Does anyone actually trust Ross Atkins and Shapiro to be at the helm for a rebuild?

[jaysblue]

Bud, you started this discussion by suggesting the returns that Shapiro got for CC and Lee weren't very good. The majority suggested that was a bad take, as getting Brantley and Carrasco for 1/2 a season of CC and 1 1/2 seasons of Lee was actually quite good. When you factor in that Shapiro got Sizemore, Phillips and Cliff Lee for 1 1/2 seasons of Bartolo Colon, it becomes pretty evident that Shapiro had a pretty good track record of executing trades during his time in Cleveland.

 

Want to add to this? Remember when Shapiro fleeced AA by getting Yan Gomes and Mike Aviles for Esmil Rogers? Gomes immediately gave Cleveland a 4.4 and a 4.9 WAR season.

 

I never suggested anything about those packages for CC and Cliff Lee not being good. Was just revisiting them, asking the board what they thought and pointing out what players in the deal worked out. Was fascinating that Brantley was a PTBNL based on the Brewers making the Postseason that year. Otherwise, Cleveland doesn't get Brantley. Just found that part interesting.

 

Never said Shapiro had a bad track record of executing trades when in Cleveland, so keep telling yourself that.

 

I'm not judging Shapiro against AA. I love how you always bring up AA for some reason when having discussions with me lol. You're obsessed with this front office man and for some reason have a personal vendetta against AA, one of the only GMs in the last two decades that actually got the Jays close to a World Series in 2015 and 2016. Give it a rest.

[Stangstag]

No you keep up, you got a 500 pitcher who wasn’t an ace for a guy who went 22-3 and had just won the Cy Young in his prime (0nly 29 at the time of the trade), the rest of the package pretty much bombed out.

 

How in hell was that a good return? Are you stoned or something. That’s like trading Vlad Guerrero for Steve Pearce

 

Jesus christ

[Brownie19]

I never suggested anything about those packages for CC and Cliff Lee not being good. Was just revisiting them, asking the board what they thought and pointing out what players in the deal worked out. Was fascinating that Brantley was a PTBNL based on the Brewers making the Postseason that year. Otherwise, Cleveland doesn't get Brantley. Just found that part interesting.

 

Never said Shapiro had a bad track record of executing trades when in Cleveland, so keep telling yourself that.

 

I'm not judging Shapiro against AA. I love how you always bring up AA for some reason when having discussions with me lol. You're obsessed with this front office man and for some reason have a personal vendetta against AA, one of the only GMs in the last two decades that actually got the Jays close to a World Series in 2015 and 2016. Give it a rest.

 

This thread is titled "Does anyone actually trust Ross Atkins and Shapiro to be at the helm for a rebuild?"

 

After someone posts that Shapiro is actually the one making all the decision and another post about how Larry Dolan was desperate to get rid of him and how fans hated Shapiro....you bring up a couple of critical trades that Shapiro made during his time in Cleveland and suggest "only Michael Brantley amounted to anything" and regarding the Carrasco trade say "the rest of the package was garbage".

 

Hopefully you can you see how one might interpret that you don't think Shapiro did a good job in Cleveland and/or with those trades.

 

I have no obsession with this front office. I have an obsession with people who only look at results to form opinions, those who can't understand probabilities and factors outside of a GM's control and who fail to see both sides of an argument. I did the exact same thing with people who complained and bitched about AA ad nauseam.

Edited July 17, 2024 by Brownie19

[jaysblue]

This thread is titled "Does anyone actually trust Ross Atkins and Shapiro to be at the helm for a rebuild?"

 

After someone posts that Shapiro is actually the one making all the decision and another post about how Larry Dolan was desperate to get rid of him and how fans hated Shapiro....you bring up a couple of critical trades that Shapiro made during his time in Cleveland and suggest "only Michael Brantley amounted to anything" and regarding the Carrasco trade say "the rest of the package was garbage".

 

Hopefully you can you see how one might interpret that you don't think Shapiro did a good job in Cleveland and/or with those trades.

 

I have no obsession with this front office. I have an obsession with people who only look at results to form opinions, those who can't understand probabilities and factors outside of a GM's control and who fail to see both sides of an argument. I did the exact same thing with people who complained and bitched about AA ad nauseam.

