Murphy Effect??

[GeorgiaPeach]

In fairness pulling more doesn't mean not ever to go the other way,, pulling more is smart if the pitch warrants it, maybe thats what he meant? Olerud finally became an elite hitter when he started pulling more.

 

You're right it doesn't mean to NEVER go the other way. But if its so minimally done, whats the point? Like if Enacarnacion or Arencibia have 5 hits in a year that go the other way, it isn't exactly showing that they're a spray hitter and the opposition would adjust.

 

Uh, no. Olerud got back to being an effective hitter again when he stopped being forced to predominantly pull the ball.

[Olerud363]

In fairness pulling more doesn't mean not ever to go the other way,, pulling more is smart if the pitch warrants it, maybe thats what he meant? Olerud finally became an elite hitter when he started pulling more.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Hitting-Edge-Tom-Robson/dp/073603336X#reader_073603336X

 

The forward is written by Olerud. He claims he was a opp-field, middle field hitter until 93. After 93 he got into bad habits trying to pull the ball. Doesn't blame the coaches... but I suspect he's just being classy. After meeting Tom Robson he got out of bad habits and almost won another batting title.

 

I listened to Jays games regularly in the mid 90s and many times heard Cito saying Olerud needed to pull more. A couple of times in particular stand out. In 96 I think Olerud won a game with a homer in extra innings... I remember the next day Cito gushing saying Olerud was starting to remind him of a left handed Joe Carter.... In 96 Olerud hit 14 first half homers and it looked like he might challenge 30 with the new "pull" approach. In the second half he only hit 4. I remember another time Olerud almost won it in extra inning again, with a huge drive that went foul into the fifth deck. I remember Cito also being proud of this. It was a strike, but Cito said he told Olerud what pitch to look for, and Olerud listened, and they almost won... it was a strike Cito!!!!

 

I also remember when Cito was hired as hitting coach in 99 there was a Shaun Green quote, that he wasn't going to change his style. Green was traded a month later anyway.

[Caper]

You're right it doesn't mean to NEVER go the other way. But if its so minimally done, whats the point? Like if Enacarnacion or Arencibia have 5 hits in a year that go the other way, it isn't exactly showing that they're a spray hitter and the opposition would adjust.

.

 

 

 

Yes EE should just retire.... I mean what possible success can he have if he's not willing to spray the ball all over the field?

[Metallijay]

http://www.amazon.com/Hitting-Edge-Tom-Robson/dp/073603336X#reader_073603336X

 

The forward is written by Olerud. He claims he was a opp-field, middle field hitter until 93. After 93 he got into bad habits trying to pull the ball. Doesn't blame the coaches... but I suspect he's just being classy. After meeting Tom Robson he got out of bad habits and almost won another batting title.

 

I listened to Jays games regularly in the mid 90s and many times heard Cito saying Olerud needed to pull more. A couple of times in particular stand out. In 96 I think Olerud won a game with a homer in extra innings... I remember the next day Cito gushing saying Olerud was starting to remind him of a left handed Joe Carter.... In 96 Olerud hit 14 first half homers and it looked like he might challenge 30 with the new "pull" approach. In the second half he only hit 4. I remember another time Olerud almost won it in extra inning again, with a huge drive that went foul into the fifth deck. I remember Cito also being proud of this. It was a strike, but Cito said he told Olerud what pitch to look for, and Olerud listened, and they almost won... it was a strike Cito!!!!

 

I also remember when Cito was hired as hitting coach in 99 there was a Shaun Green quote, that he wasn't going to change his style. Green was traded a month later anyway.

 

before 92, olerud used to always try to go opposite, it wasn't until he started pulling the inside pitch and going away when needed was when he became an elite hitter, pulling more does not mean never going opposite, it's about hitting it where it is pitched. Olerud pulled a tonne of balls in 92, he hit .363.

 

I agree that the orgs philosophy is flawed, but stating he was asked to pull more as an excuse why a hitter struggled is BS, sometimes you have to pull, if a hitter is not doing it it is a detriment, just like not going opposite if the pitch warrants.

 

Olerud tried to pull too much after 93... maybe. But it wasn't until he started being selectively aggressive that he became an elite hitter. Him getting too pull happy is a different thing all together.

[Metallijay]

The Jays currently lead the AL in homeruns, but are ahead of only Seattle and Chicago in runs scored/game :/

 

The team is built around the all or nothing Hr approach, it's great when it works, sadly it doesn't more often the not.

[gruber92]

I dont even understand why they kept Murphy around.

By hiring Motolla you're basically saying you think hes a better hitting coach then Murphy and even to some extent like his hitting philosophy more. It really makes no sense to keep this guy around and have him potentially speaking to some players and fogging the overall message. I mean they have him coaching 1B and thats the easiest job in the sport. Was AA too much of a wuss to just let Murphy go because it would upset Cito? Seems like the case.

