Can Ryan Goins stick?

[GD]

A 21 page thread dedicated to Ryan f***ing Goins lol.

 

I know....just....wow

 

I guess this thread has caused some.. havok. Anyone? Anyone?

 

 

Seriously though. It's amazing how a hot start can so drastically alter opinions.

[John_Havok]

It only alters opinions of those who base their opinions on small sample sizes, smaller sample sizes, even smaller sample sizes.

 

The chances of Goins being even an average offensive player in the majors after the kind of minor league career he's had is remote at best. Is he capable of making adjustments? Well sure, every player in the game is physically capable of making adjustments, but whether or not they are successful at it is another issue.

 

So far Goins has looked like he's capable defensively at 2b, carries himself well and doesn't seems to be very awestruck by being in the majors, which is good. His numbers are a regression waiting to happen, with a .400 avg on a .460 babip, an unsustainable LD rate and no power whatsoever, which is bad. And the bad, very much outweighs the good.

[GD]

This is 100% reasonable and what a lot of people have been trying to say already.

 

The real problem is, is that he will continue to play way over his head through the month of September. AA and Gibbons will declare our 2B hole filled, and Goins will be our starter next season. He will proceed to s*** the bed and we will have an Eric Thames situation again.

 

The difference is, with Thames, we had Rajai and Snider who could play LF, who were at least above replacement level / LUNCHBOX OMG. We don't have anyone else at 2nd base.

 

 

 

Guys, there's a really good chance that by the 40 game mark next year, Mike McCoy will be our 2nd basemen. Take a moment to consider that.

[GD]

I imagine Izturis would take over after Goins fails

 

.... I would rather McCoy.

[GNick]

Goins make better shortstop where his defense is solid

[flafson]

Even if Izturis or anyone else comes back, unless Goins is seriously terrible offensively, i don't see why he would be replaced.

If Goins can get .250 he should play next season unless we are able to get Cano or someone similar which isn't likely.

[DuckDuckGose]

Even if Izturis or anyone else comes back, unless Goins is seriously terrible offensively, i don't see why he would be replaced.

If Goins can get .250 he should play next season unless we are able to get Cano or someone similar which isn't likely.

 

Kawasaki has a better chance at being the starting 2B in 2014 IMO. At least he is much more likely to be an above replacement level player in 2014.

 

Goins has been too old for the level the whole way up the prospect ladder. The only thing he really has going for him is a decent performance in a cup of tea in the MLB level and decent K and walk rates. I would still need to see a lot more and over a much larger sample to be comfortable with Goins as the 2B next season.

[flafson]

Kawasaki has a better chance at being the starting 2B in 2014 IMO. At least he is much more likely to be an above replacement level player in 2014.

 

Goins has been too old for the level the whole way up the prospect ladder. The only thing he really has going for him is a decent performance in a cup of tea in the MLB level and decent K and walk rates. I would still need to see a lot more and over a much larger sample to be comfortable with Goins as the 2B next season.

 

I agree, it's between Goins and Kawasaki right now.

[John_Havok]

I agree, it's between Goins and Kawasaki right now.

 

Neither of which should make a Jays fan happy.

[theblujay]

This is 100% reasonable and what a lot of people have been trying to say already.

 

The real problem is, is that he will continue to play way over his head through the month of September. AA and Gibbons will declare our 2B hole filled, and Goins will be our starter next season. He will proceed to s*** the bed and we will have an Eric Thames situation again.

 

This is so ridiculous. You seriously don't want him to play well because you're afraid that will happen? I don't even know what to say. If this org does give him a shot next year then obviously they saw something in him that's promising. Just because Thames flopped doesn't mean we have to be afraid of the same exact thing happening every time. Insane...

[theblujay]

90 wRC+ in AAA as a 25 year old. Don't be fooled by a SSS in one weeks worth of games. All his stats are un sustainable

 

I know. That's been written 10 times. We've been through this so many times, he's probably nothing. But you didn't respond to my post... This org is bad, but they're not out to get you and your Sabr pals.

[Caper]

90 wRC+ in AAA as a 25 year old. Don't be fooled by a SSS in one weeks worth of games. All his stats are un sustainable

 

Really? You think a .353 batting average is unsustainable? Nice observation.

[theblujay]

If he's "probably nothing", why the f*** would you feel comfortable with him as starting 2B next season? That's exactly why I don't want him to do well, because he's "probably nothing" and if he does decent AA and Gibbons will crown him with 2B duties.

 

If he's the starting 2B next year I won't be too upset for two reasons. 1: that means the FO saw something in him to out him there. Even though you guys think AA is some maniac out to get you for using advanced stats, he's not. Goins=/Thames. 2: That means our money has been used in other positions, like C, LF and SP so having a 2B with good D and below avg bat isn't too big a deal

[theblujay]

Our front office also sees something in players like Thames, Cordero, Arencibia, Sierra. I'm not too excited about them seeing something in Goins. He's a non prospect 25 year old, he should be used as AAA depth.

