GDT: Toronto Blow Jays @ Tampa Bay Unbeatables

[Nexii]

No offence but I just reject these narratives. Teo and LGJ and the home run jacket were made villain's by many with any disappointment over '21 and '22.

 

Most of us had issues with Buntoyo. I did. He is gone. In come Schneids preaching its about attention to detail and the little things. They have Belt and Springer who have won championships on the squad. KK has had a ton of team success.

 

But here we are in '23. Still 2/3 of the season left so we'll see how it all pans out but maybe this team just isn't as good collectively as we thought/hoped.

 

FWIW I think Schneider is okay as a leader. I think the issues are more on the conditioning/development side than with that. It seems weird to spend so much money on a development facility and end up with players that aren't conditioned for a 162 game season. Are players not working with their training staff or what? Or is it a facility with not much guidance? You'd think they'd have this stuff nailed given the overall payroll and operating budget

[John_Havok]

FWIW I think Schneider is okay as a leader. I think the issues are more on the conditioning/development side than with that. It seems weird to spend so much money on a development facility and end up with players that aren't conditioned for a 162 game season. Are players not working with their training staff or what? Or is it a facility with not much guidance? You'd think they'd have this stuff nailed given the overall payroll and operating budget

 

Keep in mind that facility has been up and running for... 2 seasons. Might take a few years to get the pipeline rolling at 100%. Data, camera, spin rates etc... all of that is great to have, but its just as important to have the right people around to dissect the data and be able to communicate it effectively. Those types are probably few and far between

 

 

As for conditioning, you can lead a fatty to salad, you can't make him eat it. Take it from a current (albeit shrinking) fatty, any sort of want for improvement to conditioning has to come from within. People can point it out to you until theyre blue in the face, but it will not work unless the person wants to do it.

[DCJaysF]

Here is my long ass post, apologies in advance. TLTR version is Manoah was never suppose to be as good as last year so let’s not lose our s*** over it. We need better lineup construction to score more runs.

 

I feel for Manoah, I like the kid and want him to succeed. But let’s be honest, he was never projected to be like last year. Steamer projected him as 4.06 ERA. Zips was a little kinder with a 3.43 ERA( solid, not elite but solid).

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/alek-man...-at-the-seams/

 

We’re gonna win or lose with the BP, we need to pick up some more high leverage arms before the end of the trade deadline( easier said then done I know).

 

Belt is finally hitting better. Varsho can’t be in the top four of the line up until he improves. He needs to slide down to 6 or 7.

 

Jansen might be better at managing pitchers but at least Kirk will get more at bats with Danny out for a bit. Too many players on the Jays suffer from plantooning too much. It’s hard to hit in the big leagues, even more so when you don’t get to play every day. Kirk has always hit, every year at every level. So if Kirk gets regular at bats he’ll hit.

 

I love Springers attitude and the gusto he plays with but guy has trouble staying on the field.

 

Chappy is great but I doubt he’s a .900 OPS .300 BA hitter even with the adjustments he’s made. More likely he’s closer to his lifetime .245 BA .800 OPS. Still quality and an amazing defender etc, but we need guys behind Bo and Vlad that can cash them in since they both get on base a lot and Chappy hits into a lot of double plays in between hits. If Springer is hitting well when he gets healthy I might move him to fourth. I know he likes to be leadoff but his lifetime stats indicate that he’s a better bet to cash in Bo and Vlad who keep getting stranded on base a lot.

 

Maybe move Merrifeild up to lead off. Keep KK where he is for now as he’s excelled at turning the lineup over so far.

 

Merrifield, Bo,Vlad,Springer, Belt, Chapman,Kirk, Varsho,KK my new experimental lineup vs righties

 

A little easier for teams to match up as it does put two lefties back to back twice in the lineup.but for the first 5-7 innings your likely facing starters so they won’t be switching pitchers on you unless you’ve already knocked the starter out which is a good thing. Later in the game we can bring in players off the bench to play chess with match ups.

 

Point is Bo and Vlad are both hitting .300 plus with good OBP, but they are the only ones on the team that consistent atm. So we need to bring them in to score and Chappy is regressing some and Varsho isn’t there yet. Get to two outs with a guy on second ( maybe Bo) and opposing teams don’t have to give Vlad anything to hit now. They can pitch around him and pitch to Varsho or a slumping Chappy and get out of the inning with no damage. Put Springer or Belt behind Vald and now if they pitch around Vlad we have runners on 1st and 2nd with a guy that can bring them in more often at the plate.

 

They are getting overly concerned with switching between lefty righty all through the lineup where we just need to cash in our good hitters. That awful runners left in scoring position stat isn’t completely bad luck. It’s partially due to lineup construction.

[Nexii]

Keep in mind that facility has been up and running for... 2 seasons. Might take a few years to get the pipeline rolling at 100%. Data, camera, spin rates etc... all of that is great to have, but its just as important to have the right people around to dissect the data and be able to communicate it effectively. Those types are probably few and far between

 

 

As for conditioning, you can lead a fatty to salad, you can't make him eat it. Take it from a current (albeit shrinking) fatty, any sort of want for improvement to conditioning has to come from within. People can point it out to you until theyre blue in the face, but it will not work unless the person wants to do it.

