Alex Anthopoulos Vs JP Ricciardi: 2013 edition

[SAAviour]

JP Ricciardi is the guy that signed the BJ Ryan and Vernon Wells contracts, the guy who left AA the rank 28 farm system in baseball and the guy that fielded teams that were legitimately mediocre for several years.

 

AA took that farm system and made it top 3 within two years, absolutely pimping the draft system. He acquired Rasmus, Escobar, Lawrie, Morrow, Santos and Delabar for pennies on the dollar, and has probably made one of the greatest series of contract extensions we've ever seen. Both of his last two teams have remained competitive until midway through the season until the sheer mind-f***ingly stupid amount of bad luck has caught up to them.

 

I completely understand being upset with AA but the amount of blind, irrational hate for him on this board is getting ridiculous.

 

I wish I could thank this post twice.

[o2cui2i]

this is like comparing fried liver and blood pudding. I'm sure you can find someone who likes one or the other, perhaps even both, but most would choose just about anything else.

[TwistedLogic]

this is like comparing fried liver and blood pudding. I'm sure you can find someone who likes one or the other, perhaps even both, but most would choose just about anything else.

 

Totally. We would be so much better off having Jack Z or Ruben Amaro Jr or Ed Wade or Larry Beinfest or Dayton Moore or Tony Reagins or Omar Minaya; hell let's call up Chuck LaMar or Jim Bowden.

[mitchf]

Alex because he can negotiate a contract as well as anyone.

 

After that it gets ugly and quickly, but JP wasn't much better.

[Caper]

Just think about where AA would be without Bautista and EE. They might have lost 100 games this year and AA would easily be out of a job.

 

The only good, cost-effective player AA has acquired in four (!) seasons is Rasmus (and maybe Yunel, but look at how that worked out). And he's only had one good year with the Blue Jays.

 

Just think how bad Michael Jordan would have been without arms.

[Caper]

Thames for Delabar is wiped out by losing Farquhar and David Carpenter, both of whom were better this year. Every team shuffles relievers around every year and ends up with a couple dominant guys... acquiring a middle reliever can't be a bullet point on a GM's resume.

 

You could also make the case that Vernon Wells was on Tony Reagins' stupidity, not AA's genius.

 

In any case, the team has a worse 40-man roster than they did when AA took over. That's the bottom line, and it's unacceptable.

 

And built a farm system that is so f***in deep, that you can trade all the best pieces and still end up with a top system.

[mitchf]

Just think how bad Michael Jordan would have been without arms.

Right because that makes sense...

 

Alex isn't hindered by not having eyes to watch his players and he certainly has access to all the spreadsheets in the world. The truth is without Bautista & Edwin being handed to him, he's out of a job.

[jaysblue]

AA: I'm going to kill the deal because I don't want John Buck

Beeston: You can't kill the deal for John Buck, we are getting Reyes back etc.

 

AA *picks up phone, accepts deal while Beeston anxiously waits for updates*

 

?????

 

The funny thing is John Buck would have been the Jays best catcher last season lol.

[jaysblue]

JP was extremely unlucky not to have a 90 win team. Under him this team had almost the best pitching in baseball. Had Marcum and Macgowan not got hurt when they did life would have gone very differently

 

The 2008 pitching staff was amazing, though the lineup was terrible. For crying out loud, guys like Shannon Stewart, Kevin Mench, Brad Wilkerson got way too many AB's that season.

[mitchf]

And built a farm system that is so f***in deep, that you can trade all the best pieces and still end up with a top system.

Get the f*** out of here with this "he built a farm system" garbage. He hasn't given us one legitimate position player prospect in his three drafts.

 

50% of these pitchers will have their arms blown off by Double A. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. When Alex translate a prospect into a player, we can start talking about his eye for the draft.

[jaysblue]

Well when JP's team were floating above the 80 win mark you could say the same about JP inheriting Halladay.

 

JP locked up Halladay to those team friendly extensions, when at the time I'm sure Halladay as a FA would have cashed in huge.

[Caper]

There was a small anti-AA movement around mid-season 2012.

 

Yeah... That's why he said 95%

[Caper]

Get the f*** out of here with this "he built a farm system" garbage. He hasn't given us one legitimate position player prospect in his three drafts.

