The official "Dustin McGowan for starter" thread

[ElNik2013]

Pitch fx has it as a 2 seam fastball I guess. Oh and the 4 seemed topped out at 98.81 tonight....

 

http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=14069115&topic_id=&c_id=mlb&tcid=tw_video_14069115

 

 

I thought it was a 2-seamer just by watching on tv, but it had the look of a splitter no doubt. Nasty stuff this guy throws, what the f*** are they gonna do once Santos comes back? Imagine if the Delabar program helps both Santos and McGowan stay healthy, lol...so many good relievers, there's gotta be a gm out there who will give you a position player for one, hasn't there? Anyway, if I was JJ/Morrow, I'd be all over that Delabar programme.

[mtljaysfan]

I'm all for strechting him out gradually a la Esmil Rogers.

[ElNik2013]

They could start this on Sunday. Go with a Redmond/McGowan piggyback. Try and squeeze 3 out of Redmond and then give McGowan 3. Next turn you start McGowan and go from there. I would definitely ask McGowan though and if he's on board, you do it. If this works out, it would open up a spot in the bp for Santos.

[fatcowxlive]

I think you let him keep getting longer and longer relief appearances. So, build up to using him in three- or four-inning stints. The bullpen doesn't have a longman right now with Rogers in the rotation, develop him into that. Then if he proves he can handle being a longman, give him a five-inning spot start and see how he responds.

 

Make him Rogers 2.0. 50-60 pitch count, then 70 pitch count, then 90, then unlimited if he passes

[Chappy]

They could start this on Sunday. Go with a Redmond/McGowan piggyback. Try and squeeze 3 out of Redmond and then give McGowan 3. Next turn you start McGowan and go from there. I would definitely ask McGowan though and if he's on board, you do it. If this works out, it would open up a spot in the bp for Santos.

 

I suggested this earlier tonight. It would make sense to try. At least give him 2 innings and if he gets through it efficiently then try for 3.

[Boxcar]

On a team full of insufferable douchebags, McGowan is such a great story and a guy you really want to pull for.

[fatcowxlive]

On a team full of insufferable douchebags, McGowan is such a great story and a guy you really want to pull for.

 

Was my 2nd favorite pitcher behind Doc back when he was called up!

[Abomination]

I was thinking about this, this morning, the Jays should piggy back McGowan with a lefty, either Loup or Perez and run with it. It's the only way he'd be able to be stretched out. I still don't understand why McGowan wasn't stretched out in the fist place, the Doctors even told the FO that it's more wear on his arm using him multiple times and that the starting role was a more realistic/proper fit. At the money we have him on contract, and if his arm did blow up per se...so be it. So much more value having D-Mac start.

 

I suspect the Jays were concerned about him struggling during the rehab assignment as a starter, and then having a big issue on what to do with him. I think the first step was to get him back, healthy, and confident. I mean, he's pitched so little in the last few years it isn't funny. Pitchers who throw 200 innings still have occasional problems with mechanics and stuff, let alone one who's thrown about 30 in the last 5 years. The second step (possibly next spring) would be to stretch him out.

[Chappy]

I suspect the Jays were concerned about him struggling during the rehab assignment as a starter, and then having a big issue on what to do with him. I think the first step was to get him back, healthy, and confident. I mean, he's pitched so little in the last few years it isn't funny. Pitchers who throw 200 innings still have occasional problems with mechanics and stuff, let alone one who's thrown about 30 in the last 5 years. The second step (possibly next spring) would be to stretch him out.

 

This is the more logical approach. I am sure many of us would like to see McGowan start over some of the guys who have been given a chance, but realistically if this team wants to have a chance next season, the best thing right now would be to stick with what is working for McGowan. Let him build his confidence, get a decent amount of relief innings under his belt and then go from there.

 

He could also be an option for a late inning role next season if AA decides to deal Janssen to save some $$ and acquire other movable assets.

