GDT: 1/4 Texas Rangers @ Toronto Blue Jays (7:07 et)

[Olerud363]

That same logic should extend to other teams too then. Every decision the Rockies make is good because they too hire people to run a multi million dollar business, and they have better information than all of us, so that explains why their moves don't make sense to the general public. We don't have the right information.

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. If you believe this team can't make a wrong decision or be questioned for any decisions, then we will have to agree to disagree. People are going to question decisions, inconsistencies, etc. It happens. If you want to argue back (ex. I thought keeping Bassitt in the game was wrong, you could easily argue why that was not the case), then that's fine, but if the only argument is "they have information none of us do so let's accept it", then that kinda defeats the purpose of a message board.

 

That same logic should extend to other teams too then. Every decision the Rockies make is good because they too hire people to run a multi million dollar business, and they have better information than all of us, so that explains why their moves don't make sense to the general public. We don't have the right information.

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. If you believe this team can't make a wrong decision or be questioned for any decisions, then we will have to agree to disagree. People are going to question decisions, inconsistencies, etc. It happens. If you want to argue back (ex. I thought keeping Bassitt in the game was wrong, you could easily argue why that was not the case), then that's fine, but if the only argument is "they have information none of us do so let's accept it", then that kinda defeats the purpose of a message board.

 

Exactly. It doesn't matter if the front office and management is 'smarter' than the board members, what matters is that they are smarter than the other front offices and managers.

 

It also matters how dedicated they are. I just saw that the Mets hired a lifetime Mets fan David Stearns as President. Do guys like Stearns, Mike Elias and AA stay up all night every night game planning, tracking player development, looking at every problem from 10 angles. Reviewing every decision, tracking every minor and major league player's health, psychology, nutrition, etc. I get the impression they do.

 

Do Shapiro and Atkins do the same? I don't get that impression. Seem like smart enough guys but not passionate like AA, the great Mike Elias, and Stearns.

 

If AA was here would he have let the Vladimir Guerrero Jr. situation get this far? Or the situation with Manoah? Would we have fired Gibbons and then had two sub-par managers replace him?

 

Maybe those situations would have happened anyway. But it seems to me AA would be more worried than the board over these things. While Shaprio and Atkins go home at 5:00 and don't stress.

 

You can be smart, but you also need passion. If the board has more passion than the front office there is an issue. What I have heard about AA is he is up all night, every night, attacking every problem from every angle, learning everything, dealing with everything, every night since he got into baseball as a letter answerer with the Expos 20 years ago.

[Brownie19]

That same logic should extend to other teams too then. Every decision the Rockies make is good because they too hire people to run a multi million dollar business, and they have better information than all of us, so that explains why their moves don't make sense to the general public. We don't have the right information.

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. If you believe this team can't make a wrong decision or be questioned for any decisions, then we will have to agree to disagree. People are going to question decisions, inconsistencies, etc. It happens. If you want to argue back (ex. I thought keeping Bassitt in the game was wrong, you could easily argue why that was not the case), then that's fine, but if the only argument is "they have information none of us do so let's accept it", then that kinda defeats the purpose of a message board.

 

You're questioning their use of the bullpen and when they pull starters - firmly opining that they aren't doing it right. I guarantee you they have better information and are making decisions based off that information. Is it perfect? Obviously not. Is there still a probability of failure? Of course there is. Are there several factors that may play into those decisions that you aren't privy to? Of course there are.

 

Pretending they are morons and continue to make lots of low percentage decisions is dumb. Having such a firm position on this is dumb. Don't be dumb.

[Brownie19]

Exactly. It doesn't matter if the front office and management is 'smarter' than the board members, what matters is that they are smarter than the other front offices and managers.

 

It also matters how dedicated they are. I just saw that the Mets hired a lifetime Mets fan David Stearns as President. Do guys like Stearns, Mike Elias and AA stay up all night every night game planning, tracking player development, looking at every problem from 10 angles. Reviewing every decision, tracking every minor and major league player's health, psychology, nutrition, etc. I get the impression they do.

 

Do Shapiro and Atkins do the same? I don't get that impression. Seem like smart enough guys but not passionate like AA, the great Mike Elias, and Stearns.

 

If AA was here would he have let the Vladimir Guerrero Jr. situation get this far? Or the situation with Manoah? Would we have fired Gibbons and then had two sub-par managers replace him?

 

Maybe those situations would have happened anyway. But it seems to me AA would be more worried than the board over these things. While Shaprio and Atkins go home at 5:00 and don't stress.

