Alex Anthopoulos Vs JP Ricciardi: 2013 edition

[Orgfiller]

Hard to say. AA build a top 5 farm team, and when it was time for him to transition into a play off contender he fell apart and now we have no farm and are still out of the playoffs.

 

JP he was more of an all or nothing kind of guy which he put together some "solid" seasons but still no playoffs and never a thought at all about the farm system much it seemed.

 

Not going to vote on this one just pointing observations lol.

 

This.

 

IMO, AA's first years>Ricciardi>>current AA.

[havok24]

2006-2008 Blue Jays were awesome.

[reedjohnsonfan]

Let's face it, most of us were excited about "the trade" last winter. Reyes alone had me jacked. We gave up a lot but we were all excited that we were finally "going for it"...I might not have had the balls to make that trade but AA took a shot and if it had worked out we wouldn't be worried about the prospects we let go of.

 

I will say this, his biggest mistake was hiring Gibbons. Gibbons himself told him it was a mistake. It was clear coming out of Spring Training that the team wasn't prepared. His other mistake was keeping JPA at the big league level when he's been running his mouth and making enemies out of everyone, in the midst of the worst season I can ever recall any big league player having. He's talked his way out of town while playing his way out of town. Between the coaching and the catching, I have to wonder how much better the pitching could have been if handled properly.

 

In any event...JP Ricciardi was almost as unlikeable as JP Arencibia. He was arrogant, bashed players in the media, was unprofessional and no one liked dealing with him. His "big splash" off season didn't work out either (Scott Rolen, BJ Ryan, etc)...difference is he got them as free agents without blowing up the farm.

 

It's a close call but based on everything, I still think AA is the better GM. I also think that's not really saying much because JP was awful.

 

I think the verdict is still out, but remember AA's budget was much higher this year than Ricciardi's ever was... so salary inflation included. Ricciardi and his team (which I admit did include AA) had a nice eye for pitching, but he was an idiot in the media. It's a close call you need to wait a few years to see how things turn out but right now it's very close and a matter of how you weight different aspects of the ball club.

[connorp]

2006-2008 Blue Jays were awesome.

 

The rosters were exciting, but what ppl prb forget is that the core of those teams wasnt old. It was built (optically at the time anyways) for sustained success. Guys like Rios, Wells, Hill, Overbay all regressed early and then young P kept getting hurt

 

Not that it was all JPR, he inherited some players to build around.. But he made some quality supplemental moves..

 

Waant a special GM but i think he did better than AA.

[Angrioter]

2006-2008 Blue Jays were awesome.

 

The rosters were exciting, but what ppl prb forget is that the core of those teams wasnt old. It was built (optically at the time anyways) for sustained success. Guys like Rios, Wells, Hill, Overbay all regressed early and then young P kept getting hurt

 

Not that it was all JPR, he inherited some players to build around.. But he made some quality supplemental moves..

 

Waant a special GM but i think he did better than AA.

 

http://www.bluejaysmessageboard.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=371&d=1381278065

 

 

[kgm1]

......and basically told us the fan base that we were stupid canadians who had no clue about baseball.

 

When you look at the entire fanbase and compare it against its 29 peers, JP was bang on IMO.

 

******** ! But even if it was true you think it was smart of the GM to insult the fanbase.

 

"I don't agree with AA gutting our minor leagues but he at least built one. I also believe Rogers and Beeston pushed these moves . I don't think AA would have done it had it been his choice ."

 

If that's the case and Alex had no say in what happened then he should spitefully bury the farm and go all-in leaving Beeston and Rogers holding the bag of sh*t at the

And in spite of how stupid that would be it will probably happen

[GeorgiaPeach]

Just listening to Bobcat's PTS interview with Anthopoulos. I understand not throwing your players under the bus. But how can Alex seriously try and defend the Jays hitters by them not having a different approach at the plate when they have two strikes on them.

 

Seriously...."we have a Homerun team" to justify the bad AB's. Yeah, but when you have two strikes you still shouldn't be looking to hit a f***ing jack into the upper deck you f***ing loogan.

