Murphy Effect??

[Olerud363]

When Cito managed 2 teams to WS victories, his players hit for

good average, but he doesn't get any credit from some of you.

Yet when his players hit for low average, it's because of his swing

for the fences philosophy, a philosophy he didn't practice in 1989/94.

Now that he's not managing,his residual negative effects still affect current

players ? Yeah right..anyone who really accepts this excuse probably

has a life long scientology membership.

Why stop with hitting..lets blame cito for our pitching woes,also he's

the reason we still have artificial turf.

Face it, these players are just not that good, there have been some

dumb moves made and dumber to not make moves that were available

to AA in the off season.

In 1989, cito took over from J williams who had a 12-24 record <-- looks familiar ?

and guided the jays with a 77-49 record to win the AL east title. Cito won a few AL east

titles, but all went down hill after interbrew purchased the jays.

 

I've been through this many times. And I get angry because of it. Pat Gillick was the one who constructed those teams and fought Gaston on all kinds of issues. If it was up to Gaston alone The 92/93 blue jays would probably tried to hit 300 homeruns and won about 80 games.

 

Let's start with the basics. Pat Gillick leaves after 94, Cito has more power and....

 

1. Makes John Olerud a platoon player because he refuses to pull the ball... Olerud recovers his career with the Mets.

2. Team on base percentage starts dropping after Gillick leaves, reaches a low in 97. Only starts to recover when Gaston is fired.

3. Pat Gillick proves he can construct high on base percentage championship teams with 3 other organizations. Gaston is never hired by another organization.

4. Team on base percentage is OK in 98/99. Starts to drop again in 00/01 when Cito is rehired as hitting coach. They have to fire Cito as hitting coach after only 2 years.

5. Team on base percentage recovers somewhat in J.P. era. Team record in runs scored in 2003, good hitting team in 2006. Overall 2002-2007 team on base is OK. Not amazing but some good years and bad. Just a normal organization really.

6. Gaston rehired in 2008 as manager, stays as consultant after "clubhouse mutiny". Team on base percentage horrible since 2008.

 

The blue jays had high on base percentage teams in 1992/1993 because Pat Gillick created them and had a strong enough personality to deal with Gaston's garbage. Pat Gillick has created good hitting teams with many organizations and did so in 1992/93 despite Gaston, not with his help.

[Olerud363]

Source?

 

There are many quotes from Dwayne Murphy and Cito Gaston saying on base percentage is not useful. I'm not diggin them up right now, the quotes are well known. Maybe I'll find them later.

 

Saying literally "the entire organization doesn't believe on on base percentage" might not be true. What is true is that the organization is not able to construct a team with an on base percentage high enough to compete in the A.L. east.

 

I can't see how having Cito Gaston (consultant) and Dwayne Murphy (1st base coach) around helps to this end given Gaston and Murphy's record and statements. If they do care about on base percentage why are the keeping Gaston and Murphy around in positions where could conceivably still influence hitters??

[BlueJayWay]

I don't know if it's a Murphy Effect or just the kind of players they have. They've had the low avg low obp high power offense for quite a while. I'm still skeptical of the idea a hitting coach can actually change a player to that degree.

 

We could be the first team ever to lead the league in home runs and be last in runs scored

I'm just waiting for that to happen. It's the Blue Jays style of hitting, just taken to the utmost extreme. It would be pretty funny.

[ElNik2013]

I think we need to look at BA also. Colby Rasmus is hitting .237 and his OBP is .310, If he was hitting .260, his OBP would be around .330. Point is that he's walking at about a league average rate, so to me he has a BA problem. JPA on the other hand, has both problems, obviously his BB% is his biggest problem, but so is his low BA.

[o2cui2i]

every game we get to hear Buck and tabler talk about what makes the other teams hitter good(patient, takes lots of pitches, uses all fields, wont go out of the zone, putting a good swing on the ball, keeping hips closed, using their hands, not letting the pitcher beat them....

 

then they talk about our team. we dont want jpa clogging the bases, you have to go up there in attack mode, no reason to let the first one go, OBP isn't important, he's an RBI man, you dont want your best hitter slap hitting the other way.... WTF!!!

 

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130217170716/dragonball/images/a/a7/Draco-malfoy-facepalm.gif

[Metallijay]

every game we get to hear Buck and tabler talk about what makes the other teams hitter good(patient, takes lots of pitches, uses all fields, wont go out of the zone, putting a good swing on the ball, keeping hips closed, using their hands, not letting the pitcher beat them....

 

then they talk about our team. we dont want jpa clogging the bases, you have to go up there in attack mode, no reason to let the first one go, OBP isn't important, he's an RBI man, you dont want your best hitter slap hitting the other way.... WTF!!!