 

50% of these pitchers will have their arms blown off by Double A. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. When Alex translate a prospect into a player, we can start talking about his eye for the draft.

 

I think you're better off have all pitching prospects. You can always trade pitching for legitimate position players... Much harder the other way around. I'm beginning to think, that your better off having your entire top 10 prospects be solid starting pitching prospects, then any kind of a balance.

[Caper]

Right because that makes sense...

 

Alex isn't hindered by not having eyes to watch his players and he certainly has access to all the spreadsheets in the world. The truth is without Bautista & Edwin being handed to him, he's out of a job.

 

That's right... And if Michael Jordan didn't have arms, he may have never won an NBA title.....

[mitchf]

I think you're better off have all pitching prospects. You can always trade pitching for legitimate position players... Much harder the other way around. I'm beginning to think, that your better off having your entire top 10 prospects be solid starting pitching prospects, then any kind of a balance.

And surely that has nothing to do with the fact that your favorite team shares this very same belief?

 

I mean no disrespect here, but give me some type of data that suggests that drafting only pitchers is the way to go. From what I've seen top position player prospects are held in a much higher regard, in fact our very own Pat Gillick once said that position players are more important & harder to get hold of.

 

The last couple draft day threads have been filled with "Let's take a bat next" only to be followed with "What the f*** is Alex doing?"

[mitchf]

That's right... And if Michael Jordan didn't have arms, he may have never won an NBA title.....

Michael Jordan without arms isn't on an equal playing field. Alex is and was given a handicap of "two of the 5 best power hitters in the game for free"

[Caper]

And surely that has nothing to do with the fact that your favorite team shares this very same belief?

 

Are you sure it is? I'm not set on it... I'm more just throwing it out there. There is an insane premium on young quality pitching.... even old quality pitching. To me if you could be constantly graduating young pitchers.... like Tampa, you can use your graduates to bring in guys like a Will Myers.

 

I just feel like at any point you can cash in pitching for position players.

 

I mean no disrespect here, but give me some type of data that suggests that drafting only pitchers is the way to go.

 

No disrespect taken. I have none. All anecdotal of what I have been observing in the last few years. I could be completely wrong... and probably am.

[TwistedLogic]

And surely that has nothing to do with the fact that your favorite team shares this very same belief?

 

I mean no disrespect here, but give me some type of data that suggests that drafting only pitchers is the way to go. From what I've seen top position player prospects are held in a much higher regard, in fact our very own Pat Gillick once said that position players are more important & harder to get hold of.

 

The last couple draft day threads have been filled with "Let's take a bat next" only to be followed with "What the f*** is Alex doing?"

Give you some type of data that suggests drafting only pitchers is the way to go? How about the fact that every player we want in trade comes with the price tag of our pitching prospects? How about the fact that AA has made acquiring 4-WAR position players (Rasmus, Escobar, Reyes) look easy while we're dealing with perennial desperation when it comes to pitching?

 

Michael Jordan without arms isn't on an equal playing field. Alex is and was given a handicap of "two of the 5 best power hitters in the game for free"

 

That's ********. 29 other GMs could have picked up Edwin when he went on waivers, TWICE. Where was the hand-me-down there? He was the GM that picked up Edwin from waivers and he was the GM that signed them both to extensions long before they were sure things. This is the kind of steaming pile of garbage that I'm talking about when I say people's hate for AA has gone above and beyond what it should be. Every f***ing team has players that come out of nowhere. Chris Davis for the Orioles, RA Dickey for the Mets, the list goes on and on. It is absolutely 100% to AA's credit that he saw the promise in both players and extended them to amazing f***ing deals while EVERYBODY said to sell high on them, exactly how they're saying about Rasmus right now.

 

Some of you are completely shameless when it comes to how biased your opinions are.

[Caper]

Give you some type of data that suggests drafting only pitchers is the way to go? How about the fact that every player we want in trade comes with the price tag of our pitching prospects? How about the fact that AA has made acquiring 4-WAR position players (Rasmus, Escobar, Reyes) look easy while we're dealing with perennial desperation when it comes to pitching?

 

 

 

That's ********. He was the GM that picked up Edwin from waivers and he was the GM that signed them both to extensions long before they were sure things. This is the kind of steaming pile of garbage that I'm talking about when I say people's hate for AA has gone above and beyond what it should be. Every f***ing team has players that come out of nowhere. Chris Davis for the Orioles, RA Dickey for the Mets, the list goes on and on. It is absolutely 100% to AA's credit that he saw the promise in both players and extended them to amazing f***ing deals while EVERYBODY said to sell high on them, exactly how they're saying about Rasmus right now.

