"Toronto is a scouting based organization...one dimensional" - John Farrell

[Spoonovic]

ox manager John Farrell took questions from an audience at a seminar this week, including one about the difference between the Blue Jays and Red Sox: specifically, whether Farrell had noticed a difference in how the organizations develop pitchers.

 

The big trades weren't a part of the question, but the answer provided big-picture relevance.

 

"We can have a seminar on this question — not just because it's Toronto and Boston," Farrell said. "There are very distinct differences and it starts, I think it starts, at the top. And the reason I say that: I found Toronto to be a scouting-based organization, which to me is on one plane, one-dimensional. You're looking at tools. Here, it's a player-development based system. It's the paths of the individuals that are running the organization. And that's not to be critical.

 

"We all know that there's three different veins in this game that people advance (through): baseball operations, scouting, player development. Well, in the player-development vein, you're going to look at things in three dimensions: mentally, physically, fundamentally to address and develop people, or develop an organization. I think as a scouting base, you go out and you evaluate the physical tools. And that's kind of where it ends, or that's the look at that time. That was my experience, that was my opinion."

 

You knew this already, even if Farrell framed it nicely: the success of the Red Sox starts with Cherington. Boston's front office operates with a rare effectiveness. Farrell deserves heaps of credit, too, but he's been provided the right pieces.

 

From this article:

 

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2013/08/boston_red_sox_los_angeles_dod.html

 

 

Hmm interesting. Thoughts?

[Angrioter]

.................and Farrell is smart. Sad but true

[Angrioter]

"We all know that there's three different veins in this game that people advance (through): baseball operations, scouting, player development. Well, in the player-development vein, you're going to look at things in three dimensions: mentally, physically, fundamentally to address and develop people, or develop an organization. I think as a scouting base, you go out and you evaluate the physical tools. And that's kind of where it ends, or that's the look at that time. That was my experience, that was my opinion."

 

Dickey for Noah Syndergaard

[KingKat]

The Red Sox and Dodgers are in first place. The Blue Jays are in last. One American League East team's mega-deal has worked thus far, and the other's has not.

 

 

Comparing the Red Sox and Blue Jays sides of their respective deals doesn't make sense. What the Red Sox did is what the Marlins did. Find a taker for their contracts and maybe pick up some useful pieces at the same time.

 

What the Blue Jays did is more like what the Dodgers did and there's all sorts of reasons why the Blue Jays (or anyone else for that matter) shouldn't operate like the Dodgers.

[ace3113]

AA is like a zombie: "TOOOOLSSSS....TOOOOOLSSSS..." [cue involuntary drooling]

[Buster]

Can't so much of this be simply blamed on our minor league system doing a poor job of developing players?

[Boxcar]

If the success of the Red Sox starts with a guy who doesn't understand DIPS or the value of relief pitching then they're f***ed.

lmao @ Boston media, judging Cherington's success based on results rather than process. That's so one dimensional.

 

As for Farrell, he's a goddamn douchebag liar. How can these comments not be critical? We all knew this piece of information for awhile now anyway.

[eastcoastjaysfan]

If all of those toolsy, forgettable OFers (Alford, Anderson, Davis etc) were in the Cards/A's/Rays system they'd all probably be in the bigs or knocking on the door of being a top 100 prospect by now.

 

Seems like very few of our players have any basic fundamental abilities by the time they get to the higher levels. They just take high risk players and throw them at the wall hoping they'll stick.

 

There is no plan. If someone still shows absolutely nothing in the minors (Gose) they'll get promoted based on them passing the "eye test" in the past. The kids in the system have no idea where they'll be in a year. They have no idea what is rewarded or valued within the system.

 

It's just like a bunch of random guys with peach fuzz doing a bunch of random things.

[Angrioter]

If all of those toolsy, forgettable OFers (Alford, Anderson, Davis etc) were in the Cards/A's/Rays system they'd all probably be in the bigs or knocking on the door of being a top 100 prospect by now.

 

Seems like very few of our players have any basic fundamental abilities by the time they get to the higher levels. They just take high risk players and throw them at the wall hoping they'll stick.

 

There is no plan. If someone still shows absolutely nothing in the minors (Gose) they'll get promoted based on them passing the "eye test" in the past. The kids in the system have no idea where they'll be in a year. They have no idea what is rewarded or valued within the system.

 

It's just like a bunch of random guys with peach fuzz doing a bunch of random things.

 

 

Syndergaard 2012 - Good prospect (Jays).

Syndergaard 2013 - Elite prospect (Mets).