 

Bingo 100%

 

AA is a pussy.

[Olerud363]

before 92, olerud used to always try to go opposite, it wasn't until he started pulling the inside pitch and going away when needed was when he became an elite hitter, pulling more does not mean never going opposite, it's about hitting it where it is pitched. Olerud pulled a tonne of balls in 92, he hit .363.

 

I agree that the orgs philosophy is flawed, but stating he was asked to pull more as an excuse why a hitter struggled is BS, sometimes you have to pull, if a hitter is not doing it it is a detriment, just like not going opposite if the pitch warrants.

 

Olerud tried to pull too much after 93... maybe. But it wasn't until he started being selectively aggressive that he became an elite hitter. Him getting too pull happy is a different thing all together.

 

I'd have to look at the spray charts sometime... I recall Olerud always using all fields. I remember him pulling homers with authority to right in 90-92. I always remember him being a all-fields hitter.

 

Then they tried to change him. And actually one of things that hurt Olerud was the strike. In 94 he was just getting hot when the strike hit. His final numbers were .297 12 67. But in a full season he might of crept over .300, got close to 20 homers, 100 rbis so it could of been .305 18 90 or something... which looks a lot better. Then the next year was a strike year two, with 18 games gone.

 

So without the strike seasons Oleruds numbers look better and the imrpession that he's struggling isn't so much. But by 96 I remember he was really trying to pull the ball. A lot of ground outs to the right side. That's my memory anyway. Be interesting to look the sprary charts sometimes, I am sure they are out there somewhere.

[Olerud363]

Bingo 100%

 

AA is a pussy.

 

I've said a few times that cronyism is a problem in this organization. And this is a prime example.

 

In this organization you don't hand in your blackberry. You don't give up your keys. You don't have your picture sent down to security with orders not to ever let you back in.

[gruber92]

Yup. Our 35 year old GM doesn't have the stones to tell a senior coach and a former decent player in Murphy that his income has been terminated. AA.. "how will Dwayne support himself and his grandchildren? I couldn't live with myself". The Cito factor also adds another dimension. AA has to realize that it isn't fair to Mottolla to still have Murphy around,especially around the players as much as he is. Do you honestly think Murphy is respectfully staying out of the younger,inferior Mottolla's way and let him do his thing?

 

No f***ing way,guaranteed.

[Tuco]

Yup. Our 35 year old GM doesn't have the stones to tell a senior coach and a former decent player in Murphy that his income has been terminated. AA.. "how will Dwayne support himself and his grandchildren? I couldn't live with myself". The Cito factor also adds another dimension. AA has to realize that it isn't fair to Mottolla to still have Murphy around,especially around the players as much as he is. Do you honestly think Murphy is respectfully staying out of the younger,inferior Mottolla's way and let him do his thing?

 

No f***ing way,guaranteed.

 

Yep its retarded.

You bring in Motolla because you believe hes either a.) a better hitting coach then Murphy or b.) hes more suited to the style you want to play.

Keeping Murphy around is just too weird and I'm sure guys who had success under him still consult him for his advice. So you could potentially have CM relaying one general message and then a few players going behind his back to secretely talk to Murphy. I mean they have the guy as a 1B coach which could be filled by just about anyone in the game of baseball. Reeks badly of AA not having the stones to fire the guy for whatever reason.

[Olerud363]

Yep its retarded.

You bring in Motolla because you believe hes either a.) a better hitting coach then Murphy or b.) hes more suited to the style you want to play.

Keeping Murphy around is just too weird and I'm sure guys who had success under him still consult him for his advice. So you could potentially have CM relaying one general message and then a few players going behind his back to secretely talk to Murphy. I mean they have the guy as a 1B coach which could be filled by just about anyone in the game of baseball. Reeks badly of AA not having the stones to fire the guy for whatever reason.

 

Someone linked to a Shawn Green story where Shawn was not allowed to go to the cage without Willie Upshaw. Something about... I don't even know. He went to get advice from Iorg or something??

 

Anyway maybe it's time to implement the same policy for DM. Not allowed around the cage.

[Olerud363]

Yup. Our 35 year old GM doesn't have the stones to tell a senior coach and a former decent player in Murphy that his income has been terminated. AA.. "how will Dwayne support himself and his grandchildren? I couldn't live with myself". The Cito factor also adds another dimension. AA has to realize that it isn't fair to Mottolla to still have Murphy around,especially around the players as much as he is. Do you honestly think Murphy is respectfully staying out of the younger,inferior Mottolla's way and let him do his thing?

