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The 6 man rotation that turned into just basically not using Lauer and Fisher one of our best relievers being sent to triple A were a tandem of terrible decisions.

Yea honestly we could look back and that could be the reason we lost the division.

I usually like Schneider as a manager but two singles was not a reason to pull Nance that quickly. Also, not pinch hitting schneider for clement and just leaving bassit in too long. Everything to do with pitching on this team is 90% the front office's fault but still bad decisions i thought today.

They way underuse Schneider as a pinch hitter. Clement should not have been hitting in that spot.

The starting pitching has been both poor and lucky which is a weird combo. Like, essentially one injury that cost real time. They were in line to get through a whole year with like 6 starters.

Yea Manoah did actually produce a good bit of value even if he flamed out a bit. Have to give credit for that. I actually looked at the 'home produced pitching' and if you count prospects we traded for (but had yet to see the show), i think Biagini or Thornton is the second highest WAR of this regime. edit; my bad its jordan romano. most of the list is guys drafted before they came (borucki, Romano, mayza) or prospects they traded for early (biagini, thornton).

Yea Yesavage really needs to be up. He strikes people out. That's enough. Get him into the pen.

Any front office with money can and will sign free agents. Boston have a ton of capacity between now and the salaries they ran when they won the division. They will also sign more free agents. They never added an important piece to our core outside free agency or trades since 2016. 9 years of no difference makers in the draft or international free agency so far. Maybe Moreno is the only example.

Boston are already bringing through homegrown pitching and have what looks like a possible superstar on a cheap long term deal. They also already acquired an ace and have tons of good hitting prospects coming, and a reputation as one of the best hitting dev teams. And a lot of room to add salary to their normal standard. That is already way ahead of us in 2021. Baltimore have hitters coming out of their ears. If i was their owner, i'd keep a close eye on their pitching and think about switching it up if guys don't start coming through. We had vlad, bo and kirk and essentially never added anything substantial to it. In fact, almost everything we did that was really big was in 2016. Which is what i meant by how close it was to the transition. As soon as they had full control all they can add are complementary pieces on the hitting side. They are good at that. And they are good at signing pitching free agents who stay healthy. That's it. In what universe is that enough in the al east? i would be fine keeping shapiro. He seems to only do the business side anyway. I'd fire Atkins no problem. The fact is if you absolutely suck at pitching, which it is clear we do, you need to be amazing elsewhere. We aren't .

I wouldn't fire them because they lost the division. I'd fire them because I believe that you can't be consistently good without cost controlled pitching and they haven't developed almost any for ten years. I'd let him keep his job for one more year if they win the division. And then i'd fire him next year if there is still no cost controlled pitching and we don't win the division. Its a god damm excellent reason on its own to fire him. I also have no idea why i'm supposed to be so impressed by their drafting. Bichette has been their best pick in ten years and word at the time was they left largely the team that scouted the draft for AA in place for that draft. Even the guy who originally found kirk was a holdover who went on to work for atlanta. I think you are being a bit much talking about good defensive infielders and possible platoon players as the 'bones' of a team. Look at boston or baltimore if you want to see what the bones of a team looks like.

Barger has been good for a short enough amount of time that its unclear if he is a long term piece. He might be a strong side platoon guy. Its too early to tell. Gimenez needs to hit. No one actually values defensive WAR that much if he is an 80 wrc+ player. I hated the santander signing and still do. Seemed like desperation more than anything. If we were in a different division slightly to moderately underperforming payroll will work. We are in a division with two teams who have regularly run higher payroll than us (and the yankees at least have a top tier front office) and two other teams where one obviously has a much better front office than us, and the other has an excellent core of young hitters. We need to outperform payroll. We need to develop pitching. And ten years is a reasonable amount of time to expect that to happen. And it hasn't happened. So, if they don't win the division... fire them. This is more than enough time for results to matter. AA got essentially no grace compared to these guys. He just seemed not as good at asking for more money. That's about it. edit: to me the goal of ownership seems to be wild cards or at least good enough to fill the stadium and get tv ratings into august/september. What i would say to that, is you could get a better front office and do that for 190m instead.

Over the season as a whole our starting pitching has been bad backed up by excellent defense. And also really healthy which is kind of nuts.

We had the 10th and 11th highest payroll in 2015 and 2016, and we have the 5th highest payroll now, and need to spend like this to be competitive. They have received more help from ownership than any front office in my memory. I also don't see how this is THAT much better outlook wise going forward than the 2015 team. Vlad and Kirk are the only two in their prime pieces locked down long term that anyone would really strongly believe in. We will need to add free agent pitching and again hope for excellent injury luck to be good. We MIGHT have good pitching coming. But anyone who looks at the last ten years and doesn't want to wait and see on that.. and even then i'd rather have more competent people further develop that.

I'm way more worried about the yankees.

I'd fire them if we don't win the division but i would have fired them 5/6 years in and still no pitching development. Like, with our payroll, there are front offices out there who could develop some pitching, and win the division 2 times in a decade, plus 3/4 wild cards. That's a reasonable expectation. The yankees and tampa have significantly better front offices than us. I personally think Boston is too. Alot of that is what Bloom did. I think Baltimore clearly is as well.

Yea, i was more talking about today. His fastball feels very hittable. I know that's not scientific but that's what it feels like.

We somehow got the front office guys who know dick all about pitching development from CLEVELAND. One of the best pitching development organizations. And then gave them way more money than most blue jays gms have ever got for zero pitching in ten years. Its not difficult. Hire from tampa. LA did it. Milwaukee did it. The guy who put in all the processes that paid off in Boston is from Tampa. He will do the same in St Louis. They have been given so much rope for barely acceptable return given the payroll. There is just so much captive media in Canada, barely anyone points out how much they suck.

The two homeruns were hit hard on the edge of the zone. Some bad luck there. His fastball generally though looks very 'hittable' .

By the way, this is why instead of coming in his hand because he got so much reliever control, Atkins should have got multiple relievers who can strike people out. He is such the dumbass of a gm who has dumbasses convinced he is smart because he talks about control.

There's obviously some degree of bad luck but i don't know. We don't really have anyone who could close. The best candidate statistically is Fisher but he is in triple A.

Fair. I meant just as likely. Essentially 50/50.

He has a legitimate chance to be DFAed because every reliever not on a multi year contract has a real chance of that each and every year. If varland has this exact couple of weeks stretch in 2027 he could be DFAed. That's just how baseball works.

I'm putting zero emphasis on his two weeks of struggle. I put 100% emphasis on him only being good for 4.5 months. I didn't say its more likely he will be DFAed in 2027. Its just that he is a reliever and there is always a large chance that they will suck in two years. And if they are out of options they often get DFAed. The only time I step outside that mindset is longer term track record. He doesn't have it. Same applies to Fisher but he has more options. I just looked at the 2023 roster and there are exactly two relievers who pitched for the blue jays this year. Chad Green and Yimi Garcia. There are tons of position players and starters.

Varland was a good reliever for like half a year. I think its certainly possible he is good again, but i also think its more than possible he is DFAed in 2027 when he doesn't have an option. There is way too much certainty in his stuff out there. He has no track record to justify that .

Yea i love that trade. Two more of those would be nice. Cheap, rental, strikes people out. Do that MULTIPLE times.