 

Again, twisting my words around and making it seem like I hate Shapiro in order to fit your narrative.

 

Yes Brantley was the only piece that ever amounted to anything. I mentioned that I found it interesting since he was a PTBNL selected by Cleveland because Milwaukee made the Postseason. If the Brewers missed the postseason, Melvin was expected to select the PTBNL. Matt LaPorta was a huge flop considering he was ranked as one of the top prospects in baseball. Someone who coveted him in my early years of Fantasy Baseball so I know haha.

 

Yes the rest of the package for Lee was garbage. Jason Donald, Lou Marson and Jason Knapp never amounted to anything. Never said anything bad about Carlos Carrasco.

[Brownie19]

Again, twisting my words around and making it seem like I hate Shapiro in order to fit your narrative.

 

The narrative that you don't like the Blue Jays FO? That's the narrative I'm trying to create? I don't think anyone needs to try and create that.

 

I guess you may like Shapiro and hate Atkins, but Shapiro is responsible for Atkins and is the one keeping him around, so if you hate Atkins, then I'm not sure you should be super supportive of Shapiro. I mean you can like the reno's and stuff, but from a baseball perspective, you must feel Shapiro is failing Rogers and Jays fans everywhere no?

[wilko]

Actually I just got a private message saying the opposite. That I should ignore the “negativity police” and keep speaking my truth. I told them not to worry. I love the Mets and my BlueJays too much not to defend them. I’ve been here since the Prosprortsdaily days and many of the Old Guard are personal friends. I respect them too much to let some “negativity police” stop me from speaking my truth. Those of us who were here in those days, would NEVER let some pissant do that. You’re gonna find there are more of us than there are of you.

 

Real Jays fans Unite. Always speak your truth.

 

[BTS]

Actually I just got a private message saying the opposite. That I should ignore the “negativity police” and keep speaking my truth. I told them not to worry. I love the Mets and my BlueJays too much not to defend them. I’ve been here since the Prosprortsdaily days and many of the Old Guard are personal friends. I respect them too much to let some “negativity police” stop me from speaking my truth. Those of us who were here in those days, would NEVER let some pissant do that. You’re gonna find there are more of us than there are of you.

 

Real Jays fans Unite. Always speak your truth.

 

I didn’t mean because you’re too negative. I meant because most people here are at least speaking the same language regarding player value when they disagree about things and you’re on an island ignoring things like contracts and player performance when you share your ideas.

 

Cleveland didn’t trade Cliff Lee’s career, or the last 5 years of his career to Philly. They traded a year and half, at a time when they were rebuilding. Getting like 1200 innings of a great #2 starter is like a 90th percentile outcome in a deal like that. Inarguable. Unambiguous.

[BTS]

Philly traded Lee a year later for Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies, and JC Ramirez. Blast from the past.

[wilko]

Philly traded Lee a year later for Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies, and JC Ramirez. Blast from the past.

 

Couple Canadian guys.

[mikepelfrey]

No youre wrong, they had no idea how long whether it was a year and a half of Lee or ten years, WHEN THE TRADE WAS MADE, they traded a reigning Cy Young winner in his prime for Carrasco and 3 prospects who never amounted to anything.

 

Anyway you twist it that’s a horrible return.

 

Once you trade a player how long he lasts with his new team, is no longer in your control. If Shapiro had not traded Lee, he very well may have resigned in Cleveland and finished his career there. We have no way of knowing

 

The fact is Shapiro traded a reigning Cy Young winner in his prime for Carrasco and 3 guys who never amounted to much, no matter how you spin it they lost that trade. To say anything else is disingenuous.

[Laika]

lmfao

[Stangstag]

No youre wrong, they had no idea how long whether it was a year and a half of Lee or ten years, WHEN THE TRADE WAS MADE, they traded a reigning Cy Young winner in his prime for Carrasco and 3 prospects who never amounted to anything.

 

Anyway you twist it that’s a horrible return.

 

Once you trade a player how long he lasts with his new team, is no longer in your control. If Shapiro had not traded Lee, he very well may have resigned in Cleveland and finished his career there. We have no way of knowing

 

The fact is Shapiro traded a reigning Cy Young winner in his prime for Carrasco and 3 guys who never amounted to much, no matter how you spin it they lost that trade. To say anything else is disingenuous.