[jaysblue]

I don't think JPR was that bad of a GM as many people in Toronto made him out to be. He made a lot of solid under the radar moves and did put together some solid teams under a tight budget. He did go all out during the 2005/2006 offseason by trading for Glaus and Overbay and signing Burnett, Ryan and Molina, though they did not cripple the teams future/farm system as the AA trades did this offseason. However, one thing I did like about JPR was the under the radar moves he made which payed huge dividends (signing Frank Catalanotto, Scott Downs, Greg Myers, trading for Ted Lilly, trading for Scutaro, building cheap effective BP's almost every season etc.

 

I still think the 2008 team was the best the Jays put together. The rotation with Halladay, Burnett and if Marcum, McGowan stayed healthy for the full season was one of the best in my opinion. Offensively, the team struggled heavily and I was disappointed that the Jays never went out and acquired a big bat when they needed one.

 

As for deciding on which GM has been better, I still think we need to give AA some time. If this Jays team made the postseason, I'm sure everyone on here would choose AA hands down. Right now, in terms of baseball decisions I'd say I have liked JPR's moves better since he was able to find a lot of value out of the signings and trades he made (outside of the Ryan, Wells, and Rios contracts which would be his only faults -- though with Wells I'm sure he was pressured from Godfrey to sign him long term).

[Nox]

Just pluck someone out of the Rays, Cardinals or A's front office. Previous GM experience isn't a big criterion in baseball.

 

Hire one of the two Directors of R&D from the Rays (they don't have AGMs there). They'll be hired somewhere in the next 5 years. Might as well be here.

 

Then I can actually give a s*** about this team again.

[kgm1]

How would our farm system look if we had signed Paxton ,Beede , and Bickford. I have bitched for years that we don't develop the picks we do get.

 

AA has too much loyalty to the farm development people. Go rob the Cards system. Beeston and AA stated that would make this a place where the best scouts and development people wanted to come like it was before the Riccardi era.. So prove it .

 

When you evalaluate JPR remember the long list of failed first round picks. Moot point I guess since AA doesn't sign any.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

......and basically told us the fan base that we were stupid canadians who had no clue about baseball.

 

When you look at the entire fanbase and compare it against its 29 peers, JP was bang on IMO.

 

"I don't agree with AA gutting our minor leagues but he at least built one. I also believe Rogers and Beeston pushed these moves . I don't think AA would have done it had it been his choice ."

 

If that's the case and Alex had no say in what happened then he should spitefully bury the farm and go all-in leaving Beeston and Rogers holding the bag of sh*t at the end.

 

BS. Toronto has so many things going for it; meanwhile the US is quite literally going to s*** in many areas. For example, Tigers are a good ball club. How is their fan base and economy ? Well, a bankrupt city with many homes foreclosed or burned out / looted is hardly encouraging.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Cooler Heads Prevail

[Angrioter]

Update

 

Alex Anthopoulos 17 (brutos dudes)

JP Ricciardi 17 (smart dudes)

[ManOnThird]

I voted JPR.

 

It's true he was arrogant and could be a complete dick to fans, but he did a better job at a time when the Red Sox and Yankees were unbeatable. In those years the Jays were actually more competitive against those better teams, (even to the point of dominating Boston). Now the Jays just lay an egg and roll over when the Yankess roll in with their scrub lineup. What a bunch of pathetic garbage the Jays have turned into. And they're going to be just as bad in the next couple seasons. This is even in the new wildcard era, when the Jays should have extra incentive to know they have a shot of the playoffs.

 

AA has somehow stripped any real fight out of the team it seems, banking on oft-injured players that can never really be cornerstones because they are constantly being benched due to injuries. And what emotion the team does show (i.e. Bautista, Lawrie, JPA) is just self-righteous, egotistic babyism. Nothing wrong with a player or two acting like that, but they can't be the leaders on the team.

