Can Ryan Goins stick?

[Caper]

That's such a lazy and stupid point. Like bringing up Bautista and Edwin to support a ridiculous claim that some other 28-year old schmuck is about to break out because, hey, who knows?

 

I don't know about Bautista. Edwin always looked really, really good when he was on.... on absolutely lost when he was off (like it was mental).

 

I only liked Yan Gomes because he was smashing the ball in spring training.... which can be pretty meaningless. I got the same type of excitement with Jim Negrych.

 

But as I think about Gomes now, in hindsight. The fact that he took up the game late as a kid.... the fact that he spent most of his college and minor league career as a backup...... he was always behind in AB's... and that meant something.

[gruber92]

They were really positive for Hechavarria too. And a lot of other below-average players. Hurl brought Betancourt up a few days ago, but I remember watching a Mariners broadcast when he was just breaking in and they called him a magician with the glove. He had that reputation coming up through their system. The

point: people can't really evaluate defense.

 

 

Point is,if a player in a defensive position has shown and has proven he can play plus defense, combined with a small sampling of offense to go with, he's definitely worth the look.

[Nox]

Point is,if a player in a defensive position has shown and has proven he can play plus defense, combined with a small sampling of offense to go with, he's definitely worth the look.

 

He has not shown and has certainly not proven that he can play plus defense.

[gruber92]

He has not shown and has certainly not proven that he can play plus defense.

 

Really? I guess playing defense in the minors is easier then. What a retarded statement.

[gruber92]

But he hasn't proven that he can play plus defense, and we know his offense is going to be well below-average.

 

All reports on Goins' defense has been plus. I've watched him play a few times in Buffalo and always been slick with a great arm. So far up here he's shown to have great middle infield fundamentals. IMO, it's his offense that's in question. I always thought this was a given with Goins.

[Nox]

Really? I guess playing defense in the minors is easier then. What a retarded statement.

 

Defensive scouting reports in the minors are next to useless due to the complete inability to scout range. You're literally better off regressing to the mean 100% than using any defensive scouting reports.

[Nox]

I've watched him play a few times in Buffalo and always been slick with a great arm. So far up here he's shown to have great middle infield fundamentals.

 

Sounds like a defensive scouting report. AKA, no mention of the most important attribute. Which is probably wise because you can't possibly deduce it on your own (and neither can a set of "trained" eyes). You'd just fall victim to attribute substitution and project based on something loosely related.

[gruber92]

See my post above. It happens all the time that players who draw rave reviews from scouts for their defense are actually below-average defensively. The human eye is really, really bad at evaluating defense, and everything we've heard about Goins' defense is pretty meaningless.

 

Jeter is one of the worst defensive shortstops ever and people who have seen him hundreds of times think he's elite.

 

Understood. Time will tell I guess, but what do you think of his defense so far from what you've seen?

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Excuse me sir, but I think you may have been dropped on your head as a young child.

 

Ryan Goins is 25 years old and he had an 89 wRC+ in AAA this year. Digest that information for a minute, and then tell me you honestly think he's a major league starter.

 

Truthfully, Melky and Lind would both very probably be much better options at their respective positions than Goins would be at 2B. 2B is as glaring a hole as C and SP.

 

C - top priority due to weakness of current player and position trickle down effect on starting rotation. A one year vet stop gap would be fine.

SP - co-top priority due to glaring overall weakness and lack of depth.

2B - near top priority due to weakness of current penciled in starter (Mouser). Goins and Kawasaki provide decent depth, but neither are major league starters. Izturis should probably be let go in the offseason, since both Kawasaki and Goins would be better bench players (they can actually play SS).

DH/LF - upgrades highly recommended if there are enough funds. Worst case scenario, Lind and Melky should be below average but positive contributors in 2014 (assuming some leg health bounce back from Melky).

 

Also, great job with " innefinciancies"

 

Reality check. You are way out of line as are the usual crew on here who are like a roving mob of stats heros who seemingly lack real perspective. How many times do one of you decide an idea about a player or a trade are absurd because some stat is pulling at your head ? Seriously, get real, if the Jays can get by on one "weakness" they can address other weaknesses first. Who the hell knows if Goins can make it, but there is no reason to argue about whether he can in an insulting fashion.

 

The more people post on here the more the absurdity of the small world here is revealed. We have the Bobbsy Twins ( BTS and Boxcar ) insulting or threatening anyone who dares disagree with them. Just who are these people ? Well, we know that BTS is a self admitted ex-thug who is "reformed". Boxcar is some young adult who is considering going to trade school. Nothing wrong with these people based on that EXCEPT when they get insulting about others who are actually putting up very reasonable opinions on baseball. And let's be real, its baseball. Its not life.