[Frenchsoup]

If all of those toolsy, forgettable OFers (Alford, Anderson, Davis etc) were in the Cards/A's/Rays system they'd all probably be in the bigs or knocking on the door of being a top 100 prospect by now.

 

Seems like very few of our players have any basic fundamental abilities by the time they get to the higher levels. They just take high risk players and throw them at the wall hoping they'll stick.

 

There is no plan. If someone still shows absolutely nothing in the minors (Gose) they'll get promoted based on them passing the "eye test" in the past. The kids in the system have no idea where they'll be in a year. They have no idea what is rewarded or valued within the system.

 

It's just like a bunch of random guys with peach fuzz doing a bunch of random things.

 

You should be able to teach fundamentals and situational play, this organization doesn't seem to do a very good job at it though.

[Errorcebia]

Terrible manager, but he's right about this. Blue Jays cannot and will probably never again develop elite major league talent.

[TheHurl]

Will be interested to see the media/blog community reaction to this. It's something that many on the forum began to realize last year and was met with some negativity but most that came over to this forum are now in agreement but on Twitter and the blogs it's not being seen nearly as much.

[Angrioter]

Look at rankings of Jays prospects going into 2011 or 2012. It's comical. Basically anyone who is still ihighly-regarded is with another team, and almost everyone the Jays have kept busted.

 

What ECJF said about no idea of what is rewarded or valued makes a lot of sense. I think there is a big disconnect between the scouts, the MiLB coaches, the players, and the front office. Everyone does things their own way because there isn't a common message being spread.

 

Aaron "the last coke in the desert" Sanchez and some guys..

 

The others teams can evaluate our players better than us, and maximize their true potencial.

[DuckDuckGose]

Terrible manager, but he's right about this. Blue Jays cannot and will probably never again develop elite major league talent.

 

Edwin, Jose and Lawrie are waving at you.

[DuckDuckGose]

Will be interested to see the media/blog community reaction to this. It's something that many on the forum began to realize last year and was met with some negativity but most that came over to this forum are now in agreement but on Twitter and the blogs it's not being seen nearly as much.

 

It's true that the Jays rely on scouting very very heavily. It's not true that the different branches of the Jays are looking at different things. There is an organizational philosophy it just doesn't happen to be an educated, well-rounded plan. Boom or bust philosophy and talent in the system.

[DuckDuckGose]

Here's John Sickels Top 24 Jays Prospects for 2011.

 

Bolded are guys who still have lustre. Bolded and capitalized are guys who have lustre and are still with the organization. Clearly an absolutely abysmal track record, and yet no signs of them being willing to change approach.

 

1. Drabek

2. LAWRIE

3. McGuire

4. Stewart

5. Wojo

6. Perez

7. SANCHEZ

8. Arencibia

9. D'Arnaud

10. Gose

11. Thames

12. Syndergaard

13. Thon

14. Sweeney

15. Murphy

16. Handsome Jake

17. Jenkins

18. Hech

19. Knect

20. Alvarez

21. HUTCH

22. CARRENO

23. Farina

24. Nicolino

Also considered: Ahrens, Cardona, Cooper, Dyson, Emaus, Hawkins, Hobson, Jeroloman, Jimenez, Mastro, McDade, Mills, Pierre, Sierra, Taylor, Webb

 

I'm thinking you missed a couple there. I can see why you'd exclude them but, if they have a chance to be decent MLB player's still they have lustre IMO.

[KingKat]

I made a few assumptions for sure. Hutch is still pretty highly-regarded, he could count.

 

Gose is a relative bust IMO, can you see him becoming a good starting player? Carreno and Wojo are possible middle-relief/fifth starter options, I think they can be classified as busts.

 

Guys who get traded along with a million other guys for J.A. Happ don't count. Hutch is awesome though. He's never been hyped but he's achieved at every level including MLB.

[GD]

Who's the last hitter the Jays have drafted/signed, and then had produce at the Major League level for them over multiple seasons (i.e., no Hill or Rios)?

 

Maybe Wells and Delgado, and that was eons ago.

 

Erm, uh, Adam Lind? Fuuuuck.

[GD]

Lind has had one year as a first-division player, so he falls into the Rios/Hill camp. It's been well over a decade since the team has had a homegrown consistently good hitter.

 

My god is that depressing.

[Olerud363]

That's another thing I hate about the article. They pass Cherington off as some sort of baseball genius. Which of their good players did he acquire exactly? The Dodgers trade isn't enough to write a whole resume.