 

Meanwhile in most of the JPR years, the Jays would've made the playoffs (or been very close) if they were capable at all of winning interleague games. If I'm not mistaken, they essentially had the worst interleague record of all AL teams, meanwhile the Yankees and Boston continued to dominate against NL teams. Ricciardi was destined to be loathed in Toronto anyways, because he was the guy who had to get rid of Delgado. JPR also brought in tons of crap and scrapheap players. The fifth starter was a complete joke for the entire JPR run. But somehow they came together and did a better job than the 'better options' of what the Jays are capable of getting now.

 

Before this year, I would've put AA ahead of JPR, even though he had achieved worse results, but the plan and system seemed to be working better and seemed to be built for longterm success.

[EdelweissBouquet]

" His "big splash" off season didn't work out either (Scott Rolen, BJ Ryan, "

 

Roland and ryan didn't work out ? Roland played a great 3rd base,and ryan was fantastic , until he got injured. Maybe the contract he got was unacceptable but their performance when healthy was very acceptable.

Blame cannot be put on JP for player injuries.

[Convo]

If this poll was made in March 2013 it would be 95%+ AA

[jaysblue]

" His "big splash" off season didn't work out either (Scott Rolen, BJ Ryan, "

 

Roland and ryan didn't work out ? Roland played a great 3rd base,and ryan was fantastic , until he got injured. Maybe the contract he got was unacceptable but their performance when healthy was very acceptable.

Blame cannot be put on JP for player injuries.

 

Rolen when healthy was great at third base, offensively and defensively. Ryan in 2006 had one of the best season's by a closer and still had a solid 2008 campaign. When healthy, he was dominant, though his contract was definitely ill-advisable.

 

I think JPR had a lot of bad luck during his tenure in Toronto. He put together some solid teams like mentioned, though a lot of contracts he dished out never worked.For example, Lyle Overbay get's so much hate on here, though he was awesome in 2006 - the Jays go out and sign him to a contract extension and he suffers a broken wrist that season which zaps out all his power and he's never the same. I mean who saw that coming. Same with a guy like Rios who was looking like one of the next upcoming young stars in the game.

[jaysblue]

If this poll was made in March 2013 it would be 95%+ AA

 

There were are a lot of posters (even prominent one's) on here praising AA before the season started, and it's funny how things change after one season.

[John_Havok]

I won't vote until AA's tenure is up.

 

I vote for a third option, AA did a better job, until he traded Napoli for Francisco. Pretty much everything since then has been herp, followed by derp after derp.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I vote for a third option, AA did a better job, until he traded Napoli for Francisco. Pretty much everything since then has been herp, followed by derp after derp.

 

I'd like to know what people's opinions are on what changed.

[TheHurl]

Hard to say. AA build a top 5 farm team, and when it was time for him to transition into a play off contender he fell apart and now we have no farm and are still out of the playoffs.

 

JP he was more of an all or nothing kind of guy which he put together some "solid" seasons but still no playoffs and never a thought at all about the farm system much it seemed.

 

Not going to vote on this one just pointing observations lol.

 

Either one of two things were true about AA:

 

He built up a farm with the intention of selling it off in trade

or

He had no real plan. He never thought about what happens when his 9 picks in the top 100 all have to be added to the 40 man at the same time. He never thought about having depth in a position and moving it. Hording assets with the plan that a percentage will fail, is still asset mis-management. Having so many fail is something completely different with an org wide philosophy issue.

[TheHurl]

I'd like to know what people's opinions are on what changed.

 

as I said...a lack of a plan. No clue how to put together a 40 man roster. Obsession with pitchers. In hindsight a lot of this stuff was there, we were blinded by this Ninja image. The minute he was in front of the camera more often (2012 season) it became more obvious that he wasn't this brilliant numbers guy which loved value. He didn't speak at all and let us convince ourselves every move was a good one. I remember when the Wallace for Gose trade happened. I was a big Wallace fan and my opinion on Gose has always been the same (that he can't make contact at a good enough rate to make his bat a positive value) but after the initial shock I justified the trade that the Jays got more athletic and were building up the middle. There were several no doubt moves like League for Morrow, While I still have Lawrie questions the trade for Marcum was solid, moving the Wells contract. But then he waited until guys like Hill, Snider and several of the prospects had no value before moving them, all the while having internal question marks about the players.

