General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[connorp]

Can you imagine if NYY did that and like trade someone like Judge 2 years before FA. Imagine if the prospects didn’t work out too lol. One way Cashman may finally lose his job

[max silver]

His trades and signings are very good. His drafting and development is non existent.

 

That's not entirely fair given how many home grown players populate the roster along with having several players on the cusp of graduating the system. There have been a lot of high profile first round busts but this has at least been mitigated to a degree as some of these guys have been shipped out to supplement the MLB roster.

[AdamGreenwood]

If we trade Bo, we can sign TA for $2 million and free self-defense classes on how to take a punch.

[connorp]

That's not entirely fair given how many home grown players populate the roster along with having several players on the cusp of graduating the system. There have been a lot of high profile first round busts but this has at least been mitigated to a degree as some of these guys have been shipped out to supplement the MLB roster.

 

Well all the eggs are in this basket. 0 playoff games won in the last 4 years. Window is shrinking each year with current roster.

[MikeM3]

That's not entirely fair given how many home grown players populate the roster along with having several players on the cusp of graduating the system. There have been a lot of high profile first round busts but this has at least been mitigated to a degree as some of these guys have been shipped out to supplement the MLB roster.

 

Depending on who you give credit to for the 2016 draft, I think the AA regime has almost as many players here as Atkins.

 

What is it like Vlad Romano Mayza Jansen and then Biggio/Bichette who knows. And Ross definitely has uhh Schneider, Manoah and Kirk. And I guess whatever Pearson is contributing.

[John_Havok]

His trades and signings are very good. His drafting and development is non existent.

 

Obviously just trading and signing catches up to you because you start losing leverage and have to cover holes so you end up trading Moreno for Varsho because you don't have a single other CF anywhere in the system and you can't play your old FA signing Springer there and he makes a ton of money so you can't let him get hurt

 

How is it non-existent? Just because his guys don’t take up X number of spots on prospect lists every year doesn’t really mean all that much.

 

Also, if the only way you evaluate drafting a development is if every guy drafted comes up to play for the Jays and excels, then every team in baseball sucks at drafting and development overall.

 

Using prospects as trade bait is one aspect of a farm systems value.

 

Jays also got 3 fWAR this season from 3 guys who combined for only like 230 PAs, none of whom even sniffed top 100 status like…ever. That doesn’t support your narrative of “non-existent”

 

Manoah was a Cy young runner up on his second full season. not exactly “non-existent ”

 

Also, understand I’m not saying the Jays system is stacked or anything and his drafting and development is amazing either; just that his drafting and development, while definitely an area that could use improvement, is not “non existent” by any stretch of the imagination.

[Ehjays]

Smart organizations trade guys like this (top players who they know they can't keep long term due to cost/inability to reach an extension/desire to be somewhere else) with 1.5-2 years of control left rather than waiting for them to walk for a draft pick (a draft pick that doesn't even come in the first TWO rounds anymore at that)

 

Dumb ones wait too long (Orioles and Machado, Red Sox and Betts, Angels and Ohtani, etc...)

 

It sucks and the fans hate it at first but sometimes it's just the right thing to do

 

(All that said I still hope they can sign him long term but if feels like that might be a problem)

 

I always feel we waited too long to trade Donaldson, Finally when deadline day showed up all we could get for a former MVP was a minor leaguer that was constantly hurt. Also, when Stroman was traded alot of execs said the Jays were offered better from multiple teams.

[Jimcanuck]

I always feel we waited too long to trade Donaldson, Finally when deadline day showed up all we could get for a former MVP was a minor leaguer that was constantly hurt. Also, when Stroman was traded alot of execs said the Jays were offered better from multiple teams.

 

No question they waited too long on JD. My view is as soon as you decide a player is not in future plans (due to age, contention window, unlikely to resign, or whatever), then trade ASAP. Simply too much risk of injury in baseball, including through offseason training.

[max silver]

Depending on who you give credit to for the 2016 draft, I think the AA regime has almost as many players here as Atkins.

 

What is it like Vlad Romano Mayza Jansen and then Biggio/Bichette who knows. And Ross definitely has uhh Schneider, Manoah and Kirk. And I guess whatever Pearson is contributing.

