only years Beeston can remember out of his life, '92 & '93.

 

The man has issues and needs to be put out of his misery.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Hey, you planning on going to Detroit, just wondering?

 

If Detroit sweeps the Sox, no because its Game 5. But if it gets to Game 5, my ticket is bought and paid for.

 

Also looking at WS tickets right now. I'm gonna make it a yearly thing to get to as many playoffs/WS games I can.

[TheHurl]

I'd be willing to bet if the Jays ended up having to rebuild.....they'd still go down the stupid path again once the farm was ripe with prospects.

 

I'd have to think it's a tough temptation to stay away from, I mean every single year there are hundreds of thousands baseball fans and writers that suggest every team sign the biggest free agents and trade for the best players available. There are very few GM's out there constantly just looking for value and of the ones that are, really only St. Louis comes to mind as one that really could break the bank. The rest of the GM's probably aren't that much smarter than the fans and writers that think signing a Josh Hamilton can only improve your team.

[saskjayfan]

For B, didn't you suggest trading Bautista? If that's the case I'd want nothing less than a superb package of "prospects" coming back. Sad thing is I think this team is built for the next couple years on extreme veteraness.

 

f***, I hate windows to win. But the funny thing is when a team comes out and defines a window to win, the fans love it because they think...YES!!!!! we're going for it over the next 3 years. But they're oblivious to the cliff after that 3 year window. And then when the cliff is staring them in the face they get all upset.

 

yeah and the continuous rebuild is getting amazing prospects...all we need is 6 or 7 of those prospects to come together at the same time to make a run...and we invariably get one to 2 pieces come together and we go out and get some vets and fail.....we've been in a perpetual rebuild situation for 20 years....Tampa has been able to pull together a rotation of ridiculous talent of top end starters for the last several years...but it's not that easy to do.

[TheHurl]

yeah and the continuous rebuild is getting amazing prospects...all we need is 6 or 7 of those prospects to come together at the same time to make a run...and we invariably get one to 2 pieces come together and we go out and get some vets and fail.....we've been in a perpetual rebuild situation for 20 years....Tampa has been able to pull together a rotation of ridiculous talent of top end starters for the last several years...but it's not that easy to do.

 

What about Texas and St. Louis? The Cards came off of 2 straight playoff runs and had like 9 rookies play this year. Yes Texas paid the money for Yu, but they also let Hamilton walk and announced at the start of the year that they'd be letting Cruz walk (maybe his indiscretions will put him back into Texas' price range but I doubt it). They gave starts to several rookies as well.

[GeorgiaPeach]

yeah and the continuous rebuild is getting amazing prospects...all we need is 6 or 7 of those prospects to come together at the same time to make a run...and we invariably get one to 2 pieces come together and we go out and get some vets and fail.....we've been in a perpetual rebuild situation for 20 years....Tampa has been able to pull together a rotation of ridiculous talent of top end starters for the last several years...but it's not that easy to do.

 

I'd rather the team be extremely financially flexible (young) and be able to snag a free agent they desire, whenever they choose. Eventually as more prospects click the team gets better, and you keep picking up the nice odd complimentary free agent, then you turn the prospects who click, over like Tampa does once free agency is impending for another haul of prospects.

 

Tampa doesn't care that David Price has been a apart of the Rays franchise for the past 5, 6 years. The Rays will move Price for a bevy of prospects and use the money saved on Price to fill a hole elsewhere.

[BarrysSyringe]

Plan B- Trade Bautista and Janssen to texas for Profar and Martin Perez. Sign Beltran or Cruz or Choo depending on the budget.

I think that AA only trades Jose if a trade offer like this arises where we are getting a stud in Profar and a middle of the rotation arm with Perez

[jayswin11]

I think we could get a haul for Bautista. Start with that and go from there.

[kgm1]

Plan B- Trade Bautista and Janssen to texas for Profar and Martin Perez. Sign Beltran or Cruz or Choo depending on the budget.

I think that AA only trades Jose if a trade offer like this arises where we are getting a stud in Profar and a middle of the rotation arm with Perez

 

Texas wouldn't move Profar for Upton last year and would NEVER trade Perez for a closer .

[kgm1]

Question , How much value do these Vets lose if we keep them till the trade deadline ? I think very little thus I see what this team can do in the first half . Unfortunately I believe AA,s job is on the line here so a firesale at the deadline even if we aren't close seems unlikely .

Ownership would rather roll a head even if it is innocent than admit they were even partly to blame . What is best for the long term health of the team isn't in the equation anymore . The more I look back the more I realize how stupid going all in last year was .

[G-Snarls]

Question , How much value do these Vets lose if we keep them till the trade deadline ? I think very little thus I see what this team can do in the first half . Unfortunately I believe AA,s job is on the line here so a firesale at the deadline even if we aren't close seems unlikely

 

As long as vet players have at least a year and a half of control left and not just half a season, it seems like you can get pretty good value for them. You sometimes also end up trading to a team who is a bit desperate - on the playoff bubble and a key player is injured.