[TheHurl]

If this poll was made in March 2013 it would be 95%+ AA

 

There was a small anti-AA movement around mid-season 2012.

[EdelweissBouquet]

Well said.

[Abomination]

I'd like to know what people's opinions are on what changed.

 

I think he realized that most of the talent in the farm wasn't going to pan out, at least not along the specified timeline. With the pressure from Rogers to produce he didn't really have the option of a second rebuild. It didn't appear that we were a preferred destination for FA's, so he traded. In a few years (assuming he can get us in the playoffs and isn't fired), he'll probably take over as president and someone else will rebuild.

 

Really, in spite of a fairly high ranked farm, it hasn't produced a whole lot. With 2 or 3 exceptions, most of what we traded away looks like we made the right decision on.

[kgm1]

I'd like to know what people's opinions are on what changed.

 

What Changed . Quite simple ,Rogers with a hockey strike looming and Beeston pointing out the state for the Red Sox and Yankees told AA to go all in . Now everyone blames AA cause it backfired . He was the darling of the media after the deals and now he is the goat and Rogers/Beeston are asking WTF AA .

 

Only way AA saves his career now is to really go all in and that will probably set this team back for 5 years .

[ElNik2013]

What Changed . Quite simple ,Rogers with a hockey strike looming and Beeston pointing out the state for the Red Sox and Yankees told AA to go all in . Now everyone blames AA cause it backfired . He was the darling of the media after the deals and now he is the goat and Rogers/Beeston are asking WTF AA .

 

Only way AA saves his career now is to really go all in and that will probably set this team back for 5 years .

 

 

 

I could be wrong, but didn't AA say that he called the Marlins to continue talks that had started in July about JJ and it was the Marlins who brought up Buehrle and then Reyes? If this is the case, it may not jibe with saying that he was pressured into going all in. And even if he was pressured to compete in 2013, it doesn't excuse him for not even trying to sign free agents, even if he had to overpay, instead of overpaying in terms of $ and prospects.

[o2cui2i]

I wouldn't say small. A lot of people on this forum spent the 2012 season realizing that AA wasn't who they thought he was.

 

my question would be more about how much pressure Beeston put on AA to change his plans. AA went from slow, steady, stay the course to the deck chairs flying around the Titanic over night.

[John_Havok]

I'd like to know what people's opinions are on what changed.

 

I think it's one of two things, either he got so much pressure from the top to go for it in the next 3-4 years while the FO expected a window of opportunity where the other top teams in the division were expected to be declining and he felt the need to add big names to do so and completely abandoned his value-oriented approach from before, or as Hurl pointed out, he never really had a plan to begin with except for the obvious needs to get rid of the Wells contract.

 

It's really mind boggling that he spent those first 3 seasons making the team younger, acquiring undervalued assets with big upside and then went 180 degrees in one offseason.

[o2cui2i]

I think it's one of two things, either he got so much pressure from the top to go for it in the next 3-4 years while the FO expected a window of opportunity where the other top teams in the division were expected to be declining and he felt the need to add big names to do so and completely abandoned his value-oriented approach from before, or as Hurl pointed out, he never really had a plan to begin with except for the obvious needs to get rid of the Wells contract.

 

It's really mind boggling that he spent those first 3 seasons making the team younger, acquiring undervalued assets with big upside and then went 180 degrees in one offseason.

 

I think AA was pressured by Beeston who, as amazing as it sounds, knows less about baseball than AA. if the jays dont pull a miracle out of their ass next season I expect that both of them will be gone.

[GeorgiaPeach]

If Beeston had any say or push on Alex in on field moves, I absolve Alex of a large chunk of the blame.

 

A non-baseball friendly President needs to set his priorities straight and worry about Bobble head promo days & Jr. Jays kids running the bases.

 

If he wants to impose his non-baseball mind on the GM, then he should come out and say, "we're changing our team direction to be just like the Phills & Angels, because we have a muppet fanbase and I'm trying to sell tiketz."