 

The 2016 draft featured Atkins at the helm so I fail to see how he shouldn't get any credit for ultimately selecting Bo.

 

The AA regime should get very close to none of the credit for developing anybody on the current roster as he was long gone by the time most of these guys even made it past rookie ball.

[burlingtonbandit]

How is it non-existent? Just because his guys donÂ’t take up X number of spots on prospect lists every year doesnÂ’t really mean all that much.

 

Also, if the only way you evaluate drafting a development is if every guy drafted comes up to play for the Jays and excels, then every team in baseball sucks at drafting and development overall.

 

Using prospects as trade bait is one aspect of a farm systems value.

 

Jays also got 3 fWAR this season from 3 guys who combined for only like 230 PAs, none of whom even sniffed top 100 status like…ever. That doesn’t support your narrative of “non-existent”

 

Manoah was a Cy young runner up on his second full season. not exactly “non-existent ”

 

Also, understand I’m not saying the Jays system is stacked or anything and his drafting and development is amazing either; just that his drafting and development, while definitely an area that could use improvement, is not “non existent” by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Its not non existent and not as bad as the terrible Orgs. like the Rockies/Royals/Angels but its below average. And this is from a FO who has stressed its importance from the beginning. Its one thing to understand that drafting and developing is important but its another to actually follow through. The division rival Orioles FO came in and did an overhaul 3 years after the Jays FO came in, with way less resources.

 

Its sad to even have to point out that Horowitz is a player development success when describing the Jays FO as he's a dime a dozen 1B.

[burlingtonbandit]

The 2016 draft featured Atkins at the helm so I fail to see how he shouldn't get any credit for ultimately selecting Bo.

 

The AA regime should get very close to none of the credit for developing anybody on the current roster as he was long gone by the time most of these guys even made it past rookie ball.

 

Didn't the FO want someone else and there was a scout or someone else in the Org. clamoring for them to draft Bo? I meant they took TJ zeuch before him...

[Jimcanuck]

Even a moron would have success drafting for the O's the last several years.

[L54]

How is it non-existent? Just because his guys don’t take up X number of spots on prospect lists every year doesn’t really mean all that much.

 

Also, if the only way you evaluate drafting a development is if every guy drafted comes up to play for the Jays and excels, then every team in baseball sucks at drafting and development overall.

 

Using prospects as trade bait is one aspect of a farm systems value.

 

Jays also got 3 fWAR this season from 3 guys who combined for only like 230 PAs, none of whom even sniffed top 100 status like…ever. That doesn’t support your narrative of “non-existent”

 

Manoah was a Cy young runner up on his second full season. not exactly “non-existent ”

 

Also, understand I’m not saying the Jays system is stacked or anything and his drafting and development is amazing either; just that his drafting and development, while definitely an area that could use improvement, is not “non existent” by any stretch of the imagination.

 

By “nonexistent” do you think he meant they don’t actually exist?

[max silver]

Didn't the FO want someone else and there was a scout or someone else in the Org. clamoring for them to draft Bo? I meant they took TJ zeuch before him...

 

I recall the scouting director at the time was an AA hire that was replaced after the 2016 draft or thereabouts. If Atkins doesn't get credit for drafting Bo then by that same logic he should take none of the blame for the terrible Zeuch selection either.

 

If Atkins wanted somebody other than Bo that badly then he simply would have selected the other player. This is nothing more than a pile of nonsense spouted by Atkins detractors to assign credit for a great draft pick to somebody else instead of Atkins.

[wamco]

The Jays should just go hard in the paint on Yamamoto and go in-house with some of these positions and pick up platoon bats.

 

Agreed. Heyward in lf vs rhp. (Carlson crushes lhp last year if we went to pursue that for lf or cf platoon.

Winker can hit lhp as a 3bman.

[L54]

Its not non existent and not as bad as the terrible Orgs. like the Rockies/Royals/Angels but it’s below average. And this is from a FO who has stressed its importance from the beginning. It’s one thing to understand that drafting and developing is important but it’s another to actually follow through. The division rival Orioles FO came in and did an overhaul 3 years after the Jays FO came in, with way less resources.