 

No f***ing way,guaranteed.

 

If Murphy can't get another job... then there's something wrong with him. Can't get a job as a roving minor league hitting instructor somewhere?? Then maybe it's Murphy's fault. Not anything for AA to worry about it.

 

Maybe no organization in baseball will hire him because he's on the record saying on base percentage doesn't matter.

 

Blue Jays rule #87: Need to forever employee old road apples that don't believe in on base percentage because all other oranizations now believe in on base percentage and won't hire such road apples.

[Tuco]

Someone linked to a Shawn Green story where Shawn was not allowed to go to the cage without Willie Upshaw. Something about... I don't even know. He went to get advice from Iorg or something??

 

Anyway maybe it's time to implement the same policy for DM. Not allowed around the cage.

 

Murphy is a dinosaur. I posted a quote yesterday that has him straight up say OBP is overrated. This organization employed a guy who's statement prolly goes directly against what both the Yankees and Red Sox believe in. Then they decide hes not good enough for the job, but instead of let him go which most normal functioning organizations would do, they feel the need to keep him on in such a meaningless role?

 

I think it was Hurl that was saying sometime last season that theres lots of voices outside of AA's behind the scenes that really shouldnt be talking (Cito).

[kcjaysfan]

I'd have to look at the spray charts sometime... I recall Olerud always using all fields. I remember him pulling homers with authority to right in 90-92. I always remember him being a all-fields hitter.

 

Then they tried to change him. And actually one of things that hurt Olerud was the strike. In 94 he was just getting hot when the strike hit. His final numbers were .297 12 67. But in a full season he might of crept over .300, got close to 20 homers, 100 rbis so it could of been .305 18 90 or something... which looks a lot better. Then the next year was a strike year two, with 18 games gone.

 

So without the strike seasons Oleruds numbers look better and the imrpession that he's struggling isn't so much. But by 96 I remember he was really trying to pull the ball. A lot of ground outs to the right side. That's my memory anyway. Be interesting to look the sprary charts sometimes, I am sure they are out there somewhere.

 

I don't feel like studying for my final today, so I went and looked up his hit locations for 1992 through 1998. I used BR and they have the stats for balls pulled, hit up the middle, and to the opposite field, as well as "Unknown Loc." I ignored the last one and just used the first three. I used the ABs for each of the three classifications, assuming that means a ball was put in play in that direction, and for each location, took the ratio of ABs in that direction to total ABs in all three directions (again ignoring the unknown location). This is the top plot. I then calculated his BA in the three directions. This is the bottom plot. I also plotted his overall BA for the season.

 

http://s23.postimg.org/a74zhbj57/Olerud.jpg

[EdelweissBouquet]

""" “You can’t change these guys’ swings,” Murphy said. “Their swings are their swings. You can’t do much. You change a guy’s mechanics and by game time they revert back to what they were.""

 

 

So what's the problem? Murph said you can't change a players swing, so how

is this trying to change a hitters approach, swing,stance, aggressiveness ??

Seems to me the players are doing what they think is best.

[EdelweissBouquet]

What has this got to do with shawn green and JO being told to

pull the ball ?

And clemens did prove himself an ass, and i'm just guessing,and

probably a closet racist.

As far as clout goes, it shows what an organization Jays were,

at that time, backing a CY pitcher because of wins rather than ethics.

 

""" Come on Cito, Roger would've smashed your ass James Byrd stylie. ""

 

LOL way to go gibbers, might is right.

[GeorgiaPeach]

""" “You can’t change these guys’ swings,” Murphy said. “Their swings are their swings. You can’t do much. You change a guy’s mechanics and by game time they revert back to what they were.""

 

 

So what's the problem? Murph said you can't change a players swing, so how

is this trying to change a hitters approach, swing,stance, aggressiveness ??

Seems to me the players are doing what they think is best.

 

I think Murph's collecting his pay cheque. Cito was doing the same. You don't get a job in MLB, dictate instructions, sit on your hands and let things play out. You should be a little hands on and know what's going on. Unless the MGR needs to powertrip and a player out of town to Pittsburgh. Its too bad Cito couldn't stand up to Clemens back in the day. You ain't power-tripping on a HOF'er, that would've smashed Cito.

 

Ah, Cheeto.

[EdelweissBouquet]

Funny, thing is, in Shawn Green's book, he quotes directly from Gaston that he wanted Green to pull the ball more. Anyone who argues differently is a moron.

 

 

People can "" quote "anyone and anything they see fit to

bolster their point in a book.

I guess you believe everything you read.

[Respectimo]

When will we quit blaming Murphy for the offensive failures. Seriously.

[GeorgiaPeach]

People can "" quote "anyone and anything they see fit to

bolster their point in a book.