 

Our FO also saw something in Morrow, Bautista, EE... It goes both ways. (In before someone thinks I'm comparing Goins to one of them). Like I said many pages back Goins would be great for the mike mccoy role, with upside of an everyday starter.

[theblujay]

And why would you want a Mike McCoy type player starting on this team? Are you obsessed with mediocrity or what

 

I don't. If Goins ends up being nothing more than McCoy 2.0 then that's fine. He's a solid backup that can play good D. If he can make some adjustments and work from a solid approach and become an average-below average hitter then he could be a solid 2B

[havok24]

Our FO also saw something in Morrow, Bautista, EE... It goes both ways. (In before someone thinks I'm comparing Goins to one of them). Like I said many pages back Goins would be great for the mike mccoy role, with upside of an everyday starter.

 

Bautista and Edwin were JPR guys. AA did DFA Edwin a few years back.

[theblujay]

If we go into 2014 with him as 2B, and he fails, who plays second? Izturis? McCoy? Kawasaki?

 

There's no way Goins becomes an average hitter in this league

 

He doesn't need to be an average hitter to be a starter.

 

If Goins is the starting 2B going into the season I'll be very surprised unless he shows the FO something special in the rest of the year. And in that case I think it's worth a shot.

[theblujay]

Goins, terrible bat + good d is a bench player at best. He should not be starting second base next season.

 

Ok let's say the FO goes completely insane and overreacts and puts Goins at 2B to fail next year. Lets say he's completely replacement level, 0 WAR. That a 2-3 win upgrade over this year with no money spent. And that's worst case scenario.

[theblujay]

And this brings everything back to the Thames situation. Thames/Goins has a good September, labelled a starter next season. Thames/Goins fails, and we are left with a blackhole at the position.

 

But Goins appears to be a great defender at a position that isn't all bat.

[theblujay]

You are comparing the players, not the situation

 

Yeah, that's what we should be doing. AA is evaluating a player, not a situation.

[theblujay]

Why would you want another replacement level player at 2B? Fill the god damn hole.

 

Dude, read. I don't want that. That's worst case scenario

[Smokey]

This org is bad, but they're not out to get you and your Sabr pals.

 

If he's the starting 2B next year I won't be too upset for two reasons. 1: that means the FO saw something in him to out him there. Even though you guys think AA is some maniac out to get you for using advanced stats, he's not. Goins=/Thames.

 

This organization is bad but somehow you wont mind them handing the starting job to Goings because that would mean they saw something in him??? WOW

[theblujay]

This organization is bad but somehow you wont mind them handing the starting job to Goings because that would mean they saw something in him??? WOW

 

Yeah like I said I don't think AA and co. are out to get us. If Goins is the starting 2B next year there are two reasons I'm on with it that I posted earlier.

[theblujay]

It seems clear that that's what you want.

 

Why would I want the worst case scenario? I want Goins to succeed, unlike some people here.

[theblujay]

The player is a 25 year old non prospect, no bat and maybe good D. He should not be starting 2B next season.

 

Ok that's your evaluation. You'd make a better gm than AA I guess

[theblujay]

This is my favorite thread

[Smokey]

If Goins can get .250 he should play next season unless we are able to get Cano or someone similar which isn't likely.

 

Of course, because our only choices are a 6-7 war superstar or a replacement level player and nothing in between. More great logic from MR Flufsan.

[GD]

Of course, because our only choices are a 6-7 war superstar or a replacement level player and nothing in between. More great logic from MR Flufsan.

 

There really isn't much in between, lol.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=2b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=1142,2073,1830,1717,589,548,8585,1861,81,1066,2041,950,3269,1591,5248,906,3174,1572,2434,3708,1825,1392,4251,1443,4727,4191,4166,4792,88,818,520,4747,3255,6141,1573,144,1945,432,918,607,1609,470,656,826,2234,1702,332,242,1930,2161,8027,4556,4810,395,3190,25,8610,4885,1737,3035,6035,3057,3179,1556,1766,1638,1617,2129,3231,934,8252,1738,443,746,1176,1429,1824,7619,166,2579,6073,5557,1417,3704,3469,3867,2197,4606,3707,8259,1135,1488,454,1935,3882,2140,1286

[theblujay]

what do you think he is? You are evaluating him based on 1 weeks worth of BABIP fueled playing time

 

I think he's most likely a solid bench player who can fill in around the infield with good D. But I don't rule out the possibility that he's a solid starting 2B if he can hit a little bit.

[GD]

24 f***ing pages for Ryan Goins, you guys.