 

You can be smart, but you also need passion. If the board has more passion than the front office there is an issue. What I have heard about AA is he is up all night, every night, attacking every problem from every angle, learning everything, dealing with everything, every night since he got into baseball as a letter answerer with the Expos 20 years ago.

 

You have no idea when Atkins leaves work or how much passion he has. And obviously he relies on the team around him for most of the information as no one single person would be able to do it all. Is this FO smarter than others within baseball? Really hard to know with any conviction. I mean we're obviously not the Rockies, but we're also not the Dodgers. I would certainly seem like we're in the top 30%.

[Litmyfyr]

Jays not there!!

[BCZ]

What da faq

[Olerud363]

You have no idea when Atkins leaves work or how much passion he has. And obviously he relies on the team around him for most of the information as no one single person would be able to do it all. Is this FO smarter than others within baseball? Really hard to know with any conviction. I mean we're obviously not the Rockies, but we're also not the Dodgers. I would certainly seem like we're in the top 30%.

 

AA was interviewed a few months ago about all the long term contracts he signed guys too. Gave the impression he worked like hell on all of them. Mentioned that he did it because of the fans who buy jerseys, buying a jersey is a chunk of change for some people, and he wants the person to be able to watch the player on their jersey for years. Guy just sounds like he cares. And this goes back to stories about him from when he was hired by the Expos, just putting his heart into every menial task.

 

I was hard on him when he was with the Blue Jays but looking back on it I do get the impression that he cared about his mistakes as much as the fans. I remember the 'track team' Blue Jays of 2013. The story goes AA was negotiating the Marlins trade and Beeston was at the Loblaws board meeting at the other end helping negotiate and being super-excited about the 'track team' with Jose Reyes and Bonifacio. That didn't work out, and I get the impression AA just dedicated himself night and day to figuring it out, and then for the 2015 team got Russel Martin, Josh Donaldson, Justin Smoak, Michael Saunders and others. Switched direction.

 

Now somehow AA has a team hitting as a team, better than any Blue Jays. Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is hitting .260 .330 .420, the Braves are hitting .270 .340 .500 as a team.

 

Is this just random chance? Or is it because AA is obsessive. Spends night and day thinking about all this. Takes some personal responsibility to learn everything about the game and the latest trends, regretted being behind the curve once (in 2013) and is dedicated to working 18 hour days, being ahead of the curve, and is now ahead of the Curve on player development and hitting lab trends?

[Olerud363]

You have no idea when Atkins leaves work or how much passion he has. And obviously he relies on the team around him for most of the information as no one single person would be able to do it all. Is this FO smarter than others within baseball? Really hard to know with any conviction. I mean we're obviously not the Rockies, but we're also not the Dodgers. I would certainly seem like we're in the top 30%.

 

Guerrero. AA signed him and I bet AA cares more about what is happening to him than Shapiro or Atkins do. When AA signed him I think he made a good relationship with the family, and seeing Guerrero fall apart would have devastated him, and probably still does even from Atlanta.

 

He'd be trying to figure it out from every angle. Talk to ever member of his family, every psychologist, every nutrioninist. AA would be up night and day trying to figure this out. Get Guerrero every resource to get back on track.

 

Shapiro and Atkins? Yeah. I don't think they care. Not like AA, or Mike Elias, or David Stearns will about the Mets. Maybe I'm wrong. But just from interviews I hear on the Sirious XM I don't think they care. I think they do their jobs, perhaps competently but they aren't even fans of their own team, like AA, or David Stearns will be.

 

What do I know? I just know what I hear on Sirious XM channel 89. I don't even have much access to fan 590.

[Omar]

AA was interviewed a few months ago about all the long term contracts he signed guys too. Gave the impression he worked like hell on all of them. Mentioned that he did it because of the fans who buy jerseys, buying a jersey is a chunk of change for some people, and he wants the person to be able to watch the player on their jersey for years. Guy just sounds like he cares. And this goes back to stories about him from when he was hired by the Expos, just putting his heart into every menial task.

 

[Olerud363]

 

AA really said that. I had his quote a bit off, but is was basically that. Are you implying that AA is lying? He f***ing cares like hell. You think Shapiro and Atkins care about things like this? Bo and Guerrero will both be gone to other teams for better or worse, maybe as soon as this off season.

 

“I saw a lot of players leave,” Anthopoulos said. “I know what it was like that our good young players were being traded away or that they couldn’t keep them. So I think there’s a small part of me that feels from a fan base, you can buy this guy’s jersey because he’s going to be here a while.”