I guess you believe everything you read.

 

Just like I don't believe Toronto media were racist to Cito. There's nothing exists that they were. Its just a minority who has his race card reading and waiting, hot in his holster.

 

I've actually never seen a prominent figure in Pro sports cry racism as much as Cito. The guy's a 6'4" pile of crybaby.

[EdelweissBouquet]

I think Murph's collecting his pay cheque. Cito was doing the same. You don't get a job in MLB, dictate instructions, sit on your hands and let things play out. You should be a little hands on and know what's going on. Unless the MGR needs to powertrip and a player out of town to Pittsburgh. Its too bad Cito couldn't stand up to Clemens back in the day. You ain't power-tripping on a HOF'er, that would've smashed Cito.

 

 

 

 

Ah, Cheeto.

 

""Ah, Cheeto. "" You should do something about your lisp.

[GD]

People can "" quote "anyone and anything they see fit to

bolster their point in a book.

I guess you believe everything you read.

 

Lol, you ask for proof, and then vigorously deny it. You're really f***ing annoying

[Olerud363]

Hey that's great work.

 

So it looks like his pull percentage went down a bit from 92 to the big year in 93?? Is that correct??

 

That would go against the conventional wisdom that he learned to pull in 93. In 96 his pull percentage went way up otherwise it's pretty stable.

 

Olerud's 94 and 95 were typical for a hitter of his style in a down year. There was probably nothing "wrong", Guys bounce up and down a bit, and Olerud would bounce back up with Mets and Seattle...

 

A look at other elite line drive hitter's down years....

 

Goerge Brett age 25 .294 9 62

Will Clark age 29 .283 14 73

Mark Grace age 27 .273 8 58

[EdelweissBouquet]

Just like I don't believe Toronto media were racist to Cito. There's nothing exists that they were. Its just a minority who has his race card reading and waiting, hot in his holster.

 

I've actually never seen a prominent figure in Pro sports cry racism as much as Cito. The guy's a 6'4" pile of crybaby.

 

 

Unless we walk in a black man's shoes we won't detect subtle racism.

[Olerud363]

Lol, you ask for proof, and then vigorously deny it. You're really f***ing annoying

 

It must be a conspiracy. All these guys are out to get Cito for no reason. Or maybe because Bob McCowan paid them to.

[EdelweissBouquet]

Lol, you ask for proof, and then vigorously deny it. You're really f***ing annoying

 

 

Go piss up a tree, how the F is that proof ??

Are you F----ing kidding me ???

Reading a book is PROOF ???

LOL Go take a book to court, point out a quote

that the author says is true, and tell me how

that turns out for you.

 

Jeebus Creebus !! Some people !!!

[Olerud363]

People can "" quote "anyone and anything they see fit to

bolster their point in a book.

I guess you believe everything you read.

 

Why would green lie about this?? And Olerud too basically saying the same thing?? And if you search "Cito Olerud", "Cito Green", "Cito Snider", you find stories about each of them being told to pull the ball,.

[Olerud363]

If this was a court case I would dig up the 1990s Cito interviews especially around 96 and I know several times on the pregame show he talked about Olerud pulling the ball. I remember two cases in particular. One of them I believe was after a June 1st game (I didn't remember the exact date but think I

found the game on bbref) So if you can find the sun or star from June 2nd 1996 you might be able to find the quotes.

 

But you know what?? Newspaper articles from the 1990s don't seem to be on the net. So to settle this someone will have to do some research. If I can get access to these old newspapers I'll get you some quotes.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Why would green lie about this?? And Olerud too basically saying the same thing?? And if you search "Cito Olerud", "Cito Green", "Cito Snider", you find stories about each of them being told to pull the ball,.

 

Weird that Delgado was never forced to pull the ball. I wonder why?????

[EdelweissBouquet]

Why would green lie about this?? And Olerud too basically saying the same thing?? And if you search "Cito Olerud", "Cito Green", "Cito Snider", you find stories about each of them being told to pull the ball,.

 

When a person doesn't like someone,they usually don't say positive

things about them.

But think about it,did you hear anyone from the 89-93 teams say

anything damaging about cito? Did, molitor,alomar,winfield,henderson,

borders witt, henke,ward...if not, then WHY NOT ??

Whatever cito was telling the players in those years, must have worked,

and those players were OK with it.

Maybe green was butthurt at not being allowed a regular spot

on the WS winning team?

Green did very well under cito's tutelage,and as green got

older he got better,it had nothing to to with flourishing without

cito.

I heard carter wore cito's number after cito got fired to protest,

but then carter is black, it stands to reason why he'd back cito,

unlike the 2 white boys, or so i'm told.