 

Just about the worst post on here was from "The Hurl" who was supportive of BTS threatening to physically attack a poster with his lethal hands. Well, I suppose its debatable which of them was being a bigger dik, but there are lines that shouldn't be crossed.

 

Seriously, the little gang of stats bangers here that follow each other around congratulating each other and their crass posts is absurd. I don't really care who likes me in this little world, but it would certainly be a more realistic board if more people simply confronted these guys when they are being *******s on what seems to be a daily basis.

 

And to be 100% clear, the idea that the poster must have been dropped on his head to believe Goins has any chance to crack the lineup is STUPID. Worse players have had careers in baseball, and you cannot possibly tell whether he'll beat the odds or not.

[Laika]

Reality check.

 

Not really

[Nox]

Just about the worst post on here was from "The Hurl" who was supportive of BTS threatening to physically attack a poster with his lethal hands. Well, I suppose its debatable which of them was being a bigger dik, but there are lines that shouldn't be crossed.

 

Good to see nothing gets by you.

[DuckDuckGose]

Do you honestly believe Goins has a shot at being an above replacement level MLB player? At best he's the super utility Boni was supposed to be without the OF versatility.

[Nox]

Please try to leave my past out of this. I've come a long way.

 

At least you finally took down your old avatar of you wielding your 9 with your nose covered in a mysterious white substance. I ventured upstairs a while back to ask mother what that substance could be. I did not like what she implied you might be into.

[Boxcar]

Reality check. You are way out of line as are the usual crew on here who are like a roving mob of stats heros who seemingly lack real perspective. How many times do one of you decide an idea about a player or a trade are absurd because some stat is pulling at your head ? Seriously, get real, if the Jays can get by on one "weakness" they can address other weaknesses first. Who the hell knows if Goins can make it, but there is no reason to argue about whether he can in an insulting fashion.

 

The more people post on here the more the absurdity of the small world here is revealed. We have the Bobbsy Twins ( BTS and Boxcar ) insulting or threatening anyone who dares disagree with them. Just who are these people ? Well, we know that BTS is a self admitted ex-thug who is "reformed". Boxcar is some young adult who is considering going to trade school. Nothing wrong with these people based on that EXCEPT when they get insulting about others who are actually putting up very reasonable opinions on baseball. And let's be real, its baseball. Its not life.

 

Just about the worst post on here was from "The Hurl" who was supportive of BTS threatening to physically attack a poster with his lethal hands. Well, I suppose its debatable which of them was being a bigger dik, but there are lines that shouldn't be crossed.

 

Seriously, the little gang of stats bangers here that follow each other around congratulating each other and their crass posts is absurd. I don't really care who likes me in this little world, but it would certainly be a more realistic board if more people simply confronted these guys when they are being *******s on what seems to be a daily basis.

 

And to be 100% clear, the idea that the poster must have been dropped on his head to believe Goins has any chance to crack the lineup is STUPID. Worse players have had careers in baseball, and you cannot possibly tell whether he'll beat the odds or not.

 

I haven't even posted in this thread, dick. Leave me out of your little stat wars.

 

Also, Ryan Goins sucks. Just like Thames, Sierra and the other hundreds of guys not good enough to stick at the big league level.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

All reports on Goins' defense has been plus. I've watched him play a few times in Buffalo and always been slick with a great arm. So far up here he's shown to have great middle infield fundamentals. IMO, it's his offense that's in question. I always thought this was a given with Goins.

 

Who knows how he will do but on a team that has very few position prospects that make it and all the so far unwarranted hype about Gose I think its a breath of fresh air when one of these guys doesn't immediately fail on joining the team. Every time somebody does this it helps push the vets on a team that is far too comfortable being losers.

 

I would presume they'll fix whatever weaknesses based on what the market allows, and if 2B doesn't get addressed it isn't lethal if other trouble spots are taken care of. Lawrie solves part of their early season problems in my opinion, I think he'll have a huge year next season. I'd love to see Cano on this team but fiscally it might not be smart, really hard to say because it would be a huge upgrade at 2B. New CA and one very solid SP would go a long way towards fixing this team. Who knows what players will be interested in Toronto, but any hitter looking to upgrade their offence might like the Homer Dome ( aka Rogers Center ), and they might havea great offence next season with one major addition.

[Boxcar]

Please try to leave my past out of this. I've come a long way.

 

http://lulzshirts.com/sites/default/files/user_uploaded/thug%20life.jpg

 

BTW, where can I get a pair of those? Gangstaaaaaa

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

I haven't even posted in this thread, dick. Leave me out of your little stat wars.

 

Also, Ryan Goins sucks. Just like Thames, Sierra and the other hundreds of guys not good enough to stick at the big league level.

 

Stats wars ? I didn't post I believe in a week. However, the underlying tone of negativity on this forum continued, with support from a moderator.