 

Troll. Ignore list

[The Cats Ass]

No youre wrong, they had no idea how long whether it was a year and a half of Lee or ten years, WHEN THE TRADE WAS MADE, they traded a reigning Cy Young winner in his prime for Carrasco and 3 prospects who never amounted to anything.

 

Anyway you twist it that’s a horrible return.

 

Once you trade a player how long he lasts with his new team, is no longer in your control. If Shapiro had not traded Lee, he very well may have resigned in Cleveland and finished his career there. We have no way of knowing

 

The fact is Shapiro traded a reigning Cy Young winner in his prime for Carrasco and 3 guys who never amounted to much, no matter how you spin it they lost that trade. To say anything else is disingenuous.

 

This tells me you have no idea how free agency works, and you're one of those people who thinks a player is "traded away for nothing" when they sign with a different team.

[BTS]

No youre wrong, they had no idea how long whether it was a year and a half of Lee or ten years, WHEN THE TRADE WAS MADE, they traded a reigning Cy Young winner in his prime for Carrasco and 3 prospects who never amounted to anything.

 

Anyway you twist it that’s a horrible return.

 

Once you trade a player how long he lasts with his new team, is no longer in your control. If Shapiro had not traded Lee, he very well may have resigned in Cleveland and finished his career there. We have no way of knowing

 

The fact is Shapiro traded a reigning Cy Young winner in his prime for Carrasco and 3 guys who never amounted to much, no matter how you spin it they lost that trade. To say anything else is disingenuous.

 

This is almost certainly going to result in an eventual meltdown and subsequent ban, on account of you being devastatingly stupid, but I'll let it ride for now.

[Spanky99]

No youre wrong, they had no idea how long whether it was a year and a half of Lee or ten years, WHEN THE TRADE WAS MADE, they traded a reigning Cy Young winner in his prime for Carrasco and 3 prospects who never amounted to anything.

 

Anyway you twist it that’s a horrible return.

 

Once you trade a player how long he lasts with his new team, is no longer in your control. If Shapiro had not traded Lee, he very well may have resigned in Cleveland and finished his career there. We have no way of knowing

 

The fact is Shapiro traded a reigning Cy Young winner in his prime for Carrasco and 3 guys who never amounted to much, no matter how you spin it they lost that trade. To say anything else is disingenuous.

 

[jaysblue]

Philly traded Lee a year later for Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies, and JC Ramirez. Blast from the past.

 

Where is Ruben Amaro Jr now these days? Haha

[Spanky99]

Where is Ruben Amaro Jr now these days? Haha

 

MLB Network

[mikepelfrey]

This is almost certainly going to result in an eventual meltdown and subsequent ban, on account of you being devastatingly stupid, but I'll let it ride for now.

Too bad Bts, why would I melt down when several other members tell me you’re clueless and to ignore you for the fool you are. I just figure I’ll do the Christian thing and educate you.

 

The fact is Shapiro and Atkins Will eventually be let go, and nothing you say will change that. It’s the nature of the game.

[Spanky99]

lol

[Joltin Joe]

I think they picked wrong two to build around. Bo too inconsistent and Vlad power hitting 1b easy to acquire in free agency ie Lopez or Freeman.

[Jimcanuck]

No youre wrong, they had no idea how long whether it was a year and a half of Lee or ten years, WHEN THE TRADE WAS MADE, they traded a reigning Cy Young winner in his prime for Carrasco and 3 prospects who never amounted to anything.

 

Anyway you twist it that’s a horrible return.

 

Once you trade a player how long he lasts with his new team, is no longer in your control. If Shapiro had not traded Lee, he very well may have resigned in Cleveland and finished his career there. We have no way of knowing

 

The fact is Shapiro traded a reigning Cy Young winner in his prime for Carrasco and 3 guys who never amounted to much, no matter how you spin it they lost that trade. To say anything else is disingenuous.

 

A confusing post.

 

Basically you are saying that exclusive negotiating rights with pending free agents has value? The value depends on things we do not entirely know (1) the player's willingness to forgo free agency, and (2) the team's player salary budget, as dictated by the team owner. In many cases, the two factors do not mesh and the team has to explore trade options to avoid the risk of losing the player for nothing (or maybe a pick).