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/alex-anthopoulos-on-braves-extensions

[Omar]

AA really said that. I had his quote a bit off, but is was basically that. Are you implying that AA is lying? He f***ing cares like hell. You think Shapiro and Atkins care about things like this? Bo and Guerrero will both be gone to other teams for better or worse, maybe as soon as this off season.

 

“I saw a lot of players leave,” Anthopoulos said. “I know what it was like that our good young players were being traded away or that they couldn’t keep them. So I think there’s a small part of me that feels from a fan base, you can buy this guy’s jersey because he’s going to be here a while.”

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/alex-anthopoulos-on-braves-extensions

 

Oh I believe he said it. I'm not implying, I am outright declaring that it is ******** that he signed players to extended deals because of the fans who buy jerseys. Seem to be good business decisions, but if you believe it's because of the jerseys you are primed to buy some swamp land in Florida.

[jaysblue]

AA was interviewed a few months ago about all the long term contracts he signed guys too. Gave the impression he worked like hell on all of them. Mentioned that he did it because of the fans who buy jerseys, buying a jersey is a chunk of change for some people, and he wants the person to be able to watch the player on their jersey for years. Guy just sounds like he cares. And this goes back to stories about him from when he was hired by the Expos, just putting his heart into every menial task.

 

I was hard on him when he was with the Blue Jays but looking back on it I do get the impression that he cared about his mistakes as much as the fans. I remember the 'track team' Blue Jays of 2013. The story goes AA was negotiating the Marlins trade and Beeston was at the Loblaws board meeting at the other end helping negotiate and being super-excited about the 'track team' with Jose Reyes and Bonifacio. That didn't work out, and I get the impression AA just dedicated himself night and day to figuring it out, and then for the 2015 team got Russel Martin, Josh Donaldson, Justin Smoak, Michael Saunders and others. Switched direction.

 

Now somehow AA has a team hitting as a team, better than any Blue Jays. Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is hitting .260 .330 .420, the Braves are hitting .270 .340 .500 as a team.

 

Is this just random chance? Or is it because AA is obsessive. Spends night and day thinking about all this. Takes some personal responsibility to learn everything about the game and the latest trends, regretted being behind the curve once (in 2013) and is dedicated to working 18 hour days, being ahead of the curve, and is now ahead of the Curve on player development and hitting lab trends?

 

That's why Spanky got hosed buying that Bo jersey over the weekend. The dude is gone after 2025 and that jersey will be 50-60% off!

[jaysblue]

I was saying this over the summer and was being heavily criticized for it by some members. I don't get the praise Atkins gets on here while those same posters don't give AA the credit he deserves. All excuses during the months of May, June and July and look at where we are now. This team is a borderline playoff team, plain and simple. Enough of "oh it's bad luck," or "it's early" or "just wait until the Jays have any easier schedule after the All-Star break." Now the excuses are "everyone in the lineup is largely underperforming and that was tough to project."

 

While I don't believe all the blame should be placed on Atkins, he does own some of it. He's the one who created the roster and put it together. He's the one responsible for hiring the manager and coaching staff. He's the one who traded the teams top asset for Varsho who hasn't done much. He's the one who signed Springer to a long term deal. He's the one who made the decision to build the roster around the fact that Vlad and Bo were going to be their elite stars. He's the one who traded away some offensive minded bats like Teo and LGJ. He's the one who never addressed the issue with this lineup earlier on in the season or at the deadline when it was evident they could have used another power bat or two.

 

There should be no excuses. This team was one of the healthiest teams in baseball and it's not like they lost 1 or 2 key players to long term injuries. A number of players like Kikuchi, Whitt, Belt and KK over-performed. The Jays even ended up getting Ryu and Green back for the stretch run. They had a lot of luck on their side considering.

 

During his tenure, his teams have produced ZERO playoff wins to this date. Atkins has made some solid moves and has fielded competitive teams, but the homerism surrounding him on here is too much. So far his tenure here has been subpar when you look at the results to date.

[Brownie19]

Guerrero. AA signed him and I bet AA cares more about what is happening to him than Shapiro or Atkins do. When AA signed him I think he made a good relationship with the family, and seeing Guerrero fall apart would have devastated him, and probably still does even from Atlanta.

 

He'd be trying to figure it out from every angle. Talk to ever member of his family, every psychologist, every nutrioninist. AA would be up night and day trying to figure this out. Get Guerrero every resource to get back on track.

 

Shapiro and Atkins? Yeah. I don't think they care. Not like AA, or Mike Elias, or David Stearns will about the Mets. Maybe I'm wrong. But just from interviews I hear on the Sirious XM I don't think they care. I think they do their jobs, perhaps competently but they aren't even fans of their own team, like AA, or David Stearns will be.