[Jimcanuck]

he's finally healthy, has found something that works.... a shutdown reliever, a guy you can bring in with the bases loaded, nobody out, game on the line, and strike out the side

 

leave him be FFS

[Boxcar]

he's finally healthy, has found something that works.... a shutdown reliever, a guy you can bring in with the bases loaded, nobody out, game on the line, and strike out the side

 

leave him be FFS

 

Your dumn

[Atothe]

What? Waste of valuable innings with a skillset like his. I bet you think Chapman is better as a reliever too

[Dr. Dinger]

Chapman has two pitches. That's why he's a reliever.

 

Horseshit. Chapman is a closer because Dusty Baker is senile. Those two pitches are two of the best pitches in baseball.

[Abomination]

Chapman has two pitches. That's why he's a reliever.

 

Halladay was basically a 2 pitch pitcher, so was Randy Johnson. Yeah the each HAD another pitch or two, but they didn't throw them much.

[Abomination]

Halladay only had 2 pitches? You off your meds?

 

He was basically fastball / curveball. He had a change, but it was basically for show and thrown very rarely (and wasn't really very good anyway). He didn't really add the splitter until he went to the Phillies (in exchange for the change). Now if you consider the cutter and sinker to be additional pitches, then fine. Realistically he had several variations of a fastball and the curve when he pitched for us.

[Jimcanuck]

Your dumn

 

Really? Because I'd rather not risk the health of a guy that has a chance to be one of the best RP in baseball by trying to stretch out his rather fragile arm to be a starter?

 

Why don't we stretch out Debabar at the same time.

 

Douche

[KSaw]

Pete Walker recently compared what's going on with McGowan to how John Smoltz was handled when he returned from injury. Smoltz spent time as a closer, quite a bit of time actually. Smoltz had trouble with the touch on his offspeed stuff and stamina/ arm strength was a concern. McGowan is using all of his pitches which indicates that he'll start again at some point but while he has shown excellent movement and sharpness to his breaking stuff, he has shown that there's little command at this point. He is missing spots and living on his fastball and on hitters chasing and on luck.

 

Watch McGowan and you'll see sliders snap off but miss. You can see his face when he misses the corner by several inches and he's not happy. He's not far off but he's not there. He'll freeze a guy with something filthy and back door and slightly miss. Well that's an out pitch if he's on. He just isn't ready yet. He needs to find that touch and then you can stretch him out. I think if it happens this year, it's a gift. By next Spring is more likely.

[KSaw]

He was basically fastball / curveball. He had a change, but it was basically for show and thrown very rarely (and wasn't really very good anyway). He didn't really add the splitter until he went to the Phillies (in exchange for the change). Now if you consider the cutter and sinker to be additional pitches, then fine. Realistically he had several variations of a fastball and the curve when he pitched for us.

 

I hear what he's saying. At times Halladay would have 120 pitch outings and throw 95 cutters. It would seem like he only had 2 pitches. He actually has a straight change, which is really a palm ball, a slow splitter that he learned with Toronto but started to use more in Philly, a 2-seam fastball, a 4-seam fastball which he used a lot early in his career and rarely uses now and two different curve balls, one being a 12-6 like Chris Carpenter's and a slurve.

 

He has all of those but he simply throws so many cutters, it's hard to notice the other pitches.

[KSaw]

Oh ya, Doc will also throw a cutter and take a ton off it and use that as a change too. Forgot about that.

[IBTrini]

This is the more logical approach. I am sure many of us would like to see McGowan start over some of the guys who have been given a chance, but realistically if this team wants to have a chance next season, the best thing right now would be to stick with what is working for McGowan. Let him build his confidence, get a decent amount of relief innings under his belt and then go from there. He could also be an option for a late inning role next season if AA decides to deal Janssen to save some $$ and acquire other movable assets.

I believe McGowan would be better than some of the guys the Jays were trotting out there however I agree with this approach. McGowan is on the mend and since they have invested so much time and energy into his come-back it would be in their interest not to rush it right now - He needs to get comfortable throwing off the mound in game situations once again so stretching him out slowly makes a lot of sense to me.

[Boxcar]

Really? Because I'd rather not risk the health of a guy that has a chance to be one of the best RP in baseball by trying to stretch out his rather fragile arm to be a starter?

 

Yes.

 

"Why don't we stretch out Debabar at the same time."