 

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130217170716/dragonball/images/a/a7/Draco-malfoy-facepalm.gif

 

HAHAHAm scary how obvious what the issue is, but the org just doesn't seem to grasp it.

[GeorgiaPeach]

This entire organization from Beeston and AA through to the minor league coaches does not believe in the usefulness of OBP as a stat. This is obviously a shame since maximizing OBP is the correct way to play the game.

 

I agree with the importance of getting on base. But these guys aren't even working at-bats to get in a position to still get a hit, they flail away at the ball. No one shortens their swings with two strikes, no one chokes up besides Kawasaki. Its all about how hard and how far they can hit the ball.

[Metallijay]

I think we need to look at BA also. Colby Rasmus is hitting .237 and his OBP is .310, If he was hitting .260, his OBP would be around .330. Point is that he's walking at about a league average rate, so to me he has a BA problem. JPA on the other hand, has both problems, obviously his BB% is his biggest problem, but so is his low BA.

 

YEs not hitting is also an issue lol.

[o2cui2i]

i agree with the importance of getting on base. But these guys aren't even working at-bats to get in a position to still get a hit, they flail away at the ball. No one shortens their swings with two strikes, no one chokes up besides kawasaki. Its all about how hard and how far they can hit the ball.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this

[GeorgiaPeach]

When Cito managed 2 teams to WS victories, his players hit for

good average, but he doesn't get any credit from some of you.

Yet when his players hit for low average, it's because of his swing

for the fences philosophy, a philosophy he didn't practice in 1989/94.

Now that he's not managing,his residual negative effects still affect current

players ? Yeah right..anyone who really accepts this excuse probably

has a life long scientology membership.

Why stop with hitting..lets blame cito for our pitching woes,also he's

the reason we still have artificial turf.

Face it, these players are just not that good, there have been some

dumb moves made and dumber to not make moves that were available

to AA in the off season.

In 1989, cito took over from J williams who had a 12-24 record <-- looks familiar ?

and guided the jays with a 77-49 record to win the AL east title. Cito won a few AL east

titles, but all went down hill after interbrew purchased the jays.

 

So what was Cito's instruction to Shawn Green & John Olerud? Stop spraying the ball all over the field and pull the ball.....Olerud's was following the 93 great season, because we all know his swing needed an overhaul.

 

As for the guys who hit for a good/great average then? You think Cito's gonna tell Robbie Alomar, Paul Molitor or Dave Winfield to start pulling the ball? They'd laugh in his f***ing face. And I still stand behind Roger Clemens getting his sorry race card pulling ass canned.

 

As for the players being not good, I disagree. Some of the players have the talent to be good, but they're just so goddamn stupid to make adjustments when the pitcher's made an adjustment and is burning them every time at the plate.

[o2cui2i]

So what was Cito's instruction to Shawn Green & John Olerud? Stop spraying the ball all over the field and pull the ball.....Olerud's was following the 93 great season, because we all know his swing needed an overhaul.

 

As for the guys who hit for a good/great average then? You think Cito's gonna tell Robbie Alomar, Paul Molitor or Dave Winfield to start pulling the ball? They'd laugh in his f***ing face. And I still stand behind Roger Clemens getting his sorry race card pulling ass canned.

 

As for the players being not good, I disagree. Some of the players have the talent to be good, but they're just so goddamn stupid to make adjustments when the pitcher's made an adjustment and is burning them every time at the plate.

 

baseball IQ and arrogance from the players are the big culprits in the demise of the 2013 jays

[Tuco]

There are many quotes from Dwayne Murphy and Cito Gaston saying on base percentage is not useful. I'm not diggin them up right now, the quotes are well known. Maybe I'll find them later.

 

Saying literally "the entire organization doesn't believe on on base percentage" might not be true. What is true is that the organization is not able to construct a team with an on base percentage high enough to compete in the A.L. east.

 

I can't see how having Cito Gaston (consultant) and Dwayne Murphy (1st base coach) around helps to this end given Gaston and Murphy's record and statements. If they do care about on base percentage why are the keeping Gaston and Murphy around in positions where could conceivably still influence hitters??

 

Here's some beauty quotes from a 2010 yahoo article.

 

“There’s no defense,” manager Cito Gaston said, “against the trot.”

 

“I think on-base percentage is an overrated stat,” Murphy said flatly. “Those guys getting on base, most of them aren’t getting them in. Give me somebody who drives them in after that. I need guys who can drive the ball.”