 

What do I know? I just know what I hear on Sirious XM channel 89. I don't even have much access to fan 590.

 

Basing your opinions off what someone says in an interview if f***ing stupid Olerud. Be better.

 

We have a Top 5 pitching staff in all of baseball and we have fans suggesting the FO and Manager are morons and have no idea how to manage a bullpen. I get people are frustrated, but enough with the nonsense.

[Brownie19]

I was saying this over the summer and was being heavily criticized for it by some members. I don't get the praise Atkins gets on here while those same posters don't give AA the credit he deserves. All excuses during the months of May, June and July and look at where we are now. This team is a borderline playoff team, plain and simple. Enough of "oh it's bad luck," or "it's early" or "just wait until the Jays have any easier schedule after the All-Star break." Now the excuses are "everyone in the lineup is largely underperforming and that was tough to project."

 

While I don't believe all the blame should be placed on Atkins, he does own some of it. He's the one who created the roster and put it together. He's the one responsible for hiring the manager and coaching staff. He's the one who traded the teams top asset for Varsho who hasn't done much. He's the one who signed Springer to a long term deal. He's the one who made the decision to build the roster around the fact that Vlad and Bo were going to be their elite stars. He's the one who traded away some offensive minded bats like Teo and LGJ. He's the one who never addressed the issue with this lineup earlier on in the season or at the deadline when it was evident they could have used another power bat or two.

 

There should be no excuses. This team was one of the healthiest teams in baseball and it's not like they lost 1 or 2 key players to long term injuries. A number of players like Kikuchi, Whitt, Belt and KK over-performed. The Jays even ended up getting Ryu and Green back for the stretch run. They had a lot of luck on their side considering.

 

During his tenure, his teams have produced ZERO playoff wins to this date. Atkins has made some solid moves and has fielded competitive teams, but the homerism surrounding him on here is too much. So far his tenure here has been subpar when you look at the results to date.

 

You forgot that Atkins should have solid high on Manoah last offseason and ought to have known he's s*** the bed and wasn't someone you should build around.

 

I'm also not sure why excuses aren't allowed? If an excuse is simply a reasonable explanation for the outcome - why isn't that allowed? People who think there should never be excuses for failure are dumb.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Brownie19

[Stangstag]

You forgot that Atkins should have solid high on Manoah last offseason and ought to have known he's s*** the bed and wasn't someone you should build around.

 

I'm also not sure why excuses aren't allowed? If an excuse is simply a reasonable explanation for the outcome - why isn't that allowed? People who think there should never be excuses for failure are dumb.

 

Didn’t sell high on Manoah, Kirk or Vlad.

 

FAIL gm

[Spanky99]

You forgot that Atkins should have solid high on Manoah last offseason and ought to have known he's s*** the bed and wasn't someone you should build around.

 

I'm also not sure why excuses aren't allowed? If an excuse is simply a reasonable explanation for the outcome - why isn't that allowed? People who think there should never be excuses for failure are dumb.

 

Some members... same posters, lmao, this f***ing guy.

[Spanky99]

That's why Spanky got hosed buying that Bo jersey over the weekend. The dude is gone after 2025 and that jersey will be 50-60% off!

 

Wat?

[jaysblue]

You forgot that Atkins should have solid high on Manoah last offseason and ought to have known he's s*** the bed and wasn't someone you should build around.

 

I'm also not sure why excuses aren't allowed? If an excuse is simply a reasonable explanation for the outcome - why isn't that allowed? People who think there should never be excuses for failure are dumb.

 

I think Atkins deserves some blame for this season and I'm sure he would admit that as well. At the end of the day, he put this roster together. Majority of the players in this lineup have struggled, not just one or two players. So I'm assuming it's all just bad luck or maybe we have to question the decision making made by Atkins and the FO. They're the smart ones who know more than we do, and have access to projections that we don't. Can't believe so many of those projections went sideways, especially since these guys are all brilliant!

[jaysblue]

Some members... same posters, lmao, this f***ing guy.

 

At least Brownie, while he can be condescending at times, actually makes arguments. You just sit on the sidelines and offer nothing to the conversation.

[jaysblue]

Didn’t sell high on Manoah, Kirk or Vlad.

 

FAIL gm

 

It's hilarious how you've been whining about this team and front office over the last week. Completely different tunes from May and June.

 

I mean you even criticized this front office at the end of the 2021 season and 2022, yet when I said the same thing as you back in the summer, you were calling me out.

[Spanky99]

At least Brownie, while he can be condescending at times, actually makes arguments. Me and him never will agree on things, but I respect him. You just sit on the sidelines and offer nothing to the conversation.