 

In the case of Cleveland and Lee, the decision was made that Lee could not be signed or was not in the team's interest, and he was traded for what turned out to be a good return.

Edited July 18, 2024 by Jimcanuck

[Laika]

Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Use Even Go Want to do Look More Like?

[Omar]

Mods.

[AMS528]

I think they picked wrong two to build around. Bo too inconsistent and Vlad power hitting 1b easy to acquire in free agency ie Lopez or Freeman.

 

It is absolutely not easy to acquire a power hitting 1B. There's only one Freddie Freeman and he went to LA. And past that you have Bryce Harper. After that there is really not anyone who is a consistent star which is why even this version of Vlad is basically a top 5 1B. He's been the 5th best hitter among 1B this season, that's how little 1B depth there is in the league.

[wilko]

Are these random users the same person?

[John Balkabella]

Mrs. Robinson was a great song.

[BTS]

Too bad Bts, why would I melt down when several other members tell me you’re clueless and to ignore you for the fool you are. I just figure I’ll do the Christian thing and educate you.

 

Are these members in the room with you right now?

[mikepelfrey]

Are these members in the room with you right now?

 

No they are members of this forum, one of whom

 

Sent me this message:

 

“Wilko is trying to bait you to out the poster who sent you the PM, which is obviously me.”

 

The fact is I would never out them to you or anyone. Because I believe everyone has a right to their own opinions. The sad part is that the “negativity police” as this poster refers to you as, exist at all. What right does anyone have to try and control another’s thoughts, especially when we are all blue jays fans.

 

Not everyone believes the road to reconstruction of this team into a contender and future championship quality team should follow the same blueprint, some want to send Bichette away while others want to keep him. To me that’s unimportant. What should be important is that each of us share the same desire that the team becomes relevant again.

 

I believe that Shapiro and Atkins, and I make no secret of this, have been here long enough to show that they are unqualified to fulfill that task… you can disagree with my opinion, in fact I welcome those of you who want to share your opinion as to why you think I am wrong.

 

What I don’t agree with are those of you who try to intimidate others, by use of so called negativity police.

 

Each of us has a voice, none of us are perfect, and none of us knows everything. Given that, all of us should be able to express ourselves freely without fear or favor…. And I for one will continue doing that. I think reasonable people should all have no use for anyone who uses intimidation as a means of limiting others.

 

And as a point of interest. I believe it was Wilko who invited me to this forum years ago, and for that I thank him. So I doubt he was deliberately trying to bait me, if he’s the same Wilko. He already knows I’m not one to betray a friend

Edited July 19, 2024 by mikepelfrey

[connorp]

Are these members in the room with you right now?

 

I’m certainly not one of the people feeding that. I may rightfully question what happened to your manhood over the years, but I think clueless is a baseless assertion. Likely someone upset about bans

[Rusty_Savage]

No they are members of this forum, one of whom

 

Sent me this message:

 

“Wilko is trying to bait you to out the poster who sent you the PM, which is obviously me.”

 

The fact is I would never out them to you or anyone. Because I believe everyone has a right to their own opinions. The sad part is that the “negativity police” as this poster refers to you as, exist at all. What right does anyone have to try and control another’s thoughts, especially when we are all blue jays fans.

 

Not everyone believes the road to reconstruction of this team into a contender and future championship quality team should follow the same blueprint, some want to send Bichette away while others want to keep him. To me that’s unimportant. What should be important is that each of us share the same desire that the team becomes relevant again.

 

I believe that Shapiro and Atkins, and I make no secret of this, have been here long enough to show that they are unqualified to fulfill that task… you can disagree with my opinion, in fact I welcome those of you who want to share your opinion as to why you think I am wrong.

 

What I don’t agree with are those of you who try to intimidate others, by use of so called negativity police.

 

Each of us has a voice, none of us are perfect, and none of us knows everything. Given that, all of us should be able to express ourselves freely without fear or favor…. And I for one will continue doing that. I think reasonable people should all have no use for anyone who uses intimidation as a means of limiting others.

 

And as a point of interest. I believe it was Wilko who invited me to this forum years ago, and for that I thank him. So I doubt he was deliberately trying to bait me, if he’s the same Wilko. He already knows I’m not one to betray a friend

Wilko should be banned

 

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