Cleveland broadcasters rip the blue jays franchise (again)

[Olerud363]

This happened in April. I can't remember the exact date but some Cleveland people ripped on the Blue Jays early... semi-calling the disaster of the season that would follow.

 

I was listening to the Cleveland broadcast thursday and in the middle of the game one of the broadcasters launched into a critique of the blue jays....

 

1. The blue jays players don't play the game the right way.

2. They do not grind out at bats... (this was also mentioned by Boston broadcasters)... Franco and Farrell LOVE to face this team.

3. There was never a reason to think this team would win... toronto management acquired older players whos value was destined to crash.

4. Management never considered injury history when constructing the team (Jose Reyes was brought up: injury not a fluke)

 

I know Cleveland media ripped the blue jays early in the season. Calling the front office arrogant. Very interesting. Cleveland media does not like or respect the blue jays organization (neither does Boston media).

 

There is a Toronto/Cleveland connection in that Jordan Bastian used to work for Toronto and now is mlbs media guy for Cleveland.

 

I wonder if he's given the other Cleveland guys an inside scoop on the organization?? Just speculation.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Olerud363

[Fredwick]

Sounds right on the money to me.

[Fredwick]

Btw I am a frustrated Blue Jay fan , and sometimes you have to face the facts!

[Angrioter]

Sounds right on the money to me.

 

Do you like Metallica?

What is your favorite song?

[Olerud363]

Sounds right on the money to me.

 

Below is a link to the djf summary of the other attacks by Cleveland broadcasters on Toronto... I can verify that the Cleveland broadcasters do not like the toronto organization at all. After re-reading the djf report it would seem Farrell is likely the source, not Bastian.

 

It seems to me John Farrell feels he was mistreated. I suspect there is much more to the Farrell story then "Dream Job", Farrell is still budy, budy with Cleveland broadcasters, and it is obvious they feel he was mistreated in Toronto.

 

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2013/05/02/farrells-treatment-a-travesty-and-smug-blue-jays-cant-lose-enough-says-cleveland-radio-broadcaster/

[eastcoastjaysfan]

At the end of the day, they live in Cleveland...and we... don't.

 

We win

[Olerud363]

At the end of the day, they live in Cleveland...and we... don't.

 

We win

 

maybe... it depends what other activities you enjoy rather then baseball. Cleveland is enjoying an exciting summer of pennant race baseball. Something no Blue Jay fan under 25 has ever experienced. As an avid baseball fan is life in Cleveland following a pennant race better then life in Toronto following... this mess??

 

I agree for the average person life is much better in Toronto... but for people who aren't well rounded and are just insane and obsessive about baseball.. life is probably better in Cleveland.

[eastcoastjaysfan]

maybe... it depends what other activities you enjoy rather then baseball. Cleveland is enjoying an exciting summer of pennant race baseball. Something no Blue Jay fan under 25 has ever experienced. As an avid baseball fan is life in Cleveland following a pennant race better then life in Toronto following... this mess??

 

I agree for the average person life is much better in Toronto... but for people who aren't well rounded and are just insane and obsessive about baseball.. life is probably better in Cleveland.

 

I'd like to hope that people have other acitivites in their lives aside from cheering for a baseball team.

 

Cleveland is a dump. Hard to take these people seriously.

[Holden Caulfield]

Cleveland is the trashiest, filthiest, most disgusting city I've ever been in and all the games I've been to at Progressive Field have had Marlins-level attendance.

[Holden Caulfield]

Why is it Cleveland's place to discuss this though? Shouldn't they be concerned with their own futility? They'll fade in the dog days of summer just like they do every year.

[Knights4Cup]

I'd like to hope that people have other acitivites in their lives aside from cheering for a baseball team.

 

Cleveland is a dump. Hard to take these people seriously.

 

Why does that matter? This is baseball discussion and they're valid points. Being under 25, I envy the success that even the Cleveland Indians have had over the past 20 years. That doesn't mean I want to live there.

[Buster]

The performance and attitude of the Blue Jays is analogous to the performance and attitude of Toronto. (I've lived in Toronto, amongst many other places, and I've been a huge Jays fan for decades).

 

Saying "we are world series contenders" is like Toronto saying "we are a world class city".