 

Some of you are completely shameless when it comes to how biased your opinions are.

 

 

It's a bit angrier then I would have said it.... but that is a pretty stellar post.

[TwistedLogic]

It's a bit angrier then I would have said it.... but that is a pretty stellar post.

 

That's me. http://i.imgur.com/py2PxcN.gif

[KingKat]

Totally. We would be so much better off having Jack Z or Ruben Amaro Jr or Ed Wade or Larry Beinfest or Dayton Moore or Tony Reagins or Omar Minaya; hell let's call up Chuck LaMar or Jim Bowden.

 

Isn't Chuck LaMar part of AA's brain trust?

[Terminator]

Michael Jordan without arms isn't on an equal playing field. Alex is and was given a handicap of "two of the 5 best power hitters in the game for free"

 

JP was given the best pitcher of the decade in Roy Halladay.

[Terminator]

I'm a little late to the party so some of this has probably been said but they both have their faults.

 

JP was probably a little more "sabremetric" friendly but he wasn't smart about it all. He gave BJ Ryan a 50 million dollar deal after all. That's atrocious.

[Smokey]

JP Ricciardi is the guy that signed the BJ Ryan and Vernon Wells contracts, the guy who left AA the rank 28 farm system in baseball and the guy that fielded teams that were legitimately mediocre for several years.

 

AA took that farm system and made it top 3 within two years, absolutely pimping the draft system. He acquired Rasmus, Escobar, Lawrie, Morrow, Santos and Delabar for pennies on the dollar, and has probably made one of the greatest series of contract extensions we've ever seen. Both of his last two teams have remained competitive until midway through the season until the sheer mind-f***ingly stupid amount of bad luck has caught up to them.

I completely understand being upset with AA but the amount of blind, irrational hate for him on this board is getting ridiculous.

 

I don't know how anyone can say that last years team was competitive at any point. They won 11 straight but before and after that they pretty much played terrible fundamental baseball and it started with JP catching Dickey in the first game. I also hate when people use the injury excuse considering the fact that AA completely neglected the team's depth as we basically had Romero as the 6th starter and not much else and essentially no legitimate options at SS or 3B as backup.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Smokey

[mitchf]

Give you some type of data that suggests drafting only pitchers is the way to go? How about the fact that every player we want in trade comes with the price tag of our pitching prospects? How about the fact that AA has made acquiring 4-WAR position players (Rasmus, Escobar, Reyes) look easy while we're dealing with perennial desperation when it comes to pitching?

Right because teams would much rather have DJ Davis & Mitch Nay. Our best prospects are pitchers, what do you expect?

We've had exactly ONE 4 WAR position player other than Edwin & Jose under AA's tenure. Also, there is nothing easy about the three players you listed. One took 700 at bats before he became an asset and the others were flipped for each other in a move that actually decreased our $/WAR efficiency. That may be off the point since you're talking about the cost of acquisition, but you're kidding yourself if you think AA has found some market inefficient which revolves around trading pitching specs for quality bats.

That's ********. 29 other GMs could have picked up Edwin when he went on waivers, TWICE. Where was the hand-me-down there? He was the GM that picked up Edwin from waivers and he was the GM that signed them both to extensions long before they were sure things. This is the kind of steaming pile of garbage that I'm talking about when I say people's hate for AA has gone above and beyond what it should be. Every f***ing team has players that come out of nowhere. Chris Davis for the Orioles, RA Dickey for the Mets, the list goes on and on. It is absolutely 100% to AA's credit that he saw the promise in both players and extended them to amazing f***ing deals while EVERYBODY said to sell high on them, exactly how they're saying about Rasmus right now.

 

Some of you are completely shameless when it comes to how biased your opinions are.

You really should be able to differentiate between post-DFA'd Edwin and pre-DFA's Edwin. The latter gutted us every other night with his defense & was wrongly placed into the role of an everyday infielder by yours truly AA. Why create some false narrative about only Alex being able to see past his defensive flaws? Everyone could, it was just a matter of finding a replacement at the corner infield spots.

