General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[Laika]

I'd be trading him if his value is peaking right now given the FA context

 

hacker with fringe defense... not exactly a comfortable guy to extend for a decade anyway

[wilko]

It depends on information only the Jays have, namely, how receptive Bo is to extension talks. Without a doubt, the Jays have attempted to talk extension.

 

I think he wants to test the market. It would take a crazy deal from the Jays for him to accept.. allegedly.

[connorp]

Just another situation of standard GMing becoming a thing. At least 2/3+ of the league is going to be hesitant on giving 100/300 or whatever Bo is thinking. 2 years out if definitely the time to check in with some other teams on packages they’d offer. Doesn’t mean it’ll happen, or they won’t end up signing him. Can’t the guy ever do anything without it leaking.

Maybe he can share how often he takes a piss

[glory]

I'd be trading him if his value is peaking right now given the FA context

 

hacker with fringe defense... not exactly a comfortable guy to extend for a decade anyway

 

Yeah Bo on a long term deal is not going to end well for whoever signs him, IMO. His current performance, while excellent, is probably his ceiling, and he has a very risky offensive profile as he ages. I could see the logic in moving him whether he was difficult to sign or not, but once you factor in that he seems to want to test FA to maximize his earnings, it becomes a lot more justifiable to sell high. The issue for the Jays is they have a small window to contend right now so while moving him might make sense from a sustainability standpoint, it might hinder their ability to contend in 2024 depending on who they get back and/or who they get to replace him. Maybe you make a deal with the Cubs (Morel, etc) and then make a separate deal for someone like Willy Adames (who I'm assuming would be easier to extend but who knows), and the team wouldn't lose that much. I don't know, seems super unlikely that the Jays would do it, but who knows what's going on behind the scenes.

[Jimcanuck]

Yeah Bo on a long term deal is not going to end well for whoever signs him, IMO. His current performance, while excellent, is probably his ceiling, and he has a very risky offensive profile as he ages. I could see the logic in moving him whether he was difficult to sign or not, but once you factor in that he seems to want to test FA to maximize his earnings, it becomes a lot more justifiable to sell high. The issue for the Jays is they have a small window to contend right now so while moving him might make sense from a sustainability standpoint, it might hinder their ability to contend in 2024 depending on who they get back and/or who they get to replace him. Maybe you make a deal with the Cubs (Morel, etc) and then make a separate deal for someone like Willy Adames (who I'm assuming would be easier to extend but who knows), and the team wouldn't lose that much. I don't know, seems super unlikely that the Jays would do it, but who knows what's going on behind the scenes.

 

Trading Bo does not necessarily make the team worse. Atkins tends to come out on the winning side of trades.

[Jays24]

So we're going to improve our offense by trading our best offensive player by far. f*** man... this better not be it.

[Jays24]

Trading Bo does not necessarily make the team worse. Atkins tends to come out on the winning side of trades.

 

Moreno and Gurriel say hi lol

[Brownie19]

Just another situation of standard GMing becoming a thing. At least 2/3+ of the league is going to be hesitant on giving 100/300 or whatever Bo is thinking. 2 years out if definitely the time to check in with some other teams on packages they’d offer. Doesn’t mean it’ll happen, or they won’t end up signing him. Can’t the guy ever do anything without it leaking.

Maybe he can share how often he takes a piss

 

Did the other 1/3 of the league sign Turner, Boogy, Correa and Swanson last year? Seems to me there's still a lot of interest in locking up the elite SS's. You may favor some of those players skills over Bo's, but Bo is right up there with those guys.

[gruber92]

Trading Bo does not necessarily make the team worse. Atkins tends to come out on the winning side of trades.

 

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLlllllllllllll

[Ehjays]

[Ehjays]

Another In depth thread by Chris Black on Bo and his defence.

 

[Spanky99]

So we're going to improve our offense by trading our best offensive player by far. f*** man... this better not be it.

 

Sky's fallin'

[glory]

If this is a Morosi generated rumor, then it's just him getting off on whatever engagement it leads to. In other words, the norm for him.

[Jays24]

Sky's fallin'

 

If we trade our best offensive player when our offense is the clear weakness then hell ya, the sky is falling.

 

Based on the track record of Shatkins, my overreaction has been more on point than you're "everything the Bluejays do is great" approach lol.