 

He's never been a starter, and I'd be worried about his elbow holding up. If the Delabar program is any indication, it looks like McG's shoulder is a lot stronger now. Him hitting 98 after all his shoulder issues is unheard of.

[Caper]

Pete Walker recently compared what's going on with McGowan to how John Smoltz was handled when he returned from injury. Smoltz spent time as a closer, quite a bit of time actually. Smoltz had trouble with the touch on his offspeed stuff and stamina/ arm strength was a concern. McGowan is using all of his pitches which indicates that he'll start again at some point but while he has shown excellent movement and sharpness to his breaking stuff, he has shown that there's little command at this point. He is missing spots and living on his fastball and on hitters chasing and on luck.

 

Watch McGowan and you'll see sliders snap off but miss. You can see his face when he misses the corner by several inches and he's not happy. He's not far off but he's not there. He'll freeze a guy with something filthy and back door and slightly miss. Well that's an out pitch if he's on. He just isn't ready yet. He needs to find that touch and then you can stretch him out. I think if it happens this year, it's a gift. By next Spring is more likely.

 

Good post. I agree. Hope to god he stays healthy... keep him on the weighted balls all winter and hope he can come back as a starter.

[Abomination]

Here's an interesting Sportsnet article on DMac and starting. Of particular note is that McGowan says he isn't sure if the program is helping his velocity or not, but that it's significantly helping his shoulder strength and arm recovery in between appearances.

 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/davidi-jays-not-rushing-mcgowan-into-rotation/

[G-Snarls]

Here's an interesting Sportsnet article on DMac and starting. Of particular note is that McGowan says he isn't sure if the program is helping his velocity or not, but that it's significantly helping his shoulder strength and arm recovery in between appearances.

 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/davidi-jays-not-rushing-mcgowan-into-rotation/

 

He needs no help in the velocity department

 

It's the arm a d shoulder health that matters

[Atothe]

The Yankees must have been senile for a couple decades too then?

 

One guy can't throw 95 mph cutters for 100-110 pitches a game for 17 years. Thats all types of arm suicide. Plus he failed as a minor league starter so that point is moot. Chapman learns one more pitch and it becomes an average to plus pitch then he is a superstar starter. Stop selling Chapman short because you only ever seen him as a reliever

[Boxcar]

I'm not selling anyone short. He's a reliever because he only throws two pitches. He's not going to have success as a starter trying to go 3-4 times through an order regardless of how filthy his fastball and slider are.

 

In 2002, Randy Johnson threw 260 innings, and struck out 334 batters.

 

He threw a four seam fastball 54.9% of the time and his slider 41.9% of the time. The last 3 percent was a combination of changeups and splitters.

 

Maybe you don't consider throwing two pitches 97% of the time rather than 100 being a "two pitch pitcher" though. Who knows.

[John_Havok]

In 2002, Randy Johnson threw 260 innings, and struck out 334 batters.

 

He threw a four seam fastball 54.9% of the time and his slider 41.9% of the time. The last 3 percent was a combination of changeups and splitters.

 

Maybe you don't consider throwing two pitches 97% of the time rather than 100 being a "two pitch pitcher" though. Who knows.

 

Exactly when the two pitches you do have are arguably the two best pitches in baseball, you can probably get by

[Boxcar]

Cherry pick all the stats you want. Johnson had a 5-6 pitch repertoire,Chapman has 2. Three, i guess, if you count the s***** change up that he rarely uses and has a hard time throwing strikes with.

 

Are you actually this dumb? I just quoted you exact percentages of which pitches Johnson used. He threw either a four seam fastball or a slider NINETY SEVEN PERCENT OF THE TIME. Does this register at all? He only started throwing more pitches as he got older. If you can strike out 380 batters in one year with two pitches, I'd say Chapman's limited repertoire is the last thing holding him back.

[dineke]

I can't believe a potential superstar starting pitcher is getting wasted in the bullpen. I blames this on AA for not signing him.

[Boxcar]

" I'd say Chapman's limited repertoire is the last thing holding him back."

 

Of course you would. You know much more than anyone in the reds organization. Dusty Bakers mental heath aside.

 

IGNORE THE EVIDENCe! Don't let that get in the way of your opinion!