Imagine if Roy Halladay was on the 2010 team?

[Dick_Pole]

85 win team with a decent offense led by a 54 home run breakout star that was missing a top end ace. Imagine if Halladay was on the team. It probably wins 90+. 93 if we apply his 8 WAR and drop the rotating replacement level talents who filled out the 5-spot that year. If two of those wins come against the Yankees the Jays make the playoffs. And even if they miss, the season likely goes well enough to convince Halladay to stay with this sufficiently competitive team.

 

But no no no, the Jays HAD to be sellers at the end of 2009, because that was the conventional wisdom. Can't let Halladay go for nothing! Might as well get some Dickey fodder and if you squint hard enough a couple of good years out of Devon Travis (not to say the Jays couldn't have acquired him through trading another player).

 

The Halladay trade IMO is easily one of the top 5 worst trades the team has done. The poor return, the poor timing and the franchise impact (Roy Halladay the "baseball player" is in the HOF). I still hear people whine and moan about the Donaldson trade and how he should have been traded a year sooner. Nuh-uh, the Halladay trade is 1000x worse than the Donaldson non-trade. Whine about that instead. This franchise could have seen a very different trajectory from 2010 onwards. Who knows what kind of butterfly effect there would have been. THAT is something to regret. Not some bust that Atkins would have gotten out of Donaldson had he traded him 8 months earlier.

 

I write this in a new thread because multiple threads are inundated with losers from Loserville with their loser mindset writing about how the Jays NEED to go full rebuild. But luckily they doubt it will happen. Because as much as we all hate Rogers, we all have to admit being the dominant player in an oligopoly has them in an alpha position and mindset. Rogers correctly feels that the Jays should not go into a full rebuild. Losing doesn't beget winning. Losing begets more losing and your franchise losing value and earning power.

 

You know what begets winning? Good drafting and player development. And if the current crop of beta dipshits running the team have proven incapable of doing so, you fire those dipshits and find somebody who can. You don't go full early 2010s Astros and rack up multiple 100-loss seasons.

[max silver]

85 win team with a decent offense led by a 54 home run breakout star that was missing a top end ace. Imagine if Halladay was on the team. It probably wins 90+. 93 if we apply his 8 WAR and drop the rotating replacement level talents who filled out the 5-spot that year. If two of those wins come against the Yankees the Jays make the playoffs. And even if they miss, the season likely goes well enough to convince Halladay to stay with this sufficiently competitive team.

 

But no no no, the Jays HAD to be sellers at the end of 2009, because that was the conventional wisdom. Can't let Halladay go for nothing! Might as well get some Dickey fodder and if you squint hard enough a couple of good years out of Devon Travis (not to say the Jays couldn't have acquired him through trading another player).

 

The Halladay trade IMO is easily one of the top 5 worst trades the team has done. The poor return, the poor timing and the franchise impact (Roy Halladay the "baseball player" is in the HOF). I still hear people whine and moan about the Donaldson trade and how he should have been traded a year sooner. Nuh-uh, the Halladay trade is 1000x worse than the Donaldson non-trade. Whine about that instead. This franchise could have seen a very different trajectory from 2010 onwards. Who knows what kind of butterfly effect there would have been. THAT is something to regret. Not some bust that Atkins would have gotten out of Donaldson had he traded him 8 months earlier.

 

I write this in a new thread because multiple threads are inundated with losers from Loserville with their loser mindset writing about how the Jays NEED to go full rebuild. But luckily they doubt it will happen. Because as much as we all hate Rogers, we all have to admit being the dominant player in an oligopoly has them in an alpha position and mindset. Rogers correctly feels that the Jays should not go into a full rebuild. Losing doesn't beget winning. Losing begets more losing and your franchise losing value and earning power.

 

You know what begets winning? Good drafting and player development. And if the current crop of beta dipshits running the team have proven incapable of doing so, you fire those dipshits and find somebody who can. You don't go full early 2010s Astros and rack up multiple 100-loss seasons.

 

I don't think the organization actually wanted to trade Halladay as he asked to be traded to have a chance to compete.

[Olerud363]

 

You know what begets winning? Good drafting and player development. And if the current crop of beta dipshits running the team have proven incapable of doing so, you fire those dipshits and find somebody who can. You don't go full early 2010s Astros and rack up multiple 100-loss seasons.