 

It’s sad to even have to point out that Horowitz is a player development success when describing the Jays FO as he's a dime a dozen 1B.

 

Horowitz and Hagen Danner - huge victories for the high performance department

[wamco]

It kind of stares at you for this team.

 

Adding Yamamoto would provide a consistently for Atkins/jays. Great staff 1-14.

 

Why does no one talk of signing ryu or Kikuchi tho? What would it take to sign/extend at this point ??

 

Ryu 2/32

Kikuchi 2/32?

[burlingtonbandit]

I recall the scouting director at the time was an AA hire that was replaced after the 2016 draft or thereabouts. If Atkins doesn't get credit for drafting Bo then by that same logic he should take none of the blame for the terrible Zeuch selection either.

 

If Atkins wanted somebody other than Bo that badly then he simply would have selected the other player. This is nothing more than a pile of nonsense spouted by Atkins detractors to assign credit for a great draft pick to somebody else instead of Atkins.

 

I mean its not even the GM that selects players its the scouting director. Also who care if you call Bo a success story because of Atkins or not, I was more just saying if you look at the last 7/8 years the Blue Jays have been a poor drafting team especially when you factor in where they were drafting for a lot of those years.

 

It takes a lot of time to overhaul a player development system more than just a couple years but we are in year 8 here and there isn't much to show for it.

[burlingtonbandit]

The Blue Jays have by all accounts one of the very best baseball facilities in Dunedin as well. You would think with those facilities you would be getting the higher percentile outcomes with a lot of the players you are bringing in. So either the Jays have been terrible at drafting or the coaching is really bad.

[Frenchsoup]

Horowitz and Hagen Danner - huge victories for the high performance department

 

Horowitz is sick from the glimpse and video i saw. Could deal .......Would deal Hagen right now if i were the jays. You think MLB clubs would have interest in him?

[max silver]

The Blue Jays have by all accounts one of the very best baseball facilities in Dunedin as well. You would think with those facilities you would be getting the higher percentile outcomes with a lot of the players you are bringing in. So either the Jays have been terrible at drafting or the coaching is really bad.

 

The player development complex only fully opened up for use a few years ago. It appears that it is starting to bear fruit given the recent wave of players working their way through the system.

[Frenchsoup]

The Blue Jays have by all accounts one of the very best baseball facilities in Dunedin as well. You would think with those facilities you would be getting the higher percentile outcomes with a lot of the players you are bringing in. So either the Jays have been terrible at drafting or the coaching is really bad.

 

Yeah it's nice to have a 2nd home in Dunedin. This Franchise is worth a lot.

[John_Havok]

By “nonexistent” do you think he meant they don’t actually exist?

 

What can I say, pointless hyperbole without substance is just that....pointless.

[hanton]

Gibby Mets bench coach

 

https://theathletic.com/5084606/2023/11/22/mets-john-gibbons-bench-coach/

[L54]

Gibby Mets bench coach

 

https://theathletic.com/5084606/2023/11/22/mets-john-gibbons-bench-coach/

 

Good for Gibby. Jays missed out

[L54]

What can I say, pointless hyperbole without substance is just that....pointless.

 

Well it’s not really pointless, it’s more an emphasis on how bad it has been which you admitted yourself in a round about way

[L54]

Horowitz is sick from the glimpse and video i saw. Could deal .......Would deal Hagen right now if i were the jays. You think MLB clubs would have interest in him?

 

My post was tongue in cheek as those are one of the few success stories from the Jays High Performance Department. A couple interesting relief prospects and Lyle Overbay lite

 

Teams would definitely have interest in Danner but doubt he’s valued super high

[Frenchsoup]

Overbay was sick, never had a problem with that guy.

[burlingtonbandit]

The player development complex only fully opened up for use a few years ago. It appears that it is starting to bear fruit given the recent wave of players working their way through the system.

 

As a Jays fan you would hope so because like I said in the last 7 years there really isn't much to show from the draft. At the same time its been open for what 2 years? So you would think some of the prospects would have taken a big step this year and looking at their top 15 guys coming into the season it looks like there has been just as many cases of players regressing as progressing.

[Frenchsoup]

Where did Davis Schneider come from?