 

“You can’t change these guys’ swings,” Murphy said. “Their swings are their swings. You can’t do much. You change a guy’s mechanics and by game time they revert back to what they were. It’s the hardest thing to do. Guys are taught, ‘See the ball, let it travel,’ a lot of terms. Instead of, ‘Get ready, get a good pitch to hit and barrel it up."

 

"Murph’s a big believer in getting started early and letting it fly,” said Vernon Wells(notes), the club’s resurgent cleanup hitter. “If you know anything about him, he didn’t hold anything back at the plate. He expects the same out of us.”

[ElNik2013]

I said earlier, low BA is what has them at the bottom of the OBP leaderboard. They are middle of the pack in BB%, tied with the Orioles and Yankees, but they're almost last in BA. Lawrie is a concern, he's been hitting the ball hard in Boston, but only 1 hit to show for it. He's one of the guys counted on to provide an above average BA, but so far he's struggled and has struck way too much. The whole team has struggled, not even hitting career averages, not sure the former batting coach is to blame.

[Metallijay]

All the low averages are a killer yes, when your middle of the lineup consists of averages around .220, and its even worst with RSIP, your going to struggle.

[Olerud363]

I think we need to look at BA also. Colby Rasmus is hitting .237 and his OBP is .310, If he was hitting .260, his OBP would be around .330. Point is that he's walking at about a league average rate, so to me he has a BA problem. JPA on the other hand, has both problems, obviously his BB% is his biggest problem, but so is his low BA.

 

This is very true. And it is why Murphy and Cito are such polarizing figures. Their approach is aggressive pull hitting. The hitters lose a few points off their on base percentage because they walk less, then a few more because they never hit to the opposite field, or choke up. Double whammy to the on base percentage.

[TheHurl]

This thread was just screaming out to Olerud363

[Olerud363]

I said earlier, low BA is what has them at the bottom of the OBP leaderboard. They are middle of the pack in BB%, tied with the Orioles and Yankees, but they're almost last in BA. Lawrie is a concern, he's been hitting the ball hard in Boston, but only 1 hit to show for it. He's one of the guys counted on to provide an above average BA, but so far he's struggled and has struck way too much. The whole team has struggled, not even hitting career averages, not sure the former batting coach is to blame.

 

If there is truly a pattern of players not reaching there career averages then someone or something is to blame. Otherwise it should even out over time. Which it still might as the year goes on. We will have to see.

[Tuco]

This right here is f***ing disgusting. I couldn't believe what I was reading when I first saw this quote at the time. Just a stupid quote from a stupid man hired by the stupid GM of a stupid organization.

 

This organization is fundamentally flawed.

They almost disregard the hit tool and seem obsessed with "power" and "speed". We have a catcher who they have given the reigns to going forward who cant even man the position properly. Until some of these things change, I really dont think it matters who we aquire because playing a inefficient type of baseball just isnt built for constant success.

[EdelweissBouquet]

" So what was Cito's instruction to Shawn Green & John Olerud? Stop spraying the ball all over the field and pull the ball.....Olerud's was following the 93 great season, because we all know his swing needed an overhaul."

 

Post the link that shows a video or sound byte where Cito

says this to those two. And I don't want to here it from green

or JO,it has to be from cito and cito only, and only then will I

believe your story.

[BlueJayWay]

This organization is fundamentally flawed.

They almost disregard the hit tool and seem obsessed with "power" and "speed". We have a catcher who they have given the reigns to going forward who cant even man the position properly. Until some of these things change, I really dont think it matters who we aquire because playing a inefficient type of baseball just isnt built for constant success.

 

More and more I agree. I think the Jays aren't winning anything with JPA as the catcher. And there are a lot of other problems.

[Olerud363]

This organization is fundamentally flawed.

They almost disregard the hit tool and seem obsessed with "power" and "speed". We have a catcher who they have given the reigns to going forward who cant even man the position properly. Until some of these things change, I really dont think it matters who we aquire because playing a inefficient type of baseball just isnt built for constant success.

 

The Arencibia thing is kind of weird. Currently sporting a .250 on base average and 2-45 bb/k (apr.). No hit tool at all. Power yes. And obvious concerns about his defense. Yet he is on track to get more playing time then any catcher in blue jays history. He hits 3rd or 4th sometimes, he's DHd. And they refuse to bring up Thole.

 

It's like there saying "you can have suspect defense. You can have an on base percentage beyond bad, you can have a historically horrible k/bb ratio, but we will let you be a key part of the offense and play everyday."

[dineke]

All you need is power or speed to play on this team. AA doesn't give a s*** about anything else.

