glory

I'm not sure whether to give the FO credit for trading Martin, Groshans, and Hoglund before they completely bottomed out, or give the FO s*** for drafting them in the first place (along with Zoinks and Warmoth) with 1st round picks. Other than Manoah that's kind of a steaming pile of crap for 1st round picks.

Trading KK to a contender, moving Varsho to CF, and acquiring a LF is the best option, IMO. If you want to maximize 2023 wins then keeping KK and replacing Varsho probably makes more sense but that’s not happening due to Varsho having more years of control and more upside overall. I think 2024 Varsho as a full time CF will be better, but that doesn’t help in 2023. I can’t see Atkins trading KK, though. Most likely they will trade for a RHB OF who can hit lefties well and see if they can make that work. Another thing that needs to be done at this point is Jansen needs to start more than Kirk. Maybe Kirk gets to live off his first half in 2022 a bit longer but a singles hitting fatty who is slower than the people posting on this forum is not an asset offensively. Let him backup Jansen more often.

Anderson's GB rate appears to have skyrocketed this season as well, combined with a complete loss of power, so no doubt Atkins and Guillermo licking their chops to acquire him. Although I am curious to see if the White Sox pick up his option. It's not that expensive considering what type of player he was pre-2023 and there's a history between the player and org, but Reinsdorf is cheap as hell, so who knows.

That noise you heard was Guillermo Martinez first pumping and loudly yelling "let's go!" as the Jays scored a run by putting the ball on the ground. Just how it was drawn up. Seriously though, this offense is boring as s***.

Varsho's wRC+ down to 79 after this game. He's been s***. No way to sugar coat it. The fact that he's not even compensating for that as a CF, and instead having to be played in LF, makes it even worse.

In Kirk's last 524 plate appearances dating back to last season, he is hitting .249/.334/.323 (91 WRC+) with a .074 ISO. People waiting for him to magically turn back into what he was in the first half of 2022 are likely going to be disappointed. He's been a noodle bat singles hitter for over a year now, which isn't a good combination with being dirt slow and out of shape. In other words, yes, extend Danny Jansen. That shouldn't even be a debate within the organization at this point. Just figure out a number that makes sense for both sides and get it done.

The issue is KK and Varsho shouldn’t be starting in the same OF. As good as KK has been offensively, his bat is going to regress closer to his norm, and Varsho’s greatest asset is his defense in CF as he may not (likely won’t) be able to hit well enough to justify a corner OF spot. Platooning both is certainly an option, but the offense around those two isn’t good enough to compensate for having two 90 wRC+ bats in the OF. Either Varsho has to have a monster 2nd half (which is possible) or they need to trade KK and add a LF who can hit.

Tommy Pham should be looked at as the Mets stink and he's having a very good season. Mostly red statcast page and he crushes LHP.

Guillermo Martinez with tears of joy trickling down his cheek seeing all his ground ball singles.

Hopefully they promote Orelvis to AAA soon. I guess they are waiting for the trade deadline where they could declutter some of the upper minors with trades and open up spots for promotions, but Martinez is clearly on another level right now. He's ready to be pushed up.

"We are 4 singles away from tying the game." - Guillermo Martinez.

Yeah calling Manoah up so soon seems like it’s going to end poorly. Not sure why they didn’t give Francis a genuine shot to start a few games. Atkins is 0-for-life when it comes to developing SP, aside from when Manoah was good, and stuff like this certainly won’t help. Some times teams create passable SP options by actually starting them in games. I know it’s a radical concept but it happens from time to time.

Ross Atkins stinks at selling/trading for prospects. His main/only strength is his ability to make good short term MLB moves, so buying at the deadline is playing more to his strong points. I’d rather he trade marginal prospects for another Merrifield than have to talk myself into getting hyped for more Thomas Hatch’s.

Yeah I’d rather the All Star game have actual stars, even if they are having down years. MLB should want to have the stars to promote the sport and the fans should want the stars for the entertainment value. Not having Tatis in the game, for example, is absurd.

Agreed. There’s not much they can do. They are married to most of the roster through 2024 at the minimum, and the impending FA’s (Belt, KK, Merrifield, Chapman) are currently the ones who are helping to keep the team’s head above water while Vlad, Kirk, Varsho, etc, are s***ing the bed. All they can really do is try to fix the depth. Maybe find a RH bat who can mash LHP to come off the bench, add a late inning reliever or two if possible, etc. It’s not like the Jays have a system that can be ravaged by trades, as I doubt they have much value there aside from Tiedemann and Martinez, but they should hold on to the prospects that look somewhat promising. This is not the team to go all in for. Save some prospect capital for the off season when they’ll have a bunch of holes to fill.

If Vlad is a 2 WAR player instead of a 5-6 WAR player, then I’m not sure the ceiling for this team is that high.

Losing Fred and still trying to run it back is insanity. They were a .500 team with Fred last season. They lost the play in game at home against an awful Bulls team. Now they are bringing the same group back except replacing FVV with an inferior player. Not sure what they are expecting the outcome to be.

Look at how the Jays operated in 2017. That team was old and bad, but they still didn’t sell off their vets at peak value. They waited until the summer of 2018 when practically every asset they moved was at the dirt lowest in value with minimal control left. If the Jays ever trade Bo it will be in July 2025 if the team is selling. Otherwise he’s here until the end of the 2025 season. That’s just how the current regime operates, and it’s likely an extension of how Rogers wants them to operate.

The last sentence is the real issue. Where do you make the improvement? You're not replacing Vlad, Bo, Springer, Varsho, Kirk/Jansen. That's your core group at least through 2024. After that you have a group of impending free agents. They currently rank 2nd (Chapman), 3rd (KK), 4th (Merrifield), and 9th (Belt) on the team in WAR, and Belt ranks 3rd in wRC+ on the team, so it's not like any of them make sense to move or improve on either. The only thing I can think of is moving Varsho back to CF full time and finding a LF (trade KK for whatever piece you can get), but that's about it. Maybe there's a DH with more power than Belt has shown so far who makes more sense on this team, but he's still one of the best hitters on the team at the moment. Getting rid of the hitting coach and making some fundamental changes in player development has to be considered at this point. The lack of power up and down the lineup and organization as a whole (other than Orelvis in the minors) is mind boggling. I tend to agree with not touching the system at the deadline. It's in a bad enough spot as it is, and this is not the roster that anyone should be doubling down on. Stand pat, live with the consequences (either miss the playoffs or hope for a Philly 2022 run), and go from there.

He needs to be a CF. A 90-100 wRC+ as a great defensive CF would be valuable. As a LF it’s simply not enough. I’ve said before, trade KK, and then make a subsequent trade for a LF with some pop.

I think it's safe to write 2023 off for Manoah, but what he does in the off season to prepare for 2024 will be critical. Looking at Vlad (who actually tried to get in shape at one point) and Kirk, I'm not counting on anyone in this org to get into great shape who isn't already motivated to get in that shape, but Manoah's diet/conditioning might be costing him generational wealth, so you just have to hope there's enough incentive in there to change. Hitting rock bottom is usually a good thing in that regard.

Fat Boy letting Francis go 4 innings was a nice surprise. Maybe he will let him go one more.

Might as well keep stretching Richards out and see what happens at this point. Starting depth is already poor and Manoah looks done for 2023 so an unexpected SP developing would be a nice outcome.

Yeah ideally both the Jays and Angels make it in, but it might be one or the other (or neither) depending on how the Yankees/Astros/Rangers finish.

Genuinely hoping the Angels get one of the WC spots (or overtake the Rangers in the West). This will be the last season Ohtani and Trout will be on the same team. At least end it with a playoff appearance.