 

If it's true, you don't need to say it.

[BlueJayWay]

This happened in April. I can't remember the exact date but some Cleveland people ripped on the Blue Jays early... semi-calling the disaster of the season that would follow.

 

I was listening to the Cleveland broadcast thursday and in the middle of the game one of the broadcasters launched into a critique of the blue jays....

 

1. The blue jays players don't play the game the right way.

2. They do not grind out at bats... (this was also mentioned by Boston broadcasters)... Franco and Farrell LOVE to face this team.

3. There was never a reason to think this team would win... toronto management acquired older players whos value was destined to crash.

4. Management never considered injury history when constructing the team (Jose Reyes was brought up: injury not a fluke)

 

I know Cleveland media ripped the blue jays early in the season. Calling the front office arrogant. Very interesting. Cleveland media does not like or respect the blue jays organization (neither does Boston media).

 

There is a Toronto/Cleveland connection in that Jordan Bastian used to work for Toronto and now is mlbs media guy for Cleveland.

 

I wonder if he's given the other Cleveland guys an inside scoop on the organization?? Just speculation.

That doesn't sound all that much off the mark exactly. Except for that first one...using the "doesn't play the game the right way" seems like a ******** dump.

[Olerud363]

Why is it Cleveland's place to discuss this though? Shouldn't they be concerned with their own futility? They'll fade in the dog days of summer just like they do every year.

 

It seems they have a bone to grind based on someone elses assessment of the organization. At first I speculated perhaps Bastian had some inside info... but it seems obvious looking at the DJF report from May that Farrell talked to them.

 

They really don't like Toronto... listening to the broadcast it wasn't your typical critique.

 

Most times broadcasters will feel sorry when a team is underperforming... like Buck and Pat will always say it would be great to see Kansas City return to glory... the franchise is a real good one and the people deserve a winner.

 

These guys talk about Toronto failing with glee... that Toronto (atleast Toronto managment) deserves this. They have inside info, probably coming from Farrell.

[Olerud363]

That doesn't sound all that much off the mark exactly. Except for that first one...using the "doesn't play the game the right way" seems like a ******** dump.

 

Not in this case. This was the game where Rajai Davis air mailed one to home on a play where a guy was trying to score on a single from third. He had no chance of getting the runner, and allowed another guy to score. They really went on about that.

 

They also were stunned that Toronto was swinging at their rookies early offerrings. They were quite proud of their team for taking a lot of pitches

[Olerud363]

Cleveland is the trashiest, filthiest, most disgusting city I've ever been in and all the games I've been to at Progressive Field have had Marlins-level attendance.

 

Toronto is a big rich city. You don't appreciate that until you've spent time in other places. There is no reason this team shouldn't be having success every single year.

 

The fact that Cleveland is successful and Toronto is not should embarass Beeston and AA. Apparently it doesn't. Great job boys... let Cleveland have their pennant race, we'll get em next year, or the year after that, or the year after that.

[Olerud363]

Interesting point. I didn't know that.

 

Where can you find that data?? I can't find it for the life of me... though I can find almost anything else you'd want to know on Fangraphs and such.

[Abomination]

Interesting point. I didn't know that.

 

Where can you find that data?? I can't find it for the life of me... though I can find almost anything else you'd want to know on Fangraphs and such.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2013-pitches-batting.shtml

[Arkadium]

I will say the pitchers per plate appearance thing is stupid and everyone needs to stop talking about it. The Jays are tied for 5th in baseball in P/PA and yet people both here and in the media keep ripping them for not taking pitches. Stop. The Jays sometimes have trouble scoring because of a talent deficiency (JPA, Boni, some others just can't hit), it has nothing to do with patience.

 

Thanks!

[Olerud363]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2013-pitches-batting.shtml

 

I would never of guessed this. Interesting.

[Arkadium]

I would never of guessed this. Interesting.

 

Incase you're wondering who's skewing it, Pit/PA

 

Bau - 4.22

Kaw - 4.12

JPA - 3.98

DeRosa - 3.93

EE - 3.90

Lawrie - 3.84

Melky - 3.77

Boni - 3.65

Davis - 3.55

Izturis - 3.42

Reyes - 3.42

 

I think the only shocking one is JPA near the top, but I don't think it's because he's patient, it's because he hacks and fouls a lot. I don't mind Izturis/Reyes having low Pit/PA because they tend to make good contact.