 

Yea fair. It's too bad the average fan doesn't get much insight into the inner workings. Competitive advantage and all that

[wilko]

There was a poster on these boards who dubbed Teoscar the Mirage a few years back. Turns out the mirage was Manoah.

 

Pretty big mirage.

[DCJaysF]

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/alek-manoah-is-falling-apart-at-the-seams/

 

The link from above that didn’t work

[TorontonianJD]

Could some of the Jays problem be culture? Do other teams have issues with players showing up out of shape? Vlad in the past, Manoah this year, debatably Kirk too. A lot of lack of hustle too, I feel like every other game there's a play that if legged out would have been a hit or extra base. I get that it's a long season but it often feels like the team isn't being managed to give their best.

 

I feel like it goes deeper into the player development approach as well... teams like the Rays seem to develop average players into above-average. Maybe the Jays will see the results of the better development facilities, but this year a lot of players have taken a step back.

 

Oh Kirk is most definitely out of shape.

 

KK the only one that really hussles. Well, him and Chapman.

 

Another reason Atkins should be fired….for keeping Schneider as the manager after that debacle in the playoff game! Then he makes rash trades that are coming back to bite us!

[TorontonianJD]

Is there a reason, other than "Schneider gonna Schneider", that Clement pinch hit for Varsho?

 

Yeah weird decision.

[TorontonianJD]

Caleb Joseph post game made a comment to Jamie Campbell that around the 50 game mark GMs know what their team is about and if scuffling - they will drop a bomb and make big moves. I think he was hinting at certain players being sent down. Hint hint Manoah and Biggio.

[John_Havok]

Oh Kirk is most definitely out of shape.

 

KK the only one that really hussles. Well, him and Chapman.

 

Another reason Atkins should be fired….for keeping Schneider as the manager after that debacle in the playoff game! Then he makes rash trades that are coming back to bite us!

 

Bichette, Varsho, Merrifled, Jansen, Biggio and Springer all bust it pretty consistently. Overall lack of hustle is not this team's issue. Firing a manager after 1 playoff game woul dbe the height of stupidity.

 

Swear to the flying f***ing spaghetti monster if some fans ran teams they'd fire their managers and coaches every week and wonder why things aren't any different.

[DCJaysF]

Caleb Joseph post game made a comment to Jamie Campbell that around the 50 game mark GMs know what their team is about and if scuffling - they will drop a bomb and make big moves. I think he was hinting at certain players being sent down. Hint hint Manoah and Biggio.

 

Lol Biggio is hardly our big problem. He’s been relegated to a utility player that is only getting more plying time now due to injures anyways. In fact the more Biggio gets to play the better I think he’ll do. Platooning hasn’t helped the kid much. He has value in the field given how many positions he plays. If he gets more at bats I’m fine if he can hit .240 again and walk like he use to. He’s a number 8 hitting utility sub, hardly our biggest concern.

 

I still maintain my above belief that we’re not constructing this lineup to cash in our most consistent hitters. Whoever hits behind Vlad on the regular has to have a much higher OPS than Varsho does atm. Lifetime Springer has been higher than Chapman as well and I think a healthy Belt ( he wasn’t healthy last year) is a solid hitter as well. Bo and Vlad will continue to get hits, who’s gonna cash them in? Put Springer behind Vlad and Belt behind him and then Chappy next.

 

You’d score a few more runs a game like that imo

[philly30]

Bichette, Varsho, Merrifled, Jansen, Biggio and Springer all bust it pretty consistently. Overall lack of hustle is not this team's issue. Firing a manager after 1 playoff game woul dbe the height of stupidity.

 

Swear to the flying f***ing spaghetti monster if some fans ran teams they'd fire their managers and coaches every week and wonder why things aren't any different.

 

People want to believe it is the manager's fault because that is the easiest fix

[JFD]

Swear to the flying f***ing spaghetti monster if some fans ran teams they'd fire their managers and coaches every week and wonder why things aren't any different.

 

Seemed to work for George Steinbrenner

[John_Havok]

People want to believe it is the manager's fault because that is the easiest fix

 

There's no such thing as an easy fix. The manager is the easiest scapegoat though i'll give you that.

[Daniel Labude]

Kirk standing up in the middle of a pitch is just the definition of stupid

[jaysblue]

Got to move Springer down in the lineup, same with Varsho.

 

Send Manoah down to AAA or place him on the IL.

[Orgfiller]

Got to move Springer down in the lineup, same with Varsho.

 

Send Manoah down to AAA or place him on the IL.

 

Springer is finally regressing to his xStats and career numbers and you wanna move him down lol. 136 wRC+ in May, .335 xWOBA this season. He's fine unless you want to flip him and Bo for whatever reason and fix something that isn't broken. Springer's power will return, no reason to move him around in the lineup.