[GeorgiaPeach]

" So what was Cito's instruction to Shawn Green & John Olerud? Stop spraying the ball all over the field and pull the ball.....Olerud's was following the 93 great season, because we all know his swing needed an overhaul."

 

Post the link that shows a video or sound byte where Cito

says this to those two. And I don't want to here it from green

or JO,it has to be from cito and cito only, and only then will I

believe your story.

 

I apologize to all Toronto sports "fans"/people who go to games because their friends think its cool, but then stop going when they don't think its cool anymore......... for falsely accusing Cito Gaston of telling John Olerud & Shawn Green to not be spray hitters and to only pull the ball. I can't prove via sound byte or video that this occurred. I concede.

 

I'll offer up a similar challenge to you, and here it is:

 

Please provide irrefutable video or sound byte proof, of any member of the Toronto media using racial slurs or directly or indirectly saying anything racial to or inregards to Cito Gaston. If you can't I'm sorry, but Cito's claims will sit right there with the existence of the Easter Bunny.

Edited May 13, 2013 by GeorgiaPeach

[GeorgiaPeach]

" So what was Cito's instruction to Shawn Green & John Olerud? Stop spraying the ball all over the field and pull the ball.....Olerud's was following the 93 great season, because we all know his swing needed an overhaul."

 

Post the link that shows a video or sound byte where Cito

says this to those two. And I don't want to here it from green

or JO,it has to be from cito and cito only, and only then will I

believe your story.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/story/2009/04/02/sp-bluejays-clemens-gaston.html

 

Gaston, now in his second stint as Toronto's manager, told reporters that he suspects Clemens played a role in his firing the first time around in 1997.

"I wouldn't doubt that," Gaston said prior to Toronto's 8-5 loss to the Detroit Tigers at Lakeland, Fla.

"He is an ******* himself, a complete *******. I would say that loud right in his face. It is all about him, nobody else but him."

 

Gaston said Clemens worked to undermine his authority, once questioning a decision to leave pitcher Pat Hentgen in a game behind his back and in front of the team.

"Him and I had some words at one time and I still regret to this day that I didn't get right up in his face and challenge him," Gaston said. "It was one time he felt like I had left Pat Hentgen in a game too long.

 

"Now you ask Pat Hentgen what he thinks of him [Clemens]. It isn't too good, either."

 

 

Poor Cheeto. Cheeto spent how long with the Jays, and a player who spent two years with them had more clout with Jays MGMT.....hahahaha. And then after this incident, I'm sorry again, I don't have video evidence or a sound byte, but Cito claims he didn't get a managerial job because of racism....hahahahaha

 

The funniest thing of that article was 10 long years after the fact, Cito's like "I regret not having the balls to stand up to Roger, because you know..... I would've." Come on Cito, Roger would've smashed your ass James Byrd stylie.

[Captain Adama]

I apologize to all Toronto sports "fans"/people who go to games because their friends think its cool, but then stop going when they don't think its cool anymore......... for falsely accusing Cito Gaston of telling John Olerud & Shawn Green to not be spray hitters and to only pull the ball. I can't prove via sound byte or video that this occurred. I concede.

 

I'll offer up a similar challenge to you, and here it is:

 

Please provide irrefutable video or sound byte proof, of any member of the Toronto media using racial slurs or directly or indirectly saying anything racial to or inregards to Cito Gaston. If you can't I'm sorry, but Cito's claims will sit right there with the existence of the Easter Bunny.

 

Funny, thing is, in Shawn Green's book, he quotes directly from Gaston that he wanted Green to pull the ball more. Anyone who argues differently is a moron.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Funny, thing is, in Shawn Green's book, he quotes directly from Gaston that he wanted Green to pull the ball more. Anyone who argues differently is a moron.

 

You'd think a man of his principles like Cito is, he would've put a cease & deisist order in to prevent such falsities from being published. And now that its after the fact of the book being published, sue for defamation of character for portraying Gaston as a simple-minded man from down Souf.

[Dr Negative]

Imo Cito and Murphy are both probably great coaches except they both have this crippling flaw that they teach the game in a sub-optimal way which just is not competitive in the modern environment.

[BlueJayWay]

The Jays currently lead the AL in homeruns, but are ahead of only Seattle and Chicago in runs scored/game :/

[Metallijay]

Funny, thing is, in Shawn Green's book, he quotes directly from Gaston that he wanted Green to pull the ball more. Anyone who argues differently is a moron.

 

In fairness pulling more doesn't mean not ever to go the other way,, pulling more is smart if the pitch warrants it, maybe thats what he meant? Olerud finally became an elite hitter when he started pulling more.

[Caper]

They will blame the ghost of Murphy when he is long dead.