In regards to everybody wanting to sell high on them.. Maybe reconsider your motive here. That's not true, AT ALL.

 

Who am I to criticize AA for signing Edwin & Jose long term? I have never once done it and never will. It's his greatest achievement as a general manager and these contracts are the envy of the league going forward. Also, not every f***ing team has players that come out of no where and especially not players like Jose Bautista & Edwin Encarnacion. I think it's safe to say that Alex will be the first and last GM to acquire 32.4 fWAR from two players over the course of three years, FREE OF COST (Sure Scott Rolen, blah blah blah).

 

You're certainly part of a minority in thinking that AA is the guy for the future. This isn't blind hate, this is hate that has progressed over three years and was capped off by trading 2 A level prospects for a 38 year old knuckleballer. The lack of position players in the draft is just one of many things on the "Fire Alex" list.

[mitchf]

I don't know how anyone can say that last years team was competitive at any point. They won 11 straight at one point but before and after that they pretty much played terrible fundamental baseball and it started with JP catching Dickey in the first game. I also hate when people use the injury excuse considering the fact that AA completely neglected the team's depth as we basically had Romero as the 6th starter and not much else and essentially no legitimate options at SS or 3B as backup.

Shhhh, let the blind and irrational love for Alex continue...

[Dick_Pole]

Anyone who votes for JPR has a short memory of what he did while here. They look back at the standing and say "hey, in retrospect that team was pretty good"

 

Let's get one thing clear...this team was never close to a contender...once. Looking back at the standings and seeing they were within 8 or 10 games of a playoff spot doesn't mean anything. A lot of those teams were out of it by August then had a hot September. Looking at the standings back then and saying he had the Yankees and Red Sox to deal with isn't fair either. The O's and Rays were s*** and guaranteed wins and guaranteed fillers of #4 and #5 in the standings...Alex does not have that luxury.

 

On top of never being close to a contender, it never had a good farm system, it was a team that was directionless and headed for the abyss for years under the man. That guy could lead the team for 20 years and it'll have a .500 record with no playoff spots and no top prospects to its name. It's funny one of the first pro-JPR posts talks about how he would never field a guy like Arencibia. He drafted the guy 21st overall and the guy before him in the 2007 draft was even worse. So there goes that theory in a way. He won't field him, he'll just draft him so the next guy is burdened with trying him out as the next big upcoming star.

 

One thing that JPR was very, very good at was finding good value guys like Marco Scutaro and Frank Catalanotto. That's the one true positive he has over Alex, and that's probably 90% of the reasons why this pole is actually as close as it is. But on the flip side he gave away a ton of talent. Chris Carpenter walks for nothing to save a couple of million in arb thanks to his injury. A rumoured Cain for Rios deal turns into Rios for a salary dump. Whatever people complain about AA selling low on Snider or anyone else...Snider never had much value to begin with as an MLB player, only as a prospect before he hit the majors.

 

People talk about AA inheriting this player or that player. JPR inherited probably the best pitcher of the mid-2000's and at a below market contract. You don't get handed an ace like that everyday. On top of all that you had to deal with an arrogant ******* that was embarrassing to this organization from a PR standpoint. Before him, this team was seen as top of the class when it comes to upper management. That was 99% Gillick and even though Gord Ash was never a great GM, he was still very well liked. Frank Thomas signed with the Jays because he recalled them as being a classy organization that knew how to build a winner, even though it had a long drought from the playoffs even at his tenure. Now this generation of players has no recollection of the Jays being top of the class and now its harder to sign free agents.

 

I'm not trying to say AA is a genius or without his faults. But clearly people do not recall how BAD JPR was.

[Dick_Pole]

JP locked up Halladay to those team friendly extensions, when at the time I'm sure Halladay as a FA would have cashed in huge.

 

99.99999% of that was Halladay wanting to stay here.

 

The other 0.000001% of that was JPR lying to him about how serious a contender this team could be under him.

[Abomination]

One thing that JPR was very, very good at was finding good value guys like Marco Scutaro and Frank Catalanotto.

 

Johnsonalanatto (can't remember if that's what we ended up calling it or not, but it was something like that). Best semi-platoon we ever had!

[admin]

I always defended JPR on the old board and took a lot of heat for it. Besides not making the big trades, and got a little carried away when he was given some cash, JPR did a pretty good job here.