 

Napoli, Drew, Gomes, Victorino, Carp, Dempster, Uehara. 13 WAR without giving up one young player, or draft pick. Brilliant. 13 WAR and they still have all their top prospects.

 

Reyes, Johnson, Melky, Dickey, Buerhle, Boni, Thole - ~ 3 WAR giving up all the top prospects.

[Angrioter]

Who's the last hitter the Jays have drafted/signed, and then had produce at the Major League level for them over multiple seasons (i.e., no Hill or Rios)?

 

Maybe Wells and Delgado, and that was eons ago.

 

Hill, Wells, Delgado, Shawn Green, Rios, Lind

[GD]

Napoli, Drew, Gomes, Victorino, Carp, Dempster, Uehara. 13 WAR without giving up one young player, or draft pick. Brilliant. 13 WAR and they still have all their top prospects.

 

Reyes, Johnson, Melky, Dickey, Buerhle, Boni, Thole - ~ 3 WAR giving up all the top prospects.

 

To be fair, at least some of that has to be that Boston has a better reputation than Toronto in baseball. If the Jays take that route, who's to say if we get them for the same price, or at all? I dunno, it might just be me remembering us getting burned by Beltran.

[BlueJayWay]

Not surprising.

[Stangstag]

Napoli, Drew, Gomes, Victorino, Carp, Dempster, Uehara. 13 WAR without giving up one young player, or draft pick. Brilliant. 13 WAR and they still have all their top prospects.

 

Reyes, Johnson, Melky, Dickey, Buerhle, Boni, Thole - ~ 3 WAR giving up all the top prospects.

 

Hindsight

[Olerud363]

To be fair, at least some of that has to be that Boston has a better reputation than Toronto in baseball. If the Jays take that route, who's to say if we get them for the same price, or at all? I dunno, it might just be me remembering us getting burned by Beltran.

 

Definately a good point. there's no guarentee they come... but then again it was only a few years ago that Burnett, B.J. Ryan, Frank Thomas came. One could argue those were overpays. I don't know... All Boston's pickups were buy low... There is luck involved.

 

What I like to see is two paths. Bidding for 2nd tier free agents and international players (Darvish, Puig, Chapman etc.) that are available for only money. Then develop the farm concurrently. Don't burn the farm...

 

This season is so tragic. After this disaster it is hard to see Toronto as being "the place to be" anytime soon...

[Olerud363]

Hindsight

 

Not really hindsight. The point is that if it didn't work out Boston still has their young players. There is luck involved. But Boston had a strategy that didn't absolutely have to work, but it did.

 

The Jays had a strategy that absolutely had to work (given the cost in young players) and it didn't.

 

Now things are worse. Boston is even more entrenched as "the place to be" and Toronto is a mess.

[Angrioter]

And the Red Sox aren't getting an extraordinary return for those guys, all are producing at the level you'd expect if not a little worse.

 

but..............................Red Sox have one of the best farm system at baseball and a bunch of money to spend.

 

Whitney Houston "Jay have nothing, nothing, nothing"

[Olerud363]

From this article:

 

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2013/08/boston_red_sox_los_angeles_dod.html

 

 

Hmm interesting. Thoughts?

 

My thought is that "the top" doesn't refer to AA or Cherington. The top is above that. For Boston the top is John Henry. He's got a background as an asset trader, and is a brilliant guy. In Toronto the top is really Beeston... and you know what I think of him.

 

I suspect Farrell is referring to Beeston as the top.. though I don't know for sure.

[GD]

Definately a good point. there's no guarentee they come... but then again it was only a few years ago that Burnett, B.J. Ryan, Frank Thomas came. One could argue those were overpays. I don't know... All Boston's pickups were buy low... There is luck involved.

 

What I like to see is two paths. Bidding for 2nd tier free agents and international players (Darvish, Puig, Chapman etc.) that are available for only money. Then develop the farm concurrently. Don't burn the farm...

 

This season is so tragic. After this disaster it is hard to see Toronto as being "the place to be" anytime soon...

 

International free agency (the Puigs and Chapmans, and even the Barretos and Jimenezes) and decent FA's while building the farm is the way to go imo. No stupid buys.

[Olerud363]

but..............................Red Sox have one of the best farm system at baseball and a bunch of money to spend.

 

Whitney Houston "Jay have nothing, nothing, nothing"

 

This should be posted on every door in the Jays baseball operations offices. Plastered everywhere on Beeston's office. Maybe someone could hack into Beeston's computer and make this the screen saver.