And it is very clear there is a small mob of posters who feel controlling the discussions on here is their role. When a thread is dedicated to

trashing Goins, hardly an impact player and hardly failing in his little trial at the moment, it all gets very stupid.

[Boxcar]

Stats wars ? I didn't post I believe in a week. However, the underlying tone of negativity on this forum continued, with support from a moderator.

And it is very clear there is a small mob of posters who feel controlling the discussions on here is their role. When a thread is dedicated to

trashing Goins, hardly an impact player and hardly failing in his little trial at the moment, it all gets very stupid.

 

They are trashing the idea of Goins in a starting role on a supposedly competitive team.

[GD]

Well, we know that BTS is a self admitted ex-thug who is "reformed".

 

Looooooool

[theblujay]

Stats wars ? I didn't post I believe in a week. However, the underlying tone of negativity on this forum continued, with support from a moderator.

And it is very clear there is a small mob of posters who feel controlling the discussions on here is their role. When a thread is dedicated to

trashing Goins, hardly an impact player and hardly failing in his little trial at the moment, it all gets very stupid.

 

You're pretty much right, but don't bother arguing with them. Its you vs. all of them.

 

About Goins: I'm not sure how you guys immediately write him off completely after watching Izturis and Boni at 2nd all compiling negative WAR. Give the guy a chance.

[theblujay]

They are trashing the idea of Goins in a starting role on a supposedly competitive team.

 

How much worse can Goins be for a competitive team compared to Izturis was this year for us? And IIRC many people on here were ok with Izturis.

 

I'm not saying we should roll with Goins, but its funny how quickly you guys write him off.

[DuckDuckGose]

You're pretty much right, but don't bother arguing with them. Its you vs. all of them.

 

About Goins: I'm not sure how you guys immediately write him off completely after watching Izturis and Boni at 2nd all compiling negative WAR. Give the guy a chance.

 

He has a chance to be better than Boni or Izturis this year but, both those guys have been below replacement level. Their ineptitude does not make Goins a better prospect. Perhaps he is a bench guy or injury depth next year (I'd prefer to use Kawasaki on the bench).

[GD]

I'm not saying we should roll with Goins, but its funny how quickly you guys write him off.

 

We're not writing him off, lol. We're expecting him to be exactly what he's pretty much always been projected to be.

 

Best case scenario; Goins gets the starting job, rides a wave of Ruggiano-level BABIP luck with solid D forming a great season, AA is held at gunpoint to sell high and idek Burns is ready? It's just hard to imagine a scenario in which he's a legitimate starter/anything more than a pretty nice 25th man.

[Boxcar]

How much worse can Goins be for a competitive team compared to Izturis was this year for us? And IIRC many people on here were ok with Izturis.

 

I'm not saying we should roll with Goins, but its funny how quickly you guys write him off.

 

So because Izturis was monumentally bad, we should automatically give Goins a shot because he probably won't be worse? So you see the huge fault in your logic, or would you like me to point it out?

[DuckDuckGose]

So because Izturis was monumentally bad, we should automatically give Goins a shot because he probably won't be worse? So you see the huge fault in your logic, or would you like me to point it out?

 

Going to have to go outside the organization to fill the hole at 2B IMO. Even if Goins has the skills to eventually become a decent starting 2B it probably isn't next year and it doesn't mean he should be given a starting spot. Besides there is nothing wrong with making Goins earn playing time. You cannot win a WS without solid up-the-middle talent and although solid defensively there are much better players and options available to the Jays. Goins doesn't fit in as a starter if AA wants to contend.

[theblujay]

So because Izturis was monumentally bad, we should automatically give Goins a shot because he probably won't be worse? So you see the huge fault in your logic, or would you like me to point it out?

 

That's not what I'm saying. I'm what did Izturis offer at the beginning of this year that Goins doesn't right now?

[KingKat]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm what did Izturis offer at the beginning of this year that Goins doesn't right now?

 

Izturis looked like a strong candidate to bounce back offensively from last year's career lows. He's been a good OBP guy in the past. Unfortunately, he followed last year's career lows with even lower career lows this year but no one knew he would be this bad. He was drawing Scutaro comparisons in the off-season.

[Caper]

But he hasn't proven that he can play plus defense, and we know his offense is going to be well below-average.

 

 

No. You don't know that. You think that and you have solid evidence to back that assertion up. You don't know it.

 

You know about as much as you KNEW Yan Gomes would turn into an absolute strike out machine once pitchers decided to start throwing him breaking balls.

[Howard Roark]

I've seen maybe 9 innings of Jays ball in the last two weeks lol.

 

Whenever I find myself at home lately when they're playing they're on in the background on mute while I listen to music on my laptop while playing Civ 5. I look up at the tv maybe once every 5 minutes, so same here probably.

[gruber92]

Keep it going kid..