[MikeM3]

He's not gonna extend here. It's as simple as that. I'm actually happy and surprised Atkins would be so proactive.

[Spanky99]

If we trade our best offensive player when our offense is the clear weakness then hell ya, the sky is falling.

 

Based on the track record of Shatkins, my overreaction has been more on point than you're "everything the Bluejays do is great" approach lol.

 

[glory]

Trading Bo does not necessarily make the team worse. Atkins tends to come out on the winning side of trades.

 

If Atkins can gain some good young players with post 2025 control in return then there’s definitely upside with a trade. Between the extra Wild Card spot and the Jays willingness to spend, keeping the train moving post 2025 is a much better alternative than going all in for 2024-25 and having to rebuild after. They always had to factor the balancing act between being competitive and building for the future. If they aren’t going to extend anyone (they don’t even want to extend Jansen from the sounds of it), and the farm system isn’t churning out talent like the O’s have recently, then they have to make trades like this eventually.

[burlingtonbandit]

Bad drafting and developing over the last 7 years catching up with the Jays. For all the talk by Shapiro and co about player development being a massive priority and them neing a sustainable winner, they don't have much to show for it in 7 years. Their player acquisitions have actually been pretty good but they've struggled in the draft. They whiffed on 2 high picks in Martin and Groshans and since 2016 only Manoah has really provided any value out of their first round picks. ?I know first round picks aren't the be all end all, but the below list is pretty bad for a FO that preaches drafting and developing. Not like they've drafted any stars outside the first round either, Bichette withstanding.

 

Zeuch

Warmoth

Pearson

Groshans

Manoah

Martin

Hoglund

Barriera

Nimmala

[Jimcanuck]

If we trade our best offensive player when our offense is the clear weakness then hell ya, the sky is falling.

 

Based on the track record of Shatkins, my overreaction has been more on point than you're "everything the Bluejays do is great" approach lol.

 

Read what I posted again with a focus on the word "tends"

 

Also, would you be OK if Bichette walks for nothing in 2 years?

[G-Snarls]

Trading Bo does not necessarily make the team worse. Atkins tends to come out on the winning side of trades.

 

Atkins success rates in descending order:

 

Signing free agent pitchers

 

Signing stop gap 1 year free agent position players

 

Drafting

 

Contract extensions

 

Trades

[G-Snarls]

He's not gonna extend here. It's as simple as that. I'm actually happy and surprised Atkins would be so proactive.

 

Smart organizations trade guys like this (top players who they know they can't keep long term due to cost/inability to reach an extension/desire to be somewhere else) with 1.5-2 years of control left rather than waiting for them to walk for a draft pick (a draft pick that doesn't even come in the first TWO rounds anymore at that)

 

Dumb ones wait too long (Orioles and Machado, Red Sox and Betts, Angels and Ohtani, etc...)

 

It sucks and the fans hate it at first but sometimes it's just the right thing to do

 

(All that said I still hope they can sign him long term but if feels like that might be a problem)

[wilko]

Smart organizations trade guys like this (top players who they know they can't keep long term due to cost/inability to reach an extension/desire to be somewhere else) with 1.5-2 years of control left rather than waiting for them to walk for a draft pick (a draft pick that doesn't even come in the first TWO rounds anymore at that)

 

Dumb ones wait too long (Orioles and Machado, Red Sox and Betts, Angels and Ohtani, etc...)

 

It sucks and the fans hate it at first but sometimes it's just the right thing to do

 

(All that said I still hope they can sign him long term but if feels like that might be a problem)

 

The Tampa Bay way.

[Brownie19]

If we trade our best offensive player when our offense is the clear weakness then hell ya, the sky is falling.

 

Based on the track record of Shatkins, my overreaction has been more on point than you're "everything the Bluejays do is great" approach lol.

 

I was going to ask you to elaborate on this and provide some receipts, but on second thought - just don't. Thanks.

[Sorrow]

I'd be open to moving Bichette for the right return but in my opinion that has to include Hoerner and I don't think the Cubs would move him. There are no good SS options on the free agent market and we have no good starting candidates. I also like Morel as he has good tools but hasn't put it all together but even something like Hoerner ++ would be a good move. Gives you an extra year of control at SS where all our prospects of note have been moved to other positions and maybe you can get a guy like Caissie.