 

The Astros, in exchange for 3 50 win seasons are in their 10th contending season with 7 straight AL Championship appearances. I think that is a trade-off any self-respecting winner would make.

 

I do agree that the Halladay trade did not work out. However the 2014-2016 team was seeded with moves in 2008-2009. Bautista and EE were acquired in little trades that may not have been done if Jays were "full on contending those years".

 

We also have Teoscar Hernandez.

 

So basically if you trade for a bunch of players right now, which given what will be traded the return will be lottery tickets and mid 20s Derek Fisher/Hernandez/EE/Bautista/Drury/Mckinley types, you'll get some Derek Fishers and Mckinley;s but also maybe some good stuff.

 

Do you do it? Or do you stay a winner and don't do the loser trades. Or maybe you become a real winner's winner and only make the winner trades. Bautista/Hernandez/EE only, no loser Derek Fisher trades.

 

Trump/Vance. Winners only. (Not political please do not censor. Only making point about "winner" attitudes. Trump Vance have winner attitudes and that is what I am commenting on, nothing at all politcial so do not respond with anything political, only thoughts on the winner vs. loser attitudes).

[Omar]

The Astros, in exchange for 3 50 win seasons are in their 10th contending season with 7 straight AL Championship appearances. I think that is a trade-off any self-respecting winner would make.

 

I do agree that the Halladay trade did not work out. However the 2014-2016 team was seeded with moves in 2008-2009. Bautista and EE were acquired in little trades that may not have been done if Jays were "full on contending those years".

 

We also have Teoscar Hernandez.

 

So basically if you trade for a bunch of players right now, which given what will be traded the return will be lottery tickets and mid 20s Derek Fisher/Hernandez/EE/Bautista/Drury/Mckinley types, you'll get some Derek Fishers and Mckinley;s but also maybe some good stuff.

 

Do you do it? Or do you stay a winner and don't do the loser trades. Or maybe you become a real winner's winner and only make the winner trades. Bautista/Hernandez/EE only, no loser Derek Fisher trades.

 

Trump/Vance. Winners only. (Not political please do not censor. Only making point about "winner" attitudes. Trump Vance have winner attitudes and that is what I am commenting on, nothing at all politcial so do not respond with anything political, only thoughts on the winner vs. loser attitudes).

 

lol

[Joltin Joe]

85 win team with a decent offense led by a 54 home run breakout star that was missing a top end ace. Imagine if Halladay was on the team. It probably wins 90+. 93 if we apply his 8 WAR and drop the rotating replacement level talents who filled out the 5-spot that year. If two of those wins come against the Yankees the Jays make the playoffs. And even if they miss, the season likely goes well enough to convince Halladay to stay with this sufficiently competitive team.

 

But no no no, the Jays HAD to be sellers at the end of 2009, because that was the conventional wisdom. Can't let Halladay go for nothing! Might as well get some Dickey fodder and if you squint hard enough a couple of good years out of Devon Travis (not to say the Jays couldn't have acquired him through trading another player).

 

The Halladay trade IMO is easily one of the top 5 worst trades the team has done. The poor return, the poor timing and the franchise impact (Roy Halladay the "baseball player" is in the HOF). I still hear people whine and moan about the Donaldson trade and how he should have been traded a year sooner. Nuh-uh, the Halladay trade is 1000x worse than the Donaldson non-trade. Whine about that instead. This franchise could have seen a very different trajectory from 2010 onwards. Who knows what kind of butterfly effect there would have been. THAT is something to regret. Not some bust that Atkins would have gotten out of Donaldson had he traded him 8 months earlier.

 

I write this in a new thread because multiple threads are inundated with losers from Loserville with their loser mindset writing about how the Jays NEED to go full rebuild. But luckily they doubt it will happen. Because as much as we all hate Rogers, we all have to admit being the dominant player in an oligopoly has them in an alpha position and mindset. Rogers correctly feels that the Jays should not go into a full rebuild. Losing doesn't beget winning. Losing begets more losing and your franchise losing value and earning power.

 

You know what begets winning? Good drafting and player development. And if the current crop of beta dipshits running the team have proven incapable of doing so, you fire those dipshits and find somebody who can. You don't go full early 2010s Astros and rack up multiple 100-loss seasons.