[Smokey]

 

I think the only shocking one is JPA near the top, but I don't think it's because he's patient, it's because he hacks and fouls a lot.

 

IMO this has a lot more to do with pitchers refusing to throw him a strike than it does with him fouling off pitches.

[Arkadium]

IMO this has a lot more to do with pitchers refusing to throw him a strike than it does with him fouling off pitches.

 

Also good point

[fapaholic]

Hmm, interesting. You'd think that a high P/PA would lead to a higher number of total PA and a higher OBP, hopefully at least.

 

Yet the Jays are only middle of the pack in those categories.

[kcjaysfan]

While I don't disagree with their points in general, I do take exception to number 4. Saying that Reyes' injury was not a fluke is nothing short of ridiculous. They're conflating any sort of injury he suffers while engaging in baseball activities with his relatively higher rate of injuries sustained throughout his career. An analogy is someone who can study all they want, but is a very bad test taker, then when they oversleep one morning and fail a test, saying it's because they're not good a taking the test, not because they forgot to set their alarm, something utterly and completely unrelated to their ability to take a test.

[Buster]

IMO this has a lot more to do with pitchers refusing to throw him a strike than it does with him fouling off pitches.

 

Is there a single home run that JPA has hit that isn't a mistake pitch?

 

Bautista and EE and good hitters can see a good pitch in the strike zone and crank it. But I think that JPA probably only hits mistake pitches. Am I right?

[Olerud363]

While I don't disagree with their points in general, I do take exception to number 4. Saying that Reyes' injury was not a fluke is nothing short of ridiculous. They're conflating any sort of injury he suffers while engaging in baseball activities with his relatively higher rate of injuries sustained throughout his career. An analogy is someone who can study all they want, but is a very bad test taker, then when they oversleep one morning and fail a test, saying it's because they're not good a taking the test, not because they forgot to set their alarm, something utterly and completely unrelated to their ability to take a test.

 

I recall people like Will Carroll have shown that injuries are correlated... even if they are seemingly different injuries.

 

Some guys ligaments and bones are just stronger, some guys are more graceful, some guys take less chances. Reyes allready had a similar ankle injury earlier in his career. His ankle ligaments just might not be that strong compared to the force his fast, fast, twitch muscles put on them.

 

Lawrie has allready had ribs on both sides injured in seemingly "fluke" plays. Travis D'arnaud has something different happen every 2 weeks seemingly.

 

So my understanding is injury distribution isn't random. So there is always a threat a guy like Reyes will go down with something...

[Olerud363]

IMO this has a lot more to do with pitchers refusing to throw him a strike than it does with him fouling off pitches.

 

And this is where you need a team of interns to pour over the data and get it to people who have AA/Mottola/Gibbon's ear.

 

Not to say the Jays aren't doing this. We assume their not because the last hitting coach, who mentored JP through his formative years, didn't appear remotely able to digest such info... but who knows.

[Olerud363]

To parse this a little more look at just the American League stats

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2013-pitches-batting.shtml

 

Now they are still 5th but out of 14. They are also very close to average. They much closer to average then to the leaders (Boston). They are closer to last then to Boston.

 

Also they are near the bottom in 3-0 and 2-0 counts seen.

 

So...

 

1. It is more accurate to say the Jays are average in pitches seen, then good in this area.

2. They are below average in 3-0 and 2-0 counts seen.

3. so the boost in pitches seen is seemingly due to more strikes seen.

 

However the original point was that the Jays don't "work the count", I guess they do work the count, at least as much as average. They work a lot more 0-2 counts then 2-0... but taking pitches isn't necessarilly the problem... more recognizing pitches, which is an inherent talent (like speed) more than a learned skill.

[TheHurl]

This is Hamilton and Rosenhaus, what they say truly doesn't matter. True Indians baseball fans care what they say as much as we care about Buck and Tabby (so they choose not to felate players and managers on other teams). Only thing I didn't like from this was that they were making direct quotes and then using "They", have some balls and name the people