[Brownie19]

Atkins success rates in descending order:

 

Signing free agent pitchers

 

Signing stop gap 1 year free agent position players

 

Drafting

 

Contract extensions

 

Trades

 

I think you have trades too low man. He's had some good hits along the way. Chapman, Teo, Swanson/Macko, Berrios, Whit, Matz, Richards/Francis, Cimber, Giles, Robbie Ray. The biggest "miss" is obviously Varsho and there's 70 pages of discussion on that. Was his next biggest "miss" trading for Mitch White? That can't be considered that bad guys. Best argument is he gave up a lot of "value" to get Berrios and then had to pay them a s*** ton of money, but the value of the guys he traded plummeted.

 

I might put trades over drafting?

[Sorrow]

I think you have trades too low man. He's had some good hits along the way. Chapman, Teo, Swanson/Macko, Berrios, Whit, Matz, Richards/Francis, Cimber, Giles, Robbie Ray. The biggest "miss" is obviously Varsho and there's 70 pages of discussion on that. Was his next biggest "miss" trading for Mitch White? That can't be considered that bad guys. Best argument is he gave up a lot of "value" to get Berrios and then had to pay them a s*** ton of money, but the value of the guys he traded plummeted.

 

I might put trades over drafting?

 

I almost feel like some of the time they draft players is it’s to just trade them.

 

I cannot find the article but there was one I read that someone in the FO said they basically drafted Martin and Hoglund to be traded as they weren’t super high on any of the picks in their draft slot but other teams were.

[G-Snarls]

I think you have trades too low man. He's had some good hits along the way. Chapman, Teo, Swanson/Macko, Berrios, Whit, Matz, Richards/Francis, Cimber, Giles, Robbie Ray. The biggest "miss" is obviously Varsho and there's 70 pages of discussion on that. Was his next biggest "miss" trading for Mitch White? That can't be considered that bad guys. Best argument is he gave up a lot of "value" to get Berrios and then had to pay them a s*** ton of money, but the value of the guys he traded plummeted.

 

I might put trades over drafting?

 

Actually yes. The Varsho trade carries too much recency bias

 

And the Berrios trade was great but oddly in part because Austin Martin never panned out...

 

Let's say:

 

Signing free agent pitchers

 

Signing stop gap 1 year free agent position players

 

Trades

 

Drafting

 

(it's hard to gauge extensions because it's really only been Berrios and Grichuk, and I don't know of failing to sign Vladdy and Bo long term is a good or bad rthing LOL)

[MikeM3]

Actually yes. The Varsho trade carries too much recency bias

 

And the Berrios trade was great but oddly in part because Austin Martin never panned out...

 

Let's say:

 

Signing free agent pitchers

 

Signing stop gap 1 year free agent position players

 

Trades

 

Drafting

 

(it's hard to gauge extensions because it's really only been Berrios and Grichuk, and I don't know of failing to sign Vladdy and Bo long term is a good or bad rthing LOL)

 

His trades and signings are very good. His drafting and development is non existent.

 

Obviously just trading and signing catches up to you because you start losing leverage and have to cover holes so you end up trading Moreno for Varsho because you don't have a single other CF anywhere in the system and you can't play your old FA signing Springer there and he makes a ton of money so you can't let him get hurt

Edited November 22, 2023 by MikeM3

[connorp]

Smart organizations trade guys like this (top players who they know they can't keep long term due to cost/inability to reach an extension/desire to be somewhere else) with 1.5-2 years of control left rather than waiting for them to walk for a draft pick (a draft pick that doesn't even come in the first TWO rounds anymore at that)

 

Dumb ones wait too long (Orioles and Machado, Red Sox and Betts, Angels and Ohtani, etc...)

 

It sucks and the fans hate it at first but sometimes it's just the right thing to do

 

(All that said I still hope they can sign him long term but if feels like that might be a problem)

 

I don’t think this is true. Most of the Top 1/3 market orgs that are trying to win a WS would just ride out the player to FA, rather than hurt their WS chances for prospects.

[connorp]

By “smart” teams, it’s just ones that need to be thrifty. The big name players are also going to be your more marketable guys. Some teams have bigger picture concerns rather than extracting every bit of value