 

I noticed that at the time. The 2010 Jays were decent team and we gave away best pitcher in game at the time. Plus we paid Phillies 7 million in the deal. Which was a lot of money at time. Phillies must been laughing. We got nothing back.

 

 

 

A total waste as we would have received 2 first round picks if he had walked at seasons end.

[AMS528]

Trump/Vance. Winners only. (Not political please do not censor. Only making point about "winner" attitudes. Trump Vance have winner attitudes and that is what I am commenting on, nothing at all politcial so do not respond with anything political, only thoughts on the winner vs. loser attitudes).

 

J.D Vance has incredible loser energy. 100% podcast loser energy. Makes terrible jokes, had a personal angsty blog, licking boots to compensate for earlier statements. Pure unadulterated loser energy.

[Spanky99]

J.D Vance has incredible loser energy. 100% podcast loser energy. Makes terrible jokes, had a personal angsty blog, licking boots to compensate for earlier statements. Pure unadulterated loser energy.

 

Hah... I haven't seen a bootlicker comment in here since the politics thread. *shifty eyes*

[Joltin Joe]

Whatever happened to the 3 prospects we got back in Halladay trade?

 

Drabek I remember we released him couple of years later. We traded one to Oakland for a bust.

[AMS528]

Hah... I haven't seen a bootlicker comment in here since the politics thread. *shifty eyes*

 

Not political please do not censor. Only making point about "loser" attitudes. Vance has loser attitudes and that is what I am commenting on, nothing at all politcial so do not respond with anything political, only thoughts on the winner vs. loser attitudes.(Credit: Olerud363)

[Laika]

Whatever happened to the 3 prospects we got back in Halladay trade?

 

Drabek I remember we released him couple of years later. We traded one to Oakland for a bust.

 

Brett Wallace was a plus sized athleisurewear model the last I checked his instagram

 

Travis Darno still plays baseball somewhere, I can't remember where. Europe or something.

 

Kyle Drabek is reportedly still alive

[AMS528]

Brett Wallace was a plus sized athleisurewear model the last I checked his instagram

 

Travis Darno still plays baseball somewhere, I can't remember where. Europe or something.

 

Kyle Drabek is reportedly still alive

 

D'Arnaud with the best career, and also one of the widest percentage gap of almost any player between bWAR and fWAR (I think by raw numbers Mo Rivera has a huge discrepency but not as large as a percentage). He has 20 fWAR and 8.8 bWAR.

 

Not super surprising he had the best career, he really became the top prospect quick after the trade. Drabek was a guy who was way overvalued as a prospect back then, and wouldn't even be considered near that level of prospect these days. Interesting to see how he was a top 30 piece.

[Spanky99]

Not political please do not censor. Only making point about "loser" attitudes. Vance has loser attitudes and that is what I am commenting on, nothing at all politcial so do not respond with anything political, only thoughts on the winner vs. loser attitudes.(Credit: Olerud363)

 

I'm not a mod, dude. Also, bWAR doesn't account pitch framing I believe.

[Joltin Joe]

Brett Wallace was a plus sized athleisurewear model the last I checked his instagram

 

Travis Darno still plays baseball somewhere, I can't remember where. Europe or something.

 

Kyle Drabek is reportedly still alive

We traded Wallace for player we got some use out of

[Spanky99]

We traded Wallace for player we got some use out of

 

Michael Taylor > Brett Wallace > Anthony Gose > Devon Travis

[glory]

I remember being really excited about Michael Taylor based on his minor league numbers, before he was flipped for Wallace (which I hated). Both ended up being nothing.

[Joltin Joe]

Michael Taylor > Brett Wallace > Anthony Gose > Devon Travis

Yup, I just googled it. Devon Travis. Man we have lost some good infielders to lower body injuries. Wonder if this is normal or from playing on turf. Besides Travis there was Donaldson, Bo, Bush.

[John_Havok]

Yup, I just googled it. Devon Travis. Man we have lost some good infielders to lower body injuries. Wonder if this is normal or from playing on turf. Besides Travis there was Donaldson, Bo, Bush.

 

You'd probably find a higher correlation to those types of injuries back when playing on truf was like playing on cement... but the stuff they have now is extremely forgiving.

[AMS528]

I'm not a mod, dude. Also, bWAR doesn't account pitch framing I believe.

 

I was aware haha. But also I think anytime anyone makes a vaguely political post they should really just quote that Olerud bit.