 

Yeah okay, something irking you Sil... that s***'s lame, AA left Atkins in a good spot says all I need to know, man.

[jaysblue]

Yeah okay, something irking you Sil... that s***'s lame, AA left Atkins in a good spot says all I need to know, man.

 

The Jays almost won a World Series in 2016 during Atkins' first season here lol. Where have you been?

[Brownie19]

I think Atkins deserves some blame for this season and I'm sure he would admit that as well. At the end of the day, he put this roster together. Majority of the players in this lineup have struggled, not just one or two players. So I'm assuming it's all just bad luck or maybe we have to question the decision making made by Atkins and the FO. They're the smart ones who know more than we do, and have access to projections that we don't. Can't believe so many of those projections went sideways, especially since these guys are all brilliant!

 

Oh for sure the FO deserves some of the blame. So does the manager and the players. How much? Beats me, but I think most of it falls on the players. Does blame need to be assigned to this entire season? Probably not. Some of it is just bad luck/timing that it out of the control of various parties. Sometimes a lot of people can do the right thing and it still fails. That's how probabilities work.

[Spanky99]

The Jays almost won a World Series in 2016 during Atkins' first season here lol. Where have you been?

 

So now you're giving Atkins credit for that, are you f***ed in the head? lmao... continue talking out both sides of your mouth, mate.

[max silver]

The Jays almost won a World Series in 2016 during Atkins' first season here lol. Where have you been?

Aging expensive team with a 1-2 year window at best. One of MLB's worst farm systems with no MLB ready reinforcements to replace the aging veterans either.

[jaysblue]

Oh for sure the FO deserves some of the blame. So does the manager and the players. How much? Beats me, but I think most of it falls on the players. Does blame need to be assigned to this entire season? Probably not. Some of it is just bad luck/timing that it out of the control of various parties. Sometimes a lot of people can do the right thing and it still fails. That's how probabilities work.

 

Yeah I agree. I think majority of the blame is on the players first and foremost. Then on the manager and some of the coaching staff. Like I said before, I have no issue with Atkins returning in 2024. Also, couldn't care if he was gone. But yeah I think he should have another go at it and have a chance to finish what he started.

[jaysblue]

So now you're giving Atkins credit for that, are you f***ed in the head? lmao... continue talking out both sides of your mouth, mate.

 

Where did I give Atkins full credit for 2016? Sure he complimented the roster well with signing JA Happ and at the trade deadline going after Grilli and Liriano. He did a very nice job. But yeah taking over a team that almost won the World Series isn't that bad of a thing you dingleberry!

 

Stop putting words into my mouth!

[jaysblue]

Aging expensive team with a 1-2 year window at best. One of MLB's worst farm systems with no MLB ready reinforcements to replace the aging veterans either.

 

Where do you think the Jays will be after 2024 and 2025? Aging veterans, top players like Bo hitting free agency and no elite prospects knocking on the door.

 

So far during the prime years of their window, the Jays haven't won a Postseason game yet. Hope that could change this season, but gotta make the Postseason first.

[Spanky99]

Where did I give Atkins full credit for 2016? Sure he complimented the roster well with signing JA Happ and at the trade deadline going after Grilli and Liriano. But yeah taking over a team that almost won the World Series isn't that bad of a thing you dingleberry!

 

Stop putting words into my mouth and the low level insults!

 

Ughhh... he left them with a barrened team on a 1 year window, sure the run was nice but we got in on a WC game and took off from there. Atkins has had these guys contending for 4 years now, yet here we are, and I like AA.

 

Low level insults, lol. Thicker skin, mate.

[jaysblue]

Ughhh... he left them with a barrened team on a 1 year window, sure the run was nice but we got in on a WC game and took off from there. Atkins has had these guys contending for 4 years now, yet here we are.

 

The Jays still planned on being competitive in 2017 and even in 2018, then started to tear things down. If they felt the window closed, Atkins should have traded Donaldson, Happ, Osuna, Stroman etc. earlier. But we don't know if Rogers had a say in that decision after those huge 2015 and 2016 seasons where excitement was at an all time high.

 

Sucks guys like Devon Travis, Jose Bautista, Tulo, Martin were finished and Aaron Sanchez and Liriano turned into pumpkins on the pitching side. If guys stayed healthy, I think the Jays still had another year or two of a window until 2018. Didn't work out that way though.

 

Atkins has done a great job putting a competitive team on the field for the last 4 years (including the shortened 2020 season). Though ZERO Postseason wins to date with the extra WC spots